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Negligent posted:I feel there is a big gap in the article, specifically if you are flying low and slow in order to shoot people on the ground, doesn't that equally mean its easy for people on the ground to shoot you Trying to shoot a low flying aircraft is really, really hard. Planes do get dinged with small arms fire but those don't tend to do a great deal of damage.
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Sep 21, 2015 11:09
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Fangz posted:Trying to shoot a low flying aircraft is really, really hard. Planes do get dinged with small arms fire but those don't tend to do a great deal of damage. There are these things called MANPADS, though...
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Sep 21, 2015 11:11
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:There are these things called MANPADS, though... Yeah. I must admit, I'm not sure how effective they are against fixed winged aircraft - you hear more of them being used vs helicopters. I guess the quality of the weapon, the training of the operator, and the countermeasures available all make a difference.
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Sep 21, 2015 11:25
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nothing to seehere posted:While it's not a book, the Revolutions podcast (same guy who did History of rome) has a series on the ECW which I found informative all the way up to the restoration of the monarchy. This needs to be pointed out in far more bold fashion, because the Revolutions podcast is incredibly good. I don't know how many he's going to cover, but he's just wrapping up the French revolution now. It's pretty good. E: wiki says 8-12 revolutions. France is the third, he's basically going all the way up through Cuba 1959, so holy poo poo. Haiti is next. For scale, he started this podcast in September of 2013, on a roughly weekly basis (taking about a month off between revolutions) and is just wrapping up the first ~1/3 to ~1/4 of the plan or so. It's a good pace and he's way more tolerable than the History of WWII (primarily the history of Winston Churchill apparently) guy. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 11:31
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Fangz posted:Yeah. I must admit, I'm not sure how effective they are against fixed winged aircraft - you hear more of them being used vs helicopters. I guess the quality of the weapon, the training of the operator, and the countermeasures available all make a difference. You probably don't hear of them being used against fixed wing aircraft because in an environment with MANPADs but no enemy aircraft, fixed wing aircraft tend to go for high and fast instead.
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Sep 21, 2015 11:43
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HEY GAL posted:you mean my war's less interesting later appendage? How does it feel to be so wrong  Tomn posted:Can anybody recommend any good general overviews on the English Civil War? Preferably something that can be found on a Kindle. At work atm but I'll knock up a post when I get home mate. Got a shelf full  Off the top of my head though, God's Fury, England's Fire by Braddick or The English Civil Wars by Worden are good starts. The latter particularly is a nice slim introductory volume that is still very good on motivations.
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Sep 21, 2015 11:44
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FAUXTON posted:This needs to be pointed out in far more bold fashion, because the Revolutions podcast is incredibly good. I don't know how many he's going to cover, but he's just wrapping up the French revolution now. It's pretty good. And he did History of Rome for something like five years and 200? 300? episodes so he's already shown he can go the distance. The really early stuff is a bit rough but he quickly got a lot better. It's funny listening to him talking about taking a break for the honeymoon in HoR and now Mrs. Revolutions is having a second baby.
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Sep 21, 2015 12:17
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Antti posted:And he did History of Rome for something like five years and 200? 300? episodes so he's already shown he can go the distance. The really early stuff is a bit rough but he quickly got a lot better. History of Rome is definitely a great listen, though the sense of time sort of got lost on me because I showed up late and binged through a huge part of it. 
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Sep 21, 2015 12:35
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feedmegin posted:You probably don't hear of them being used against fixed wing aircraft because in an environment with MANPADs but no enemy aircraft, fixed wing aircraft tend to go for high and fast instead. Now consider the proliferation of man portable air defense systems over the last decades, where even the lovely ones are a big threat to your crop duster plane, and ask yourself the question why that article isn't a piece of poo poo. MANPADS wielded by shepherds, anti-tank guided missiles coming out the wazoo, ballistic missiles in the hands of the most tinpot of countries, and some people think the maxim gun will fix it all 
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Sep 21, 2015 14:39
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Koesj posted:Now consider the proliferation of man portable air defense systems over the last decades, where even the lovely ones are a big threat to your crop duster plane, and ask yourself the question why that article isn't a piece of poo poo. Considering I've never heard of any US aircraft, fixed wing or not, getting MANPAD'd in Afghanistan, I don't see how that applies. Like someone said before, Tucan's first and greatest weakness is that it goes low enough for HMGs to do a number on it.
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Sep 21, 2015 14:51
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JcDent posted:Considering I've never heard of any US aircraft, fixed wing or not, getting MANPAD'd in Afghanistan, I don't see how that applies. There's always an example. A quick glance at wikipedia also provides a number of instances of shoulder-fired missiles being used succesfully in Iraq: 2007 7 February – CH-46E Sea Knight from HMM-364 is shot down, by a shoulder-fired missile, in al-Karma, outside Fallujah, killing all 7 on board. 2 February – AH-64D Apache 02-5337 from A Company, 1st Battalion, 227th Aviation Regiment, 1st Air Cavalry Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division shot down by a combination of gunfire and a shoulder-fired missile, near Taji, killing the two pilots 2005 27 June – An AH-64D Apache from 3–3rd Aviation Regiment is shot down by a shoulder-fired missile near Mishahda, killing the two pilots. 2003 7 November – UH-60L Black Hawk 92-26431 from 5–101 Aviation Regiment shot down by a MANPAD near Tikrit; all four crew, and both passengers from the Department of the Army are killed. 2 November – near Fallujah, CH-47D Chinook 91-0230 of Detachment 1/F Company/106th Aviation Brigade shot down with an SA-7 missile; 16 soldiers killed, 26 wounded. 25 October – UH-60L Black Hawk 96-26653 From B co. 3-158 Avn. Regt. of the 12th Avn. BDE crashes and burns out after being hit by an SA-7 missile near Tikrit, 1 soldier injured quote:Like someone said before, Tucan's first and greatest weakness is that it goes low enough for HMGs to do a number on it. What kind of a conflict are you fighting where only HMGs are a threat at low level? Syria has seen ample use of more sophisticated weapons.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:10
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Koesj posted:There's always an example. A quick glance at wikipedia also provides a number of instances of shoulder-fired missiles being used succesfully in Iraq: Afghanistan? Iraq, too, if those are the only examples of MANPAD downings. Syria is a bit different, considering that the guerillas are at least in part funded and supplied by the US, and keep pilfering gov't stock. Afghanistan With Commies was different, and they still needed American provided stingers to down helos
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Sep 21, 2015 15:27
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FAUXTON posted:History of Rome is definitely a great listen, though the sense of time sort of got lost on me because I showed up late and binged through a huge part of it. I was listening through from the start and stopped somewhere near ish the end. I forget where exactly but between the Tetrarchy and Constantine. I should probably finish it at some point.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:36
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There's probably some good metallurgical reasons for what I am about to ask, but what exactly was stopping the soviets from lengthening the barrel on the F-34 gun to bring it up to par with the KwK40 L/48? Answering my own question, I'd hazard it was a simple case of the 85mm guns being available for immediate use combined with the better HE round in addition to that.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:43
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JcDent posted:Considering I've never heard of any US aircraft, fixed wing or not, getting MANPAD'd in Afghanistan, I don't see how that applies. If US aircraft are flying fast and high (because of MANPADs) then you won't generally hear about them getting hit by MANPADs (because they did the sensible thing and avoided them).
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Sep 21, 2015 15:46
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Xerxes17 posted:There's probably some good metallurgical reasons for what I am about to ask, but what exactly was stopping the soviets from lengthening the barrel on the F-34 gun to bring it up to par with the KwK40 L/48?  But yes you are right, the improved HE performance of the 85mm assured the S-54 would never come to light.
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Sep 21, 2015 15:51
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T___A posted:They did: Could you write a short effort post on the S-54 please? I'm curious about "what if" weapons that are reasonable concepts but didn't pan out. Edit: and naturally, since it has been in WoT since forever, good luck googling it! Xerxes17 fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 16:08
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ArchangeI posted:The A-29 Super Tucano: the reason why AAMGs remain relevant in the 21st century. Sure it wasn't another Christian missionary like in 2001?
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Sep 21, 2015 16:33
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Fangz posted:Yeah. I must admit, I'm not sure how effective they are against fixed winged aircraft - you hear more of them being used vs helicopters. They are bad news for fixed wing aircraft. Gulf War Airpower Survey data, A-10s lost by cause: 2/2 0925Z Loss IR-SAM 2/5 1500L Loss AAA 2/15 1335Z Loss A-10A SA-13 2/19 0622Z Loss OA-10A IR-SAM 2/22 1500L Loss A-10A IR-SAM 2/27 0932Z Loss OA-10A IR-SAM A-10s damaged by cause: 1/17 0700Z Damage A-10A AAA 1/17 1200L Damage A-10A AAA 1/23 1630L Damage A-10A AAA 1/29 0900L Damage A-10A AAA 1/31 1600L Damage A-10A AAA 1/31 Damage AAA 1/31 1015L Damage IR-SAM 2/1 Damage A-10A AAA 2/1 Damage A-10A AAA 2/2 Damage A-10A AAA 2/6 1100L Damage IR-SAM 2/11 1130L Damage AAA 2/11 Damage AAA 2/15 0830L Damage IR-SAM The A-10 took more AAA hits than anything else in that conflict, which makes sense because of its mission profile. But of the 8 that got hit by SAMs, 5 were lost. Compare to F-16s hit by SAMs: 1/19 Loss R-SAM 1/19 Loss R-SAM 1/21 Damage R-SAM 2/26 Damage IR-SAM 2/27 Damage IR-SAM And F-18s: 2/9 Loss IR-SAM 2/21 Damage IR-SAM 2/21 Damage IR-SAM 2/21 Damage IR-SAM 2/22 Damage IR-SAM 2/24 Damage IR-SAM The A-10 is really vulnerable to missiles. Low and slow is not where you want to be in a missile environment. Also, about that Motherjones article: Dead Reckoning posted:A shameful article, written by a bad person. Dude doesn't seem to grasp that ramp space was/is one of the major limiting factors on air operations, or the costs associated with standing up a new combat aircraft, or the importance of all weather capability in a country like Afghanistan.
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Sep 21, 2015 16:41
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JcDent posted:Afghanistan? Iraq, too, if those are the only examples of MANPAD downings. Syria is a bit different, considering that the guerillas are at least in part funded and supplied by the US, and keep pilfering gov't stock. First of all I'm not going to delve any deeper into specific relative success rates of MANPADS in those conflicts. As much as I'd like to, I ain't got the time. So forgive me in advance for my sophistry. I think you hit an interesting question from a MilHist perspective though: how and why is Syria different from what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan ~10 years earlier, regarding weapons employed? Or compared to Afghanistan in the 1980s for that matter? I'd pose that in the latter case, as well as in Syria, shoulder fired missiles had and have seemingly proliferated more (which might consequently be seen pretty clearly in loss rates etc.), but were up against less capable opposition anyway. I think feedmegin's point is very legitimate in that last regard: to my knowledge, standard operating procedures during OEF and OIF were to employ precision guided munitions (PGMs) from high altitude as a risk-mitigating measure, and technology enabled Coalition forces to do just that while maintaining (or even enhancing) effectiveness. This is something neither the Soviet Air Force 30 years ago, nor the Syrian AF right now, could do. Let's turn it around a bit then. First, literally bottom-up, 'A-stan with commies' and Syria are indeed '(a bit) different' because of way more effective foreign supply of advanced weaponry. The latter however is a perfect example of the increased democratization of those advanced systems over the last couple of decades IMO. Whereas a superpower had to (controversially) step in and supply them freedom-loving Mujaheddin in the 1980s, these days a bunch of rich dudes in the Gulf pool some money, go to their Russian, Chinese, or USian weapons dealer, and ship it over to the peace-and-tranquility-brigades in the region. To me, the difference here is the state of US involvement. As a supplier, they open up a shitload of possibilities in doing damage with advanced system. As an adversary, you don't want to be seen supplying precisely those arms that're used to, say, down precious US guys and gals. Can the US Military bank on this situation going on indefinitely, or even only into the next two decades though? I wouldn't plan for it if I were them. Top-down, why forego on the exact technological enablers that have made man portable air defense systems pretty much a non-starter against air strikes: PGMs dropped from high altitude at high success rates? This has been an on-going topic in the TFR thread, but the article you quoted is particularly retarded in that regard. It opens with an interfacing problem wrt wrong coordinates as a wholesale indictment against PGMs, it quotes Pierre Sprey - Luddite extraordinaire, it delves into problems with military procurement (and the F-35 in particular) even though PGMs have been a great cost/benefit success (years of unsuccessful bombing a Vietnamese bridge and they down it with the first use of a Paveway bomb), etc. The real stupidness that to me becomes apparent in the article, is how (a technological) two-bit opposition was able to stifle Coalition forces succesfully for years, in a perpetual failed state environment, where advanced weapons weren't really part of the enemy's repertoire. Do you plan for this? Do you buy propeller planes and hope for the best in a 21st century where, again, Joe Blow camelherder in Syria is plinking armored vehicles from 2.5 kms away with 'only' a 1980s anti-tank missile? What happens in your 2025 neocolonial war when a belligerent China 'accidentally' ships over some latest generation equipment? A couple of decades ago both the South Africans and Rhodesians did all kinds of kit-bash things to helicopters, transport planes, light aircraft, and the likes, in order to get some on-the-cheap air support running for their Bush Wars. This was successful up to a point, against the basest of opposition, but as soon as the Cubans started messing around in Angola (hybrid warfare? Or is this yet another anomaly?) they had to massively curtail offensive air ops. Then you get into the 90s and Executive Outcomes, a mercenary outfit, is flying MiGs and operating sophisticated SAM system. Not a problem for Western governments right now, but there's always Russian 'contractors' around. A sign of things to come maybe? And in the 2010s a European nation of 40+ million has to ground their fixed-wing aircraft because 'rebels' keep shooting stuff down (including passenger airplanes) with systems that keep USAF planners awake at night, tears running down their cheeks. e: I write bad on an iPad Koesj fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 16:49
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Koesj posted:This has been an on-going topic in the TFR thread, but the article you quoted is particularly retarded in that regard. It opens with an interfacing problem wrt wrong coordinates as a wholesale indictment against PGMs, ETA: assuming it's the same 2001 SpecOps self-bombing in Afghanistan and there aren't more that I'm not aware of...
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Sep 21, 2015 17:00
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re: air-to-ground missiles in Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan: Another thing that makes Syria a complete cluster gently caress on that front is the fact that it's a civil war and significant military stockpiles ended up in the hands of non-state militants. This isn't a situation where a fully functioning military has to think long and hard about 30+ year old stingers in god knows what operating condition and where the country involved is a democracy that doesn't want a front page CNN article every two months about another expensive as gently caress jet getting blown up and the associated drama surrounding the pilot. it's a situation where a military beset by defection and defeats has to worry about the missiles it bought from Russia 10 years ago and has been keeping in proper warehouse storage, and rather than Bush or Obama it's Assad who very clearly doesn't give two tin shits about things like "bad media coverage" or "how my polls look".
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Sep 21, 2015 17:14
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HEY GAL posted:my title is going to be War People because that's what my dudes call themselves (like most other groups, their word for themselves is People) and because it sounds like The Fierce People or something. the subtitle is going to be pompous and horrible, and i'll hate it I've always liked that convention-- I've read a much of maritime history and it's always nice to see phrases like "the ship's People" or whatever.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:16
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Cyrano4747 posted:re: air-to-ground missiles in Syria/Iraq/Afghanistan: I look at this and shudder at the thought of where these might turn up. Already problematic with the Libyan ones. Also lol at IS being listed as an operator here.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:17
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Xerxes17 posted:There's probably some good metallurgical reasons for what I am about to ask, but what exactly was stopping the soviets from lengthening the barrel on the F-34 gun to bring it up to par with the KwK40 L/48? A better 76 mm gun was available since 1941 (ZiS-5 with 3K ballistics since lol @ using non-confusing indices), it just wasn't deemed necessary. By the time it was necessary, it turned out you could stuff an 85 mm AA gun in the same turret as a 76 mm AA gun, so why not.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:18
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Rincewind posted:I've always liked that convention-- I've read a much of maritime history and it's always nice to see phrases like "the ship's People" or whatever. Does this book make Hey Gal a proper academic source for writing essays?
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Sep 21, 2015 17:40
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WW2 Data Soviet 107mm Projectiles is now up! What round could be fuzed for ricochet fire? Which one had 16 segments of thermite? Which fuze had a metal cap crimped onto it? Check out the post.
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Sep 21, 2015 17:54
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Rincewind posted:I've always liked that convention-- I've read a much of maritime history and it's always nice to see phrases like "the ship's People" or whatever. Interestingly, while my dudes are a Volk or a Leute, the peasants or buergers among whom they travel aren't--there's an edict from the Emperor among the papers I'm looking at telling them not to molest "the common man" or "commoners," and this convention is kept throughout. I've talked to a chick who does what I do for the 18th century and she said that 18th century soldiers are no longer a People. Her texts refer to "the men." Which is interesting, since her subjects are still a subculture. Think about all their little rituals, their elaborate uniforms, their drill, etc--as a group you could argue that her guys are more impressive than my guys. (Individually, my guys are more impressive.) But the...quasi-ethnic (?) flavor is gone. Edit: Probably because the legal independence is gone. The Mansfeld People's ultimate legal authority is Mansfeld, but all of Frederick The Great's dudes' legal authority is Frederick. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Sep 21, 2015 |
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Sep 21, 2015 18:30
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Having finally caught up with this, I want to commend all the posters here. Great stuff! I'm excited to learn more about the Polish-Soviet War and the Taiping. Hey Gal, your guys remind me a bit of the Knights Hospitaller of the same period. The Convent's records are full of "Fra X is confined to the tower for striking a brother at the table" and talking about how they get into fights over deceased Fras' belongings!
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Sep 21, 2015 18:52
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bewbies posted:Not publically at least, this is just starting to emerge from experimentation/conceptual stuff.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:19
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Friar John posted:and talking about how they get into fights over deceased Fras' belongings! Please tell me that this era had giant codpieces and/or one if these fights was recorded to be about said codpiece.  I'll also take defenestration as a good answer
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Sep 21, 2015 22:04
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Slaan posted:Please tell me that this era had giant codpieces and/or one if these fights was recorded to be about said codpiece. Let me tell you about the start of the Thirty Years' War. It was started by the Second Defenestration of Prague, which is my favorite historical event because it's a hell of a way to start a hell of a war, and because it means they had to start numbering the Defenestrations of Prague (as opposed to defenestrations in Prague that didn't start wars, eat your heart out Prussia).
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Sep 21, 2015 22:44
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Slaan posted:Please tell me that this era had giant codpieces and/or one if these fights was recorded to be about said codpiece.
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Sep 21, 2015 23:28
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HEY GAL posted:In German it sounds almost ethnic--when people from Mansfeld's regiment talk about members of another German regiment in Spanish service in Italy, for instance, they talk about Das Sulzsches Volck, "The Sulz People," while no doubt Sulz's guys are looking over the hill at The Mansfeld People. It's the same in Italian, Mansfeld talks about "mio gente." (Same in French too, there they are les gens de guerre). It's organic or something, these dudes are grown into their subculture with thick roots. If they don't leave a year or so after joining, chances are they're going to be in some army or another for most of the rest of their lives. I was just reading a paper touching on the hanjun, the ethnic Chinese banner armies. They've got the word Han right in the name, but they're a hereditary group that doesn't mix with Han civilians. Ethnicity can get very quasi. HEY GAL posted:you mean my war's less interesting later appendage? Are Wedgwood's ECW books as good as her 30YW one was?
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Sep 22, 2015 01:18
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Two people are arguing about grenades in GBS and it's surprisingly not terrible. The contention is whether fragmentation or the explosion is most lethal in grenades and I don't know enough on the matter to weigh in one way or another. I've always figured it was fragmentation but now I'm not sure. What's the consensus in here?
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Sep 22, 2015 01:42
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Frostwerks posted:Two people are arguing about grenades in GBS and it's surprisingly not terrible. The contention is whether fragmentation or the explosion is most lethal in grenades and I don't know enough on the matter to weigh in one way or another. I've always figured it was fragmentation but now I'm not sure. What's the consensus in here? Fragmentation, afaik. I've always seen hand grenades as being a contained explosion which propels fragments outwards in the hopes of hitting your target. The blast radius is rather small but it sends the fragments out to a great distance. Are there even any studies done on how effective grenades are? I know some of my books cover them in various detail but I doubt it would be enough to be conclusive on either side of the argument. Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 01:44
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Frostwerks posted:Two people are arguing about grenades in GBS and it's surprisingly not terrible. The contention is whether fragmentation or the explosion is most lethal in grenades and I don't know enough on the matter to weigh in one way or another. I've always figured it was fragmentation but now I'm not sure. What's the consensus in here? Let's put it this way: There is a reason why every country that developed concussion grenades had a fragmentation sleeve that was optional for it. The idea was that concussion grenades were lighter and could be thrown much further (think the German potato masher) which is very useful on the offense. On the defense you could employ gently caress off huge grenades that were impossible to throw beyond their lethal radius, since you were in an entrenched position. In this case fragmentation was all the rage because it was much more lethal and effective for clearing everyone off the approach to your parapet. Grenades are also generally too small to have the really bad over-pressure effects that can be lethal with artillery shells.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:46
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Frostwerks posted:Two people are arguing about grenades in GBS and it's surprisingly not terrible. The contention is whether fragmentation or the explosion is most lethal in grenades and I don't know enough on the matter to weigh in one way or another. I've always figured it was fragmentation but now I'm not sure. What's the consensus in here?
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Sep 22, 2015 02:04
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Does anyone know how those bundled German AT grenades work? Was there an extra fuse system on those or did the central warhead just set off all the others? Either way, one thing the frag grenades don't do well is damage armoured vehicles. The fragments don't puncture anything bullets can't.
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Sep 22, 2015 02:24
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Does anyone know how those bundled German AT grenades work? Was there an extra fuse system on those or did the central warhead just set off all the others? Central one set off the surrounding charges. And that's why you have anti-tank grenades for those and save your fragmentation ones for the soft-skinned targets.
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Sep 22, 2015 02:33
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