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TheAgent posted:You can tell things are getting bad because the leaks are all becoming very circular. Sad! Can you ask if they'll at least add procedurally generated birds?
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Feb 16, 2017 23:44
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Zzr posted:I don't feel bad for them. Outside of contractors or short term contracts, anyone who worked at CIG and co for years participate at least passively in this scam. I hope this will be an indelible stain on their resume. I can relate believing in a project and putting your heart and soul into it but this isn't 2013 or "Hey our promises are kinda big and outlandish but we are getting to work" 2014 or "Okay our release is this year, big game, scope expanded though so okay it's pushed" 2015 or "Alright we are a year late but we expanded the scope. THATS the reason we aren't releasing. Yep. Buy ships though." 2016 or "Here is an obviously fake demo. Buy ships. Buy more ships. Here is another fake demo. BUY SHIPS. BUY SHIPS. BUY SHIPS." it's almost six years in and they are still working for people that have taken advantage of thousands of people that have obvious mental deficiencies to the point where there will be marriages and families destroyed and a real world death toll from these people paying tens of thousands of dollars for obvious lies. I still support the 99% of the company that aren't responsible but at a certain point you lose your plausible deniability since you are the ones enabling this scam to continue by designing the new artwork and being the middleman between a talentless hack and autistic peoples wallets.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:45
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A Neurotic Corncob posted:praying that the backers imagination will continue to fill in the gaps. Doesn't it always? 
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Feb 16, 2017 23:45
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Space Crabs posted:This is where the rubber meets the road. This is where we see how desperate the backers are. They ran out of fake demos and are now spending all year to make a fake game. Backers will not understand why it is a fake game and be unable to parse the difference between a game and a fake game. Not quite sure yet. A good exploration sandbox on a big map would be the perfect illusion of progress and is relatively easy to make. Look how fast Ubisoft was able to turn Farcry 3 into Blood Dragon. Backer will proclaim "See ! the game is progressing !" and if done well it could still bring more $$$ to the furnace and even get some new cash from the few people that like sci-fi but not space ships. I still think the whole mess wont go belly up completely untill they release either a chapter of SQ42 or soon after you can buy ships with in game money TheAgent posted:They'll be rolling out the FPS kits/classes (it's been talked about since forever) soon enough. With ground exploration, I'm sure they'll do another hoverbike sale with the rovers. Ohh more technical debt ! I cant think of a (PC or console)game that has got away with selling "class" for money yet. Heroes with completely new playstyle and powers, yes, but the "norm" for class kits is unlocks from experience or "mission budget" from previous rounds played in a match. Cant wait to have them try balancing classes... aleksendr fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Feb 16, 2017 |
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Feb 16, 2017 23:46
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Daztek posted:Can you ask if they'll at least add procedurally generated birds?
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Feb 16, 2017 23:48
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Space Crabs posted:I can relate believing in a project and putting your heart and soul into it but this isn't Might be a case where even the devs working there are bound into it by sunk cost fallacy much like it's whales. (sunk effort fallacy? is that a thing?)I kinda feel bad for them, but to be honest, a lot of them are quite talented and obviously would do well at a real software studio, so my advice to them would be "find a better project to use your skills in, CIG will be a bad sticky stain on your resume's".
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Feb 16, 2017 23:50
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TheAgent posted:Birds 1.0 is in 4.0, they need the new Subsumption and Item 2.0 systems done first, as well as Fauna 1.0  Real question: Will the planet be an actual planet or just a flat map?
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Feb 16, 2017 23:50
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Daztek posted:
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Feb 16, 2017 23:52
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Daztek posted:
Fap map. Lumberyard is good at those, like wankpods.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:54
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boviscopophobic posted:yet to fund this activity they will need to make yet more promises in order to sell even more ships, ground vehicles, weapons, real estate, etc. The next CIG cash cow will be Capitol Ships. Capitol ships of all kinds.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:55
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TheAgent posted:hello flyingpigs.gifv I don't disagree with the scaled back scope of the above, but I think CIG is going to gloriously fail at even this. When you try and build a mcmansion on a sand trap...
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Feb 16, 2017 23:56
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Hav posted:Yeah, I was aware and thought they'd slacken off after they got their 2.6 MvP out. Continuing at crunch rate has to be hitting some labor laws, but they'll definitely start burning out people that presumably have some tribal knowledge embedded from the last few years. Crunch is incredibly inefficient after a certain point in a creative business like game development. It works for a few weeks, then you're basically just burning people out for what amounts to a lower/worse output compared to letting them have a healthy work/life balance. It's evil AND stupid.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:56
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DapperDon posted:The next CIG cash cow will be Capitol Ships. Capitol ships of all kinds. Sorry, pet peeve.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:57
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TheAgent posted:Crunch has already been over a full year at this point, with zero chance of it stopping. Stick a pirate hat on Roberts and call him Cap'n Crunch.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:57
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C-Bangin' it 
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Raskolnikov posted:flyingpigs.gifv we are getting very close to the "Survival game" event horizon.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:58
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goons visiting r/starcitizen today I'm glad of it
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Feb 16, 2017 23:58
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Wiz posted:Crunch is incredibly inefficient after a certain point in a creative business like game development. It works for a few weeks, then you're basically just burning people out for what amounts to a lower/worse output compared to letting them have a healthy work/life balance. It's evil AND stupid.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:59
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If they put a planet in, they'll sell building plots and space bungalows. The concerns over water not working are no doubt due to the swimming pools needed for the luxury mansion market. Also cars, he'll going to sell exotic cars again, only pretend ones this time.
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Feb 16, 2017 23:59
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I could care less about your mute point when you tow the line of correctness.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:01
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Sabreseven posted:Might be a case where even the devs working there are bound into it by sunk cost fallacy much like it's whales. Sunk effort fallacy is very real (it's still called sunk cost fallacy, but here the cost is time invested rather than money). It's rampant among the extremely inexperienced. Established masters of their trade know when things are going south or not, and cut their losses. Inexperienced employees do not - they're more likely to stick with it, and make it even worse by mistaking ignorance for loyalty, thus giving themselves the moral high ground while simultaneously wasting their lives away.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:01
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Wiz posted:It's evil AND stupid. Ford – “Quality is job one” IBM – “Think” Google – “Don’t be evil” Apple Computer – “Think Different” Cloud Imperium Games - "It's evil AND stupid"
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Feb 17, 2017 00:02
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TheAgent posted:please take chris's lead and hop into a time machine to relive the 1980's glory days of working at origin for 90 hours a week I crunched for all of 4 weeks last year, and that was way more than normal because I was working on two different projects that both had upcoming releases (Stellaris and HOI4). I don't think I crunched a single week in 2015. When we did crunch, HR provided everyone with free dinner so we could just focus on hitting our goals. As a precision tool, crunch is useful when you need to push the bug count down or meet a specific target date, but as a blunt instrument it's stupid, cruel and wasteful.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:05
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Scruffpuff posted:Sunk effort fallacy is very real (it's still called sunk cost fallacy, but here the cost is time invested rather than money). It's rampant among the extremely inexperienced. Established masters of their trade know when things are going south or not, and cut their losses. Inexperienced employees do not - they're more likely to stick with it, and make it even worse by mistaking ignorance for loyalty, thus giving themselves the moral high ground while simultaneously wasting their lives away. This is incredibly applicable and applies to other industries. I'm not in game design but I've seen the same concept applied to a multitude of situations.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:06
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Colostomy Bag posted:I could care less about your mute point when you tow the line of correctness. Could be worse.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41P8UxneDJE
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Feb 17, 2017 00:08
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On mobile and couldn't be bothered to gently caress with the autocorrect.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:11
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Wiz posted:Crunch is incredibly inefficient after a certain point in a creative business like game development. It works for a few weeks, then you're basically just burning people out for what amounts to a lower/worse output compared to letting them have a healthy work/life balance. It's evil AND stupid. Yes, but just before that burnout level you do actually get return from it. That's why it's so insidious. And not just return like "we got these fools to work 50% more hours for the same pay, muahaha!" Some parts of making a videogame can't be solved well by hiring more people, only by putting in more time. So you have really bad choices between delays or crunch. In an ideal world those choices would always be made to avoid crunch... but if you're in the thick it and you have passion for your project, you might do it of your own volition. e: oh right you're the paradox guy, you know this! but for the benefit of other readers I'll leave it here. I happened to watch a video profile of this dude Daisuke Ishiwatari, the lead developer of Guilty Gear. In it he mentions that back when he started his studio, he spent more than a year living at the office in crunch. Which is loving crazy, but at least in that case he was the boss, and he was rewarded for his work. A lot of the fuckery of crunch these days is that it takes the stories of what people did when they had ownership, stock options, or other big incentives, and tries to apply it to people who are just getting a regular salary. Klyith fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 00:12
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AP posted:If they put a planet in, they'll sell building plots and space bungalows. The concerns over water not working are no doubt due to the swimming pools needed for the luxury mansion market. Its working for Gariott, so why not for him ? In time, people will forget about the 100 space systems and be happy to live in the 100 km map.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:12
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Wiz posted:I crunched for all of 4 weeks last year, and that was way more than normal because I was working on two different projects that both had upcoming releases (Stellaris and HOI4). I don't think I crunched a single week in 2015. When we did crunch, HR provided everyone with free dinner so we could just focus on hitting our goals. As a precision tool, crunch is useful when you need to push the bug count down or meet a specific target date, but as a blunt instrument it's stupid, cruel and wasteful. maybe you don't understand game development
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Feb 17, 2017 00:13
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D_Smart posted:Yeah. So I post there regularly as part of my plan to keep them on a constant state of anxiety over at /r/ds/ Derek, fess up, do you have share in anti-anxiety drug companies? Is that where you made your money over all these years? ........ Master Troll Move!
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Feb 17, 2017 00:13
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TheAgent posted:look, mr game developer Clearly, CIG are just doing new things that nobody has ever done before, like crunching for a whole year. ... I wish the first part of that statement was true.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:15
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Klyith posted:I happened to watch a video profile of this dude Daisuke Ishiwatari, the lead developer of Guilty Gear. In it he mentions that back when he started his studio, he spent more than a year living at the office in crunch. Which is loving crazy, but at least in that case he was the boss, and he was rewarded for his work. A lot of the fuckery of crunch these days is that it takes the stories of what people did when they had ownership, stock options, or other big incentives, and tries to apply it to people who are just getting a regular salary. Also take into account Japanese corporate culture in the equation. 60h week is nearly the norm for them and business owners are expected to be married with the business and spend nearly all avaiable time there. Japanese wife and girfriends dont bitch when you have to work late or have to come in on a saturday.  Kitten after crunch time. aleksendr fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 00:19
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Scruffpuff posted:Sunk effort fallacy is very real (it's still called sunk cost fallacy, but here the cost is time invested rather than money). It's rampant among the extremely inexperienced. Established masters of their trade know when things are going south or not, and cut their losses. Inexperienced employees do not - they're more likely to stick with it, and make it even worse by mistaking ignorance for loyalty, thus giving themselves the moral high ground while simultaneously wasting their lives away. Ah, I didn't know that, thanks Yeah, I'm totally calling it now that the dev's determination to continue working at that place and being nonchalant to the lasting effect on their career is down to sunk effort fallacy. Heck I can kinda empathise with them if it is that, we've all kept plugging away at something even though in our minds we know some things can turn into a lost cause. (In my case it's usually something simple like trying in vain to turn a seized nut on a resto project without snapping the bolt though lol) 
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Feb 17, 2017 00:23
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Feb 17, 2017 00:24
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Sabreseven posted:Ah, I didn't know that, thanks Honestly, I've never known a game studio to hold past work on doomed pie in the sky projects against people when hiring. Hell, in my experience the majority of game developers have worked on such projects at least once. I mean, sure, if you were directly responsible for the mess it's one thing but Bob the 3D artist doesn't exactly set the production schedule. Even causing the mess is forgivable if you can show you've learned from it. We've all been there. Wiz fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Feb 17, 2017 |
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Feb 17, 2017 00:27
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Wiz posted:Crunch is incredibly inefficient after a certain point in a creative business like game development. It works for a few weeks, then you're basically just burning people out for what amounts to a lower/worse output compared to letting them have a healthy work/life balance. It's evil AND stupid. Gamasutra: The Game Outcomes Project, Part 4: Crunch Makes Games Worse quote:Part 4 in a 5-part series analyzing the results of the Game Outcomes Project survey, which polled hundreds of game developers to determine how teamwork, culture, leadership, production, and project management contribute to game project success or failure. quote:Our results clearly demonstrate that crunch doesn't lead to extraordinary results. In fact, on the whole, crunch makes games LESS successful wherever it is used, and when projects try to dig themselves out of a hole by crunching, it only digs the hole deeper.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:31
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Stupid, cruel and wasteful basically sound like Chris Roberts' core leadership philosophy
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Feb 17, 2017 00:31
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Wiz posted:I crunched for all of 4 weeks last year, and that was way more than normal because I was working on two different projects that both had upcoming releases (Stellaris and HOI4). I don't think I crunched a single week in 2015. When we did crunch, HR provided everyone with free dinner so we could just focus on hitting our goals. As a precision tool, crunch is useful when you need to push the bug count down or meet a specific target date, but as a blunt instrument it's stupid, cruel and wasteful. Pfft like you know anything about game development! super excited for that Stellaris DLC, I want to see what terror happens to my space ant farm this time!
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Feb 17, 2017 00:40
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Crunch for a day every now and then is fine, or something like a week once a year, if you're trying to hit some important deadline. More than that and the boss should be hearing "extraordinary work has extraordinary requirements", by which you obviously mean shitloads of money next payday and 3 months of vacation next year. If you're going to make yourself rich by using me, make me rich too, bitch.
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Feb 17, 2017 00:41
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