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Safety Factor posted:I am glad I have only ever played with and against mono-faction armies. It cuts down on a lot of bullshit. Even the people in here writing lists with OPTIMAL chapter tactics for specific units is a step too far for me. I am well aware that such forces could exist and are justified by the fluff, but not for me. I think a mixed force loses narrative cohesion. No way - soup armies can be fluffy and have been justified in the fluff for decades. A rampaging horde of Chaos space marines summoning in Daemons, their calculated violent acts weakening the barrier between the real world and the immaterium has been a thing since second edition. Almost every other largeish Imperial battlepile drawing by GW has Guard and Space Marines together. Can it be abused? Sure. But it can be very fluffy whilst still allowing for rules interactions that have been clearly intended by GW. The keyword system isn’t some afterthought, and it’s not a mistake that the Daemon keyword appears on specialist troops in the CSM Codex. If you play Chaos, you need to let soup into your life - you are missing out on a lot of fun and story telling options.
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Feb 12, 2018 08:53
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I remember back when I first played 5th edition I just sort of crammed what models I had into a tournie list and drank a lot of beer between rounds, not caring what happened. I played Black Legion back then which was a good excuse for mixing cult troops and painting every single unit different colors because chaos army uniformity is for jerks. People who obsess over meta can get hosed is what I'm saying. Good for them I guess.
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Feb 12, 2018 09:42
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Always love a 'gently caress you, people having fun wrong!' from 'fun, casual' players.
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Feb 12, 2018 09:49
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Milotic posted:No way - soup armies can be fluffy and have been justified in the fluff for decades. A rampaging horde of Chaos space marines summoning in Daemons, their calculated violent acts weakening the barrier between the real world and the immaterium has been a thing since second edition. Almost every other largeish Imperial battlepile drawing by GW has Guard and Space Marines together. Forces of the Imperium coming together to fight a prince is one thing, having the Throne Room Philosophers alongside the Loophole Zealots, the Anti-Psychic Wetworks, a quarter-force of Vampire Supermen, and a commander with half a scrunthairs worth of guardsmen is another. All it's missing is some sisters of silence backing up the ecclesiarchy to be a complete grab bag. And again most people here aren't even decrying this in competitive tourneys. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 10:53
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Corrode posted:Always love a 'gently caress you, people having fun wrong!' from 'fun, casual' players. This actually forced me out of a league starting up in my area. One of the rules the organizer put down was "No Imperial/Chaos Soup". So I wasn't able to play with my Radical Inquisition list I've been building since it's Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers), Adeptus Ministorum (Deathcults, Crusaders, Arco-Flagellants,Rhino), Inquisition (Inquisitor, Daemonhosts), and Astra Militarum (Heavy Weapon Squads as Lascannon Servitors). I'm pretty bummed because leagues really keep me on track for building/painting, and now I've just stalled.
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Feb 12, 2018 11:06
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Red Hood posted:This actually forced me out of a league starting up in my area. One of the rules the organizer put down was "No Imperial/Chaos Soup". Did you ask the guy directly about this? People tend to be really flexible if you ask them nicely and are clearly not trying to rort the system.
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Feb 12, 2018 11:50
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When did the term "soup" become a thing? It's as irritating as bubblewrap and all the other lovely things that have cropped up over the years.
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Feb 12, 2018 12:06
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Red Hood posted:This actually forced me out of a league starting up in my area. One of the rules the organizer put down was "No Imperial/Chaos Soup". Anti-mix rules kind of put players in a lovely situation that GW itself created by releasing so many unnecessary spin-off imperial codexes. Inquisition needs one over-codex, not two demi-codexes of special-ops marines, a codex of extra-religious people featuring some inquisitors, and also a holding list for the hyper-intelligent monkies and b-list assassins.
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Feb 12, 2018 12:42
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ANAmal.net posted:I have a single Space Wolf model in my cabinet right now, that TheChirurgeon gave me to give to ShadowDaesh, and I'm legit considering stealing him and calling him a Wolf Guard Battle Leader so I can throw him in an Auxiliary detachment and use that Strategem. I'm doing an escalation league, so the narrative I'm playing with is an understrength Wolves detachment investigating reports of Chaos incursions on an Imperial world. They've been having off and on running fights with traitors (most recently Death Guard), and have encountered a detachment of Dark Angels under a LT who is completely silent about their purpose here beyond rooting out Chaos, and who is willing to provide support if it gets them closer to the Chaos Lord responsible. This week's 1000 point build is two patrols, one DA LT, some scouts, and some hellblasters on one side, and a Wolf Lord, Wolf Priest, Lone Wolf, and Intercessors on the other. 
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Feb 12, 2018 12:44
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Lungboy posted:When did the term "soup" become a thing? It's as irritating as bubblewrap and all the other lovely things that have cropped up over the years. Combined arms sound too cool to be a negative thing and you can't talk about thing you don't like in a reasonable way. Hence, Soup!
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Feb 12, 2018 12:45
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How and why does soup have a negative connotation?
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Feb 12, 2018 13:08
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Der Waffle Mous posted:How and why does soup have a negative connotation? gently caress if i know, i goddamn love soup! Perhaps they were fed soup in the american midwest, where i'm led to believe that salted beef might be too spicy for some? and that people wash minced meat after cooking to get rid of anything resembling taste?
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Feb 12, 2018 13:11
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Der Waffle Mous posted:How and why does soup have a negative connotation? Comparatively high salt concentration, maybe kind of hot if you don’t blow on it first... I don’t mind mixed armies generally, but I dislike armies that pull multiple theme options for the same types of units. Not a fan of, eg, Blood Angels plus Raven Guard, or a Tyranid force from multiple hive fleets.
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Feb 12, 2018 13:14
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MasterSlowPoke posted:They should have done something crazy for it, like just have it be Damage 6 straight up. Basically a ranged Reaper Chainsword. There's a good amount of weapons that do do 1, 2 or 3 damage, and then you have reaper chainswords doing a flat 6. Then you seem to either get 1d3 or 1d6. But nothing that does a flat 4 or 5. I find it odd that they avoided those damage values. Or, that we don't see any kind of damage outputs that are 1d3+1 or 1d3+2 or anything like that. 6 flat damage may be a bit much for a vindicator, but going to a flat 4 damage would be a nice improvement.
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Feb 12, 2018 13:18
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Thanqol posted:Did you ask the guy directly about this? People tend to be really flexible if you ask them nicely and are clearly not trying to rort the system. If it's a new league then ideally the guy running it would be open to tweaking things based on feedback. I doubt the organizer intends to prohibit thematic lists. Addressing the issue with the organizer directly and asking for clarification would be appropriate. A more permissive rule might be worth exploring, such as "Armies shall be Battle Forged and thematically appropriate; armies composed of multiple Detachments that share an overarching keyword (such as Imperial or Chaos) shall be constructed with the intent of achieving a particular theme and not purely for competitive advantage."
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Feb 12, 2018 13:26
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Der Waffle Mous posted:How and why does soup have a negative connotation? I think the negative connotation is because "Imperial Soup" is typically associated with competitive play. It's assumed that the composition is purely for competitive advantage and not because the player wanted to achieve a particular theme.
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Feb 12, 2018 13:30
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Sulecrist posted:Comparatively high salt concentration, maybe kind of hot if you don’t blow on it first... I have to agree, but that's only because it makes chapters feel less like trade-offs. If Kronos makes Tyranid ranged better, and Behemoth makes Tyranid melee better, of course you'll make your melee Behemoth and your ranged Kraken.
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Feb 12, 2018 13:34
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Der Waffle Mous posted:How and why does soup have a negative connotation? Maybe it's an idea that stems from, "too many cooks in the pot"? People weren't happy with the allies chart, which led to UNBOUNDtm which led to what is 40k now. While it does afford a great deal of flexibility and allows people to make their super special forces, it also allows whatever the gently caress you can jam in there so, lists like that happen. People can justify it however they want, it doesn't make it feel any less garbage.
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Feb 12, 2018 13:44
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That might be overthinking it a bit, a soup is a big mix of ingredients and so a soup army is a big mix of factions. It's negative because it isn't a serious military sounding word as somebody up the page said. 40k of course being the most serious setting ever and totally not a load of 80s pulp scifi tropes bolted to eachother.
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Feb 12, 2018 14:14
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It's because you can already mix and match whatever you want in narrative or open play while matched play is supposed to be somewhat balanced.
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Feb 12, 2018 14:18
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To be fair, I'd argue that 8ed seems pretty balanced compared to a lot of prior editions, so clearly they thought some of the soup stuff through. Also while i'm no fan of the "pull everything good from 5 armies and dump it in a list" approach outside competitive, I will say it made no sense to have pretty much no imperium crossover. There could be more bonuses for mono armies, but at least they have the framework for it with stuff like regiments and chapter tactics and faction-locked vehicles.
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Feb 12, 2018 14:25
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Soup is fine; You can produce similar 'dumb' (if you feel that way) lists mono faction, anyway. The issue is more that 8th is probably the edition where basic Troops are the least relevant they've been since back in 2nd, and various 'odd' units or characters are hugely strong. Add in the ways to abuse the character targeting rules, and it's not so much soup that's the issue, really. I mean, you could just keep taxing yourself 3x5 Scouts and run 3x Blood Angel TH/SS/Jump Captains anyway, and that's 552 points. Rinse & repeat until you hit the number of points/CP you're aiming for. Stick the Scouts out of LOS that prevents you targeting the Captains, toss Captains into combat as a collective wrecking ball. The soup just turbocharges it all, with Celestine/Kurov's/Grand Strategist buffs and CP recycling, but it'd still be a pretty stupid thing. (Obviously you could probably with effort make something probably much nastier, I'm just trying to illustrate it's not the soup option itself that's the problem.)
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Feb 12, 2018 14:35
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Lungboy posted:When did the term "soup" become a thing? It's as irritating as bubblewrap and all the other lovely things that have cropped up over the years. One of the worst things about Warhammer
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Feb 12, 2018 16:22
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Every hard Guard list is a "leafblower" despite 99% of them being nothing like the one list that got dubbed that.
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Feb 12, 2018 16:25
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I just noticed, Ynnari have no access to any stratagems, correct? Including in Chapter Approved?
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Feb 12, 2018 16:43
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Zuul the Cat posted:I just noticed, Ynnari have no access to any stratagems, correct? Including in Chapter Approved? Yeah they got nothing in chapter approved. Technically they don't have objective secured either. It's kinda dumb. I know that hating on some competitive Ynnari list is cool right now but if you were legitimately interested in the fluff and the combined eldar force going into 8th it's kinda stupid right now. My wife has kind of shelved her mixed eldar models. It doesn't even feel like they mean for them to get a codex?
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Feb 12, 2018 16:50
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Lungboy posted:When did the term "soup" become a thing? It's as irritating as bubblewrap and all the other lovely things that have cropped up over the years. what the gently caress else are we going to call it? and who the hell doesn't like bubblewrap?
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Feb 12, 2018 16:54
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To be fair, in-fluff the Ynnari are a strained combination of three factions that normally dont care for each other and operate wildly differently. In that context there being no stratagem for them makes some sense, because what sort of strategy would Method Actors, rear end in a top hat Wizards, and rear end in a top hat Torturers all agree on?
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Feb 12, 2018 17:15
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The one which involves being an rear end in a top hat or acting like one, presumably.
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Feb 12, 2018 17:27
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Corrode posted:Always love a 'gently caress you, people having fun wrong!' from 'fun, casual' players. 
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Feb 12, 2018 17:29
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That Eisenhorn model is available for pre-order for retailers. 35USD
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Feb 12, 2018 17:40
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The Sex Cannon posted:what the gently caress else are we going to call it? "Allied"? "Combined"? "Mixed"? "Bublewrap" is poo poo because there's already a specific military word for its usage in 40k. "Screen," or "screening." As in, the carrier is protected by an inner screen of destroyers and frigates, with an outer screen of attack submarines. These lovely buzzwords come about because people keep thinking that they are some sort of strategic ham genius for 'inventing' tactics that have been in use for centuries, if not millenia. Then whatever idiotic nomenclature they append gets adopted and repeated ad-nauseam by the people who for whatever reason wont make their own lists, and flock to lovely sits like BoLS. From there it spreads to the community at large, like a bleeding verruca.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:06
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Zuul the Cat posted:I just noticed, Ynnari have no access to any stratagems, correct? Including in Chapter Approved? Just the ones that are unlocked in other detachments. So all of them.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:10
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Safety Factor posted:loving filthy casuals, am I right? Luv2be chill and casual and also weirdly aggressive about people who don't play by my own artificial rules
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Feb 12, 2018 18:16
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Corrode posted:Luv2be chill and casual and also weirdly aggressive about people who don't play by my own artificial rules Anyone who has to keep insisting that they're only a casual fun player like their life depended on it goes immediately on my shitlist. Especially fuckant neckbeard grog-lords who cart around every codex and mouthbreathe over your shoulder watching you with book open just waiting for you to make the single rules mistake gaijbgabsbgsbdgiubasbgg. I had a bad game recently.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:22
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:"Allied"? "Combined"? "Mixed"? oh yeah, we better remove innocuous, fun terms from our loving plastic toy soldiers in space game gotta take our military strategy real serious, over here
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Feb 12, 2018 18:22
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It's nothing to do with being serious about the game or strategy, i dislike the method of their creation, and utterly despise the opacity and insularity their use creates. Running into a wall of unexplained buzzwords and unnecessary abbreviations when you're trying to read about any subject is loving miserable, and it's something that absolutely plagues online ham chat.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:30
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The Sex Cannon posted:gotta take our military strategy real serious, over here DANGER CLOSE!
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Feb 12, 2018 18:30
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Bubblewrapping is actually a really good and descriptive term. There is a very clear connotation of using the bubblewrap to protect a specific thing and even if the person you're talking to has never heard the term before it will be very easily evident what you're talking about. The soup stuff on the other hand just sounds sort of dumb to me and is a bit more forced but it's not like I'm going to have a rage stroke if I hear someone talking about it. The real issue there is that I almost always see people use the term when talking about power-gamey list building which understandably some people have an issue with. Lovely Joe Stalin posted:It's nothing to do with being serious about the game or strategy, i dislike the method of their creation, and utterly despise the opacity and insularity their use creates. Running into a wall of unexplained buzzwords and unnecessary abbreviations when you're trying to read about any subject is loving miserable, and it's something that absolutely plagues online ham chat. That's basically any game, be it online or off though. Look at discussion around a game like Overwatch and you'll see way more stuff like this than hams could ever hope to match. Pendent fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Feb 12, 2018 |
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Feb 12, 2018 18:30
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It doesn't have to be this way! We can build a better world, you and I. We just been to more dickish and crochety about language on the internet. We can do it if we believe.
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Feb 12, 2018 18:38
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