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Cemetry Gator posted:I loved it when he brought up DROs as a reasonable answer, even though a good chunk of this thread has been the Valhalla DRO offering drugs and weapons to children. Well, Rothbard (e: or one of the other clowns jrodefeld likes to alternatively bring up instead of an argument, and claim that he disagrees with in many areas) thinks that would be totally okay, but in earlier jrodefeld threads he stressed the point that he didn't agree you should be able to sell your kids. The fact that this is a matter of some dispute in an-cap circles should tell you something.
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Oct 12, 2014 23:14
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jonnypeh posted:Yes. That no-one here had any arguments and you were all trolling him.  Shine on, you crazy diamond.
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Oct 12, 2014 23:20
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jonnypeh posted:Yes. That no-one here had any arguments and you were all trolling him. We offered plenty of arguments, he just dismissed them out of hand as indicated in his very first post. He pretty much declared that anyone who didn't agree with him already wasn't worth talking to
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Oct 12, 2014 23:58
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He quoted posts, but he sure as hell never read them.
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Oct 13, 2014 00:11
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You're still lurking there, I know it! So I'll compose a new game for us all to play, and I'm sure in time you'll come to join us like the kid who is too embarrassed that he farted at the start of class but really does want to play with everyone else. The year is 201X, the government has fallen and through the sheer brilliance of your resolve and the devil's own luck, you have the world's only Statist Pod. The pod provides clean drinking water, both hot and cold, unlimited electricity and can theoretically transmit waves on any part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Sitting in your throne room of a converted city council chamber, lined with spoils of your original battle, you think it only fitting that the world now know a true ruler, the freest rule. You will form Libertopia. You don't quite remember how this came about, but as you wave a hand before your face to clear away the cloud of gnats that seemed to have temporarily taken up residence in your magnificent Norse beard, not an artifact of time but your sheer devotion to the viking lifestyle (and a monetary devotion to a costume shop), you know it does not matter. You are to rule now. In the chamber with you there are 6 men and 6 women looking at you expectantly, sitting up from the plush leather council seat you clear your throat and prepare to rule. What do you do? Obvious exits: South, West, Up.
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Oct 13, 2014 01:25
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RuanGacho posted:What do you do? We will sell the clean drinking water in exchange for useful artifacts from the ruins of the previous society.
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Oct 13, 2014 02:03
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StandardVC10 posted:We will sell the clean drinking water in exchange for useful artifacts from the ruins of the previous society. If anyone tries to pay us in gold, we bust their kneecaps.
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Oct 13, 2014 02:06
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RuanGacho posted:You're still lurking there, I know it! So I'll compose a new game for us all to play, and I'm sure in time you'll come to join us like the kid who is too embarrassed that he farted at the start of class but really does want to play with everyone else. I shall release my robot army upon the world to slay every man, woman, and child. A libertarian society is only possible with programmable citizens.
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Oct 13, 2014 03:39
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StandardVC10 posted:We will sell the clean drinking water in exchange for useful artifacts from the ruins of the previous society. You haven't established a currency yet. StandardVC10 posted:If anyone tries to pay us in gold, we bust their kneecaps. One of the 12 current citizens of libertopia looks skeptical at your economic plan. - The rest are sure it will work marvelously. QuarkJets posted:I shall release my robot army upon the world to slay every man, woman, and child. A libertarian society is only possible with programmable citizens. The Statist Pod can only do things that Statists can currently do, it interprets your input as "Microwave dinner." The Remnants of Humanity are obliterated by 80s on "High". You reload the last Save Point by quoting mises.org which you conveniently have printed out in it's entirety before whatever wiped out civilization as we know it.
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Oct 13, 2014 03:47
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Get Dennis
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Oct 13, 2014 03:57
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RuanGacho posted:What do you do? Freedom must be enforced. I try to convince the others that we should found an organization to ensure that the tyranny of government shall never rise again.
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Oct 13, 2014 03:57
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RuanGacho posted:You're still lurking there, I know it! So I'll compose a new game for us all to play, and I'm sure in time you'll come to join us like the kid who is too embarrassed that he farted at the start of class but really does want to play with everyone else. Shave. Return. The 12 people are standing there. I say "Do what you want, if you like!" The people disperse, and have a party and don't invite me. I lodge a complaint with my DRO. Everybody dies a few weeks later due to massive starvation.
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Oct 13, 2014 04:30
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RuanGacho posted:You're still lurking there, I know it! So I'll compose a new game for us all to play, and I'm sure in time you'll come to join us like the kid who is too embarrassed that he farted at the start of class but really does want to play with everyone else. Drink a Nuka-cola.
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Oct 13, 2014 05:13
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jonnypeh posted:I bought him that account. Thanks for doing so! Can you tell us how old he is, if just in general age cohort? I want to know if we're looking at baby's first political theory or if this is some entrenched bullshit. Also how is he doing with his recovery from the whiplash of opening with "Think for yourselves!" and then diving into "I don't need my own opinions, that's what Stefan Molyneux is for!"?
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Oct 13, 2014 05:39
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Voyager I posted:Thanks for doing so! Most of what I've got to say about Finnish-Anime-overlord has already been asked and answered, but I'm particularly interested in the age thing, if only out of morbid curiosity. As others have said, Shiranaihito came into this thread without any intent of really debating anything as far as I can tell. If he was interested in an actual discussion he wouldn't have included language in his first post that essentially consisted of 'if you disagree with me you aren't worth talking to' which is part of what makes me peg his age as quite young. If he is still interested in an actual debate (he's not) please ask him to return to the thread. I for one would be happy to actually engage him without any personal attacks, insults or anything else. A number of posters including myself voiced substantive critiques that he either didn't look at or chose to ignore so that he could bitch about how mean we were being when he came onto our forums and implied we all believe in extortion and government sanctioned murder.
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Oct 13, 2014 05:47
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Who What Now posted:Get Dennis You stare long and hard at Dennis, Dennis who was a father of five children. He posted on internet forums before the collapse, he had theories. Ideas. Dreams. He dreamed of a world without government. Where he wouldn't have to pay those damnable taxes. Those taxes were theft and full summation of the state's aggression against his person. He would be free one day. All he had to do was convince enough people how treacherous it all was and they could bring it all down. First they started voting for the party of "smaller government" and argued that their taxes weren't at an optimum market proficiency. Then Dennis voted in more and more representatives in his "democracy" that voted in his best interests to deregulate all corporate actions. Jobs were the most important measure of a societies' health after all and as long as everyone was working, as long as we achieved full employment and freedom from government we could only truly be in paradise. That is why Dennis was unconcerned when his Gwen, his oldest was sold into the hospitality industry, where she could best help party ideals. Tim and Jim, Dennis' twin boys worked on an oil rig until they fell off and died in the ocean. Dennis was well compensated for all three of course, rising in ranks of the party and shooting even further skyward as his younger daughters, having not yet previously emancipated themselves by running away were worth more potential compensation when they died in their jobs as an oven cleaner and fuel station attendant respectively at .50 a day. The oven was an unfortunate accident but the fuel attendant death was truly heinous as little Alicia didn't properly arm herself for defense as any 20 financial quarters old child should. The customer had every right to use the fuel he had overpaid for by her miscalculation to soak and ignite her. That made Dennis able to vote in the quarterly shareholder meetings without a party attendant. Somehow Dennis never really made it further than that however. When the collapse came Dennis was so sure of his non-aggression principles that he never saw it coming when you killed everyone he had any social connection to. Now he just gazes at you eagerly, waiting for your leadership despite the atrocities you've committed against him and his. Dennis thought he would be a leader, but he didn't anticipate someone like you, who would just pay off crimes against humanity at a discount by pre-purchasing your justice, judges and jury. Oh yes, you GET DENNIS. You GET DENNIS very well. Karia posted:Freedom must be enforced. I try to convince the others that we should found an organization to ensure that the tyranny of government shall never rise again. The Valhalla Dispute Resolution Organization has been commissioned, you are CEO. Cemetry Gator posted:Shave. Are you lonely Gator? Neeksy posted:Drink a Nuka-cola. You think it would be pretty silly to drink something that hasn't been invented yet, as Nuka-cola was invented by John-Caleb Bradberton in 2044.
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Oct 13, 2014 05:54
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Caros posted:Most of what I've got to say about Finnish-Anime-overlord has already been asked and answered, but I'm particularly interested in the age thing, if only out of morbid curiosity. Mid-30s. I'll pass on the message. Don't expect anything until the end of the workday in eastern Europe though.
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Oct 13, 2014 06:51
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jonnypeh posted:Mid-30s. I'll pass on the message. Don't expect anything until the end of the workday in eastern Europe though.  Well he still has time to re-evaluate his beliefs I suppose. I will say that while I don't plan to make fun of him, others most definitely will. Might I recommend you instruct him on the use of the 'ignore' feature before he comes back on? Wouldn't want him to get upset about peoples tone and miss actual discussion.
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Oct 13, 2014 07:13
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Cemetry Gator posted:I loved it when he brought up DROs as a reasonable answer, even though a good chunk of this thread has been the Valhalla DRO offering drugs and weapons to children. And what time we don't spend talking about how amazing Valhalla DRO would be is spent mostly pointing out how absurdly authoritarian and ineffective DROs would be if used in the way Libertarians intend. Like I'm still not clear on how two DROs having different laws is resolved other than "I hope they find an arbiter they both like!" or "The free market will totally intervene and the bottom 11% of the wealth will wage economic war on the top 89%!" (ironically, the latter answer is probably what would happen, but the free market would probably not come up with a resolution people who belong to that 11% would like). Or to use an example, as someone mentioned earlier, what happens when someone tries to sue someone else for statutory rape, but the two DROs disagree on the age of consent? You can't really find an arbiter for this because it's not a disagreement in the facts of the case, it's the laws behind it and neither party has any more claim that their law has priority over the other DRO's laws so the tie goes to the person getting sued.
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Oct 13, 2014 07:52
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jonnypeh posted:Mid-30s. That's...um... ...poo poo, I guess that makes me feel better about Americans on a relative scale.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:05
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DrProsek posted:Or to use an example, as someone mentioned earlier, what happens when someone tries to sue someone else for statutory rape, but the two DROs disagree on the age of consent? http://libertarianwiki.paulstudier.com/Age_of_consent posted:Anarcho-capitalists do not favor government setting any particular age of consent, because anarcho-capitalists are opposed to government's very existence. They favor instead that market forces determine the age of consent. In an anarcho-capitalist society, if someone engages in a relationship (whether a sexual relationship, or buyer-seller relationship such as an employer-employee relationship, etc.) with a young person, and an accusation is brought that the young person was not capable of consent, the accuser might bring the matter before a private court. The situation would be similar to the situation that exists when a person of one country accuses a person of another of some crime or tort. In some situations, arrangements might have been made by the courts to set up an inter-jurisdictional court to try such claims. But in others, one recourse might be to blacklisting and ostracizing the offender until he is willing to pay restitution. A court with a large customer base and a reputation for making sound decisions would likely be more influential in blacklisting an offender. It might also be possible in some cases to apprehend the offender by force, particularly if he has been ostracized by all the powerful security firms that are available to protect one's rights. tl; dr Old enough to be sold, old enough to be told. And if you violate enough EULAs through pedophilia you're a corporate unperson and can be hunted openly as a "free good"
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Oct 13, 2014 08:06
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So the NAP only applies until you can no longer afford private police coverage, at which point I guess people aren't supposed to mess with you according to their values, but if somebody decides to take you for a sex slave or whatever then it's just all  not my problem, shouldn't have let your coverage lapse buddy.Are DROs a serious part of Libertarian thought or is it just something internet wingnuts like to throw out because jesus gently caress they are horrifying. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 08:15
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Voyager I posted:That's...um... I think he's an aberration, considering the Finnish education system as a whole. He's very lucky Finland didn't have a Reagan to interrupt any possible cultural reckoning with the crimes of the past nor to dismantle the entire social safety net that still echoes three decades later. Although maybe not that lucky, because then he could see his ideals in action!
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Oct 13, 2014 08:19
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Voyager I posted:So the NAP only applies until you can no longer afford private police coverage, at which point I guess people aren't supposed to mess with you according to their values, but if somebody decides to take you for a sex slave or whatever then it's just all They're the forgone conclusion that they embrace with their trademark lack of thinking, much as our most recent visitor readily displayed. To me whats really scary is they will then turn around and try to lecture everyone on how police departments are the real horrors of force instead, as if a mercenary group beholden to no one will somehow magically work out better because freedom.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:22
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SedanChair posted:tl; dr Old enough to be sold, old enough to be told. And if you violate enough EULAs through pedophilia you're a corporate unperson and can be hunted openly as a "free good" I always love the blacklisting argument because of how loving ridiculous it is. Would you like an example?  Anyone know who that is? Her name is Leanne Bordelais if that helps. Still no? Well you might know her under her old name, Karla Homolka. For those of you not familiar, Karla Homolka, or Leanne Bordlais or Karla Teale, is a convicted Canadian serial killer who served twelve years after narrowly escaping a life sentence for the rape and murder of three young women, including her fifteen year old sister. She served the maximum allowable for a plea bargain (poorly handled imho) that was used to obtain evidence against her husband for the series or rapes and murders. She was released in 2005, and lived as a free woman in Canada for two years despite incredible public interest and scrutiny. After the birth of her first child, she decided to leave Canada for the Antilles, and effectively disappeared until an interested reporter named Paula Todd tracked her down in 2012 as part of writing a book about her. Last anyone knows she is living happily in Guadoloupe with her husband and three children. So what is my point? Well if Canada's most notorious Serial Killer can walk off and start a new life despite incredible interest in her and her life, what the gently caress makes libertarians think that blacklisting or shunning will have any effect at all beyond the occasional minor annoyance? My only thought is that they have a disturbed belief that the world functions like we are still in the 16th century, and getting a bad reputation will lead to a ruined life, when in fact anyone with that bad of a reputation can simply pack up, move a few hundred kilometers in any direction and start fresh without a care in the world. The funny thing is that the only answer I can come up goes back to the libertarian police state, where your new DRO will inform everyone in your new location that someone with a 1 star reputation for child mollesting has moved into the neighborhood, and then everyone there can shun them. Like some kind of futuristic reddit, but where pedophiles are shunned. Caros fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 08:30
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Voyager I posted:Are DROs a serious part of Libertarian thought or is it just something internet wingnuts like to throw out because jesus gently caress they are horrifying. Libertarians no, anarcho-capitalists yes. Libertarians accept the necessity of a state to arbitrate and enforce contracts, setting up a system of courts and laws. Anarcho-capitalists do not, and DROs are essentially the best thing they can come up with to explain how you can maintain capitalism in the absence of the state. Libertarians are more hypocritical, since they are apparently fine with violating the precious NAP as long as the state is doing things they want it to do. Ancaps are more consistent with their own strongly-held beliefs, but are completely divorced from reality.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:35
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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Caros posted:I always love the blacklisting argument because of how loving ridiculous it is. So an inherent feature of this landscape is some sort of messenger network laden with official documents that other DROs will have a high incentive to tamper with, intercept, misdirect and misinform. Being a notary will be like being a western journalist in ISIS territory. Yeah no way this can go wrong.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:39
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RuanGacho posted:So an inherent feature of this landscape is some sort of messenger network laden with official documents that other DROs will have a high incentive to tamper with, intercept, misdirect and misinform. Being a notary will be like being a western journalist in ISIS territory. Well I assume it will be Internet based. Somehow. We are already talking a fantasy world where libertarian society could actually exist. No reason to think they couldn't also fantastically keep the Internet running. Somehow.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:43
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SedanChair posted:tl; dr Old enough to be sold, old enough to be told. And if you violate enough EULAs through pedophilia you're a corporate unperson and can be hunted openly as a "free good" I like how many problems Libertarianism fixes with "just shun the unperson until they submit". Things like the age of consent being determined by
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Oct 13, 2014 09:17
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RuanGacho posted:You stare long and hard at Dennis, Dennis who was a father of five children. He posted on internet forums before the collapse, he had theories. Ideas. Dreams. He dreamed of a world without government. Where he wouldn't have to pay those damnable taxes. Those taxes were theft and full summation of the state's aggression against his person. He would be free one day. All he had to do was convince enough people how treacherous it all was and they could bring it all down. First they started voting for the party of "smaller government" and argued that their taxes weren't at an optimum market proficiency. Then Dennis voted in more and more representatives in his "democracy" that voted in his best interests to deregulate all corporate actions. Jobs were the most important measure of a societies' health after all and as long as everyone was working, as long as we achieved full employment and freedom from government we could only truly be in paradise. There is nothing left to do. Freedom is now come to all. I immediatize the estaschon.
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Oct 13, 2014 09:27
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RuanGacho posted:You stare long and hard at Dennis, Dennis who was a father of five children. He posted on internet forums before the collapse, he had theories. Ideas. Dreams. He dreamed of a world without government. Where he wouldn't have to pay those damnable taxes. Those taxes were theft and full summation of the state's aggression against his person. He would be free one day. All he had to do was convince enough people how treacherous it all was and they could bring it all down. First they started voting for the party of "smaller government" and argued that their taxes weren't at an optimum market proficiency. Then Dennis voted in more and more representatives in his "democracy" that voted in his best interests to deregulate all corporate actions. Jobs were the most important measure of a societies' health after all and as long as everyone was working, as long as we achieved full employment and freedom from government we could only truly be in paradise.
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Oct 13, 2014 10:23
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jonnypeh posted:Mid-30s. I'll pass on the message. Don't expect anything until the end of the workday in eastern Europe though. You should at least ask him to answer Caros' HOA question, because I think it's drat good. Caros posted:We can decide that the government (yet another social creation, just like money or property) has a moral right to collect taxation. They might even phrase it like: If my parents die, my sister and I will get their house, so we'll need his advice on how to protect our property from the murderers and thieves of their neighborhood HOA who lay a claim to my property, enslaving me for the fruits of my labor by the arbitrary whim of a perfidious democracy that has arrogated to itself the right to potentially unlimited amounts of money by majority vote. If I refuse to pay, they will put a lien on my house. If I still refuse, they'll foreclose. If I stay regardless, they'll send men with guns to evict me. If I put landmines in my yard and start sniping county sheriffs from my bedroom window, the HOA mafia will kill me. If all of this is actually okay with him because my parents agreed to the easement granting the HOA legal rights over the property when they bought the house, and my only choice is to agree to it or change the HOA agreement through majority vote or leave the property because I can't violate the HOA's property interest...then why isn't the Constitution a big-rear end easement on America that I accept by staying? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 13:54
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Actually come to think of it, that's probably exactly how the Libertarian totally-not-a-state-guys would function if their definition of the NAP became widely adopted. Assuming that it didn't prompt the complete collapse of human civilization to a depth that would make the Sea Peoples go "whoa hold on guys" of course, it'd likely end up much the same as Rabbinical Law. Delicate easements and contracts would enclose all of society like twine to "Welcome to Shady Dale Apartments! As you know, our property easement with AmericaCorp requires us to ensure that all tenants are registered for the Selective Service. Please sign this form; it's just the boilerplate agreement that comes standard with every apartment complex or HOA. AmericaCorp thanks you for your totally voluntary agreement in this mutually beneficial arrangement." "The loving draft. I hope McGovern wins it at the quadrennial shareholders' meeting this November so we can finally get that repealed once we kick out that rear end in a top hat CEO Nixon." VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Oct 13, 2014 |
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Oct 13, 2014 14:15
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Out of morbid curiosity, what exactly are the "time preferences" I've seen people making fun of in this thread? I haven't seen anyone use it unironically, so I assume it's something that's been done to death in previous arguments, but I wasn't around for those. If I had to venture a guess, it's just a shorthand for disagreements between workers and management, as in "I'd prefer to spend my time at the doctor's office getting this persistent cough checked out" vs. "I'd prefer you spend your time back in the loving mines where you belong," only with the expected Libertarian
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Oct 13, 2014 14:20
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It's what separates the negroid from the caucasoid. jrod was unclear on the mongoloid.
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Oct 13, 2014 14:27
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Jrodefeld posted about it, but I can't be assed to look for his posts. Essentially, an orphan wants to eat today and doesn't have the Anglo-Protestant self-discipline to put off his meal for a few years and invest in a business. On the other hand, a brave capitalist like Mitt Romney is willing to delay receiving a paycheck because
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Oct 13, 2014 14:42
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Wow. This thread did something over the weekend.
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Oct 13, 2014 15:03
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There's no point engaging with that Finn, he's dumb as a post. He's a true believer who found Molyneux and doesn't even understand him. Not like Molyneux is difficult to understand, the literal translation of his oeuvre is "angry violent man ripping the legs off Barbie dolls"
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Oct 13, 2014 17:02
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I'm just shocked that a grown adult in his 30s can type like that and not be embarrassed. The errors of punctuation and grammar make more sense now that we know English is probably a second language for him, but the tone is still so petulant and childish even in his opening remarks, and just became worse as well as bitter and resentful as it went on. The mindset of a libertarian would be scary if they weren't also all laughably inept.
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Oct 13, 2014 17:35
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VitalSigns posted:Jrodefeld posted about it, but I can't be assed to look for his posts. Ahaha, astounding. Thanks for the definition! I feel like I've seen this line of thought before though. Karpaw posted:It's what separates the negroid from the caucasoid. Ah, there we go. Is this a thing with one of the big names like Rothbard, or something Jrod came up with all by himself?
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Oct 13, 2014 18:03
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