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Klaus88 posted:
Armies.
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Sep 22, 2015 16:26
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Grenades are kind of dense and heavy. I've thrown a few, I would imagine the throwing motion they teach comes more from modified shot-put mechanics than anything else. You need to use a lot of hip and shoulder leverage more than arm strength to get good distance. A little practice and it's easy, qual courses have you thrown the grenade through a window out a pretty good way. E: I think we threw a live grenade as early as boot camp though I'm not certain now. Certainly dummy grenades were omnipresent. Murgos fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 16:39
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FAUXTON posted:Probably that it was more cumbersome and labor-intensive to produce, they had screw caps on the end to safe the fuse and lathe-turned wood handles, aka the same problem they had with practically everything they produced. There was also versions where they just quickly filed down and then glued together two halves of laminated wood - the german wood industry had a lot less backlog than he heavy industry as is. And then they switched to the Model 43, which just used a solid handle and the same fuse assembly as the Model 39 egg grenade, situated at the top of the charge. Fangz posted:Edit: Hell, the Chinese still use 'em today in reserve units - their top liners tend to have switched to dedicated grenadiers using magazine-fed grenade launchers. Chinese infantry in general just love their grenades traditionally.   Another advantage of the design is that it's less prone to rolling down slopes. Magni fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 16:50
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Tias posted:In Vietnam, viet troops were actually trained in this, that is, getting AK-47 riflemen together, and spraying in front of the helicopter on full auto. While the actual number of hueys brought down like this is a matter of hot debate, it certainly put a lot of pressure on airmobile troops. I thought that was just SOP for any light infantry facing a non-gunship helicopter at close distance? Magni posted:
That design might have the disadvantage that many conscripts are ending up in the lazaret after 'falling' on one. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 17:34
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Murgos posted:Grenades are kind of dense and heavy. I've thrown a few, I would imagine the throwing motion they teach comes more from modified shot-put mechanics than anything else. That's more of a demolition charge in a can than it is a grenade really. VVVV Arquinsiel fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 19:00
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Arquinsiel posted:Cricket balls are also rather dense and heavy. Proper grenade etiquette is important when your army supplies with lunacy like this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._73_Grenade A 1-pound grenade can be thrown any way you want and still get a good air time. A 5-pound impact-detonated grenade barely clears a street under optimal throwing conditions. 3.5 pounds of HE is not a number to be trifled with.
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Sep 22, 2015 19:33
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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago So what's the answer that would be a long time coming for the British? I'm curious now about that German Intelligence, if it takes months to figure out then I'll probably forget the significance.
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Sep 22, 2015 20:17
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hey guys
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 21:02
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HEY GAL posted:hey guys Images posted on imageshack never appear on the forums for me. Is it only my problem, or do other people have it too? e: Oh, edited.
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Sep 22, 2015 21:06
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Chamale posted:So what's the answer that would be a long time coming for the British? I'm curious now about that German Intelligence, if it takes months to figure out then I'll probably forget the significance. The Germans have spent the summer, since about the end of Second Ypres, systematically and comprehensively tapping the BEF's field-telephone network, which by this point is such a ridiculous mass of old wires and new wires going in every possible direction that it's virtually impossible to spot the one line that takes a left turn near Alberquerque Trench and heads off sausage-side. (IIRC the programme was begun after some German subaltern arrived in his newly-captured dugout and found the phone ringing as Brigade HQ tried to contact its previous occupant; there were also other methods of listening into a field-telephone that didn't require directly tapping the line.) BEF intelligence suspects that *something's* going on, but they won't realise the full scale of the tapping programme until (again IIRC) a sapper moving forward in the middle of the Somme goes to lay a new phone line across the old No Man's Land to the former German dugouts and finds that the job has already been done for him...
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Sep 22, 2015 21:16
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Looking at more paintings by the same artist: So, check out the dude in left foreground, with the spontoon or partisan or whatever he's got. What he's doing is the pike position called (in English) "Guard Against Cavalry" and it's textbook perfect except for two things: one, it requires a pike; two, like most things you do with a pike, you need a whole bunch of dudes. He should be fighting with that thing like it's a halberd; instead, his enemy could just walk a slightly longer distance around him and be fine.
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Sep 22, 2015 21:45
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I actually totally agree with the fragmentation crowd but this quote:Cyrano4747 posted:Let's put it this way: doesn't ring quite as true for me. After all I find it very difficult to believe that you could convert a fragmentation grenade with a concussive sleeve lol. Klaus88 posted:That remains me of my great uncle! He coulda played professional baseball! Its' really not something to make light of but given your username I was seriously considering making a joke about being sore you lost the battle klauss88.
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Sep 22, 2015 22:01
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You're reading the grenade thing backwards Frostwerks - he's not saying you can convert a fragmentation grenade to a concussion grenade using a sleeve, but you can convert a concussion grenade into a fragmentation grenade by putting a metal sleeve over it designed to break apart into fragments.
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Sep 22, 2015 22:08
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I know that. I'm saying that the reasoning he used, that the importance of fragmentation is why you could improve teh utility of a concussion grenade by slipping on a shrapnel sleeve isn't why you didn't see a concussive sleeve for a fragmentation grenade. As far as I'm aware, even if such a creature existed, it would ultimately still be in some respects a fragmentation grenade. And, yes, I realize that it's very likely that there is probably going to be at least some fragmentation from a concussion grenade if the filler doesn't disintegrate the casing, but it's killing radius would probably still be much smaller than a defensive grenade and would be used appropriately.
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Sep 22, 2015 22:21
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HEY GAL posted:hey guys I'm the guy about to get his rear end kicked trying to pick up a musket
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Sep 22, 2015 22:42
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Arquinsiel posted:Yeah but he British lad was clever enough to use his backpack to soak most of the frags. Eh. Soldiers often use all sorts of things to try and muffle the explosion: Helmets, body armor, enemy combatants, whatever. Usually it just isn't enough. It just takes one fragment to gently caress you up real bad. That guy just got lucky, and he knows it. Kaal fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 22:45
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Kaal posted:Eh. Soldiers often use all sorts of things to try and muffle the explosion: Helmets, body armor, enemy combatants, whatever. Usually it just isn't enough. It just takes one fragment to gently caress you up real bad. That guy just got lucky, and he knows it.
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Sep 22, 2015 23:27
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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago Why is everyone so much less healthy in Gallipoli? No rear areas to rest and recuperate? Stale water? I mean, no doubt there's plenty of people with the shits on the other fronts, but it doesn't seem to feature quite as much. Also, I know that this is definitely somewhere in your blog, but which bits of Gallipoli was Kenneth Best at? Deteriorata posted:A grenade story from my grandfather, who fought in the Canadian army in WWI: Klaus88 posted:
I'd hazard a guess that every western military trains with them at least a little bit. There was a case in NZ some years ago where an instructor was killed when a recruit froze up. Pretty sure it was this guy. When I did basic we threw two training ones which I think were detonators only, and two real ones. It took all day to do two platoons, and we'd done a lot of practise on arming and throwing in the days prior. When our detail got it's turn, everyone crammed into a concrete blockhouse and got called up one by one. There was an arming bay, and then you went through some switchbacks made of chest high concrete blocks to the throwing bay. Both sides of the throwing bay had switchbacks so that if someone dropped a grenade you could be shoved away from it. The instructor told you that once you threw the grenade, wait until the order to duck (probably to make sure that nervous recruits stayed under control) and that if you were pushed, don't resist. (So that the instructor could shove you to safety if there was dropped grenade.) The whole thing was controled by a range NCO in a tower, who called the instructions in the most basic terms ('Thrower Number 2, Pick up your grenade!' Wait for thumbs up from the instructor...)
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Sep 22, 2015 23:56
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Jaguars! posted:Why is everyone so much less healthy in Gallipoli? No rear areas to rest and recuperate? Stale water? I mean, no doubt there's plenty of people with the shits on the other fronts, but it doesn't seem to feature quite as much. It begins with the large number of gently rotting Ottoman corpses which have by order of Sir Ian Hamilton been left to lie in No Man's Land to discourage further attacks, plus all the blood and guts decorating many of the trenches. They've attracted such a vast quantity of flies and other disease-carrying insects (to go along with the standard-issue louse, body/hair, Mark 1, itching and biting, for the use of) that the entire food supply is irrevocably contaminated virtually as soon as it lands, or its container is opened. Then there's the fact that all the blokes and some of the more unfortunate junior officers have been subsisting for months on bully beef, jam, and army biscuits; all right when you're two weeks up the line and two weeks in the rear where there's a half-decent field kitchen (or possibly even an estaminet selling egg and chips), less so when there is no rear. Then there's the constant stress, which along with the terrible food is playing hell with everyone's immune system. Then, yes, there's the incompetent arrangements for drinking water and the inevitable decline in sanitation as morale plummets. Then there's the lack of reinforcements, requiring sick and unfit men to stay with their units (and with no effective treatment available) rather than being invalided away to recover. Is there a medical term for the exact opposite of herd immunity? Because that's what they seem to have ended up with. There were a few small units in malarial African jungles who suffered worse as a proportion of their ration strength, but Gallipoli was on a vast scale; if you want the numbers, there's a Great War Forum thread that goes into plenty of detail, and includes a letter from a doctor to Sir Ian Hamilton that I wish I'd read two weeks ago. quote:It is evident that the condition of those troops that have been in the trenches at Anzac for a prolonged period (the average time in 104 men being 18 weeks, 50 of these 104 having been on trench duty since the original landing 20 weeks ago) is such that they can no longer be regarded as first-class troops. The weather hasn't broken. Yet. It's just about to dump all over northern France, though! quote:Also, I know that this is definitely somewhere in your blog, but which bits of Gallipoli was Kenneth Best at? Cape Helles; in theory he was attached to 42nd Division, but in practice he went wherever on Helles seemed to most need a chaplain.
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Sep 23, 2015 00:38
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Nenonen posted:I thought that was just SOP for any light infantry facing a non-gunship helicopter at close distance? No flared base, clearly not meant to be fallen on.
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Sep 23, 2015 00:55
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Frostwerks posted:
is there something about this guys name I don't get?
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Sep 23, 2015 01:15
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bewbies posted:is there something about this guys name I don't get? 88 is neo nazi code for heil hitler
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Sep 23, 2015 01:18
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bewbies posted:is there something about this guys name I don't get? Indeed yes. As far as I'm aware, though, it's just an unfortunate coincidence in case of that poster.
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Sep 23, 2015 01:20
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I thought it was referring to the gun or maybe Eric lindros......:/ I know Nazis are stupid but how the hell does that even work linguistically
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Sep 23, 2015 01:21
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bewbies posted:I thought it was referring to the gun or maybe Eric lindros......:/
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Sep 23, 2015 01:22
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bewbies posted:is there something about this guys name I don't get? Someone notices the neo-nazi connection whenever he posts, but I think he's just a Klaus born in 1988.
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Sep 23, 2015 01:30
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Klaus88 posted:
I don't know of any modern military that doesn't include at least a little live grenade throwing during training. You're obviously not just hurling crates of live ordnance around every time you hold a session (which is why we have training grenades), but you have to get recruits used to the noise and percussion of a real grenade blast and give them a practical reason to take cover after throwing.
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Sep 23, 2015 01:42
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Someone notices the neo-nazi connection whenever he posts, but I think he's just a Klaus born in 1988. Yeah, that username/av combo are really at odds with his posting.
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Sep 23, 2015 01:52
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I think Klaus' point (that wasn't worded well) isn't that recruits should never handle grenades, but that their first experience shouldn't be with live grenades that might potentially blow up a stack of other live grenades and kill like 10 people if someone makes a beginner mistake.
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Sep 23, 2015 01:57
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stranger danger posted:I think Klaus' point (that wasn't worded well) isn't that recruits should never handle grenades, but that their first experience shouldn't be with live grenades that might potentially blow up a stack of other live grenades and kill like 10 people if someone makes a beginner mistake. I suspect training methodology has improved a bit over the last 100 years, precisely because of incidents of live grenade accidents killing 10 or more people at a time. They did a lot of stuff back in 1915 that we would consider mind-bogglingly unsafe and dumb today.
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Sep 23, 2015 02:00
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I think you can't even get numberplates in germany with two consecutive eights, but I might be wrong about that. SS and NS are definite no-nos though.
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Sep 23, 2015 02:05
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Deteriorata posted:I suspect training methodology has improved a bit over the last 100 years, precisely because of incidents of live grenade accidents killing 10 or more people at a time. They did a lot of stuff back in 1915 that we would consider mind-bogglingly unsafe and dumb today. There's at least one documented incident of British training with their "sticky bomb" grenades where a recruit (I think it was Home Guard) accidentally got a live grenade stuck to his pants. They managed to rip the pants off and get away before he could be blown in half.
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Sep 23, 2015 02:11
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Trin Tragula posted:...Then there's the constant stress, which along with the terrible food is playing hell with everyone's immune system. Then, yes, there's the incompetent arrangements for drinking water and the inevitable decline in sanitation as morale plummets. Then there's the lack of reinforcements, requiring sick and unfit men to stay with their units (and with no effective treatment available) rather than being invalided away to recover. Is there a medical term for the exact opposite of herd immunity? Because that's what they seem to have ended up with... Thanks Trin, I think your last point is the one I missed, especially as sick people today tend to isolate themselves from the general population pretty fast.
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Sep 23, 2015 02:12
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we did two live grenades a piece in basic training i think and it was not a particularly big deal. the setup is pretty safe and the instructors are well trained. also does that mean Eric lindros was a Nazi???
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Sep 23, 2015 02:49
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Arquinsiel posted:Totally, which is kind of the point. The frags still did some damage, but not to him. The concussive force was enough to lift him off the ground, and the next dude in the door took a small one in the face. Not sure if that article mentions it or not though.  chitoryu12 posted:There's at least one documented incident of British training with their "sticky bomb" grenades where a recruit (I think it was Home Guard) accidentally got a live grenade stuck to his pants. They managed to rip the pants off and get away before he could be blown in half. Now that's what I call a sticky situation! jajaja, we have fun here in the war thread. Frostwerks fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 03:00
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That's the face of a man who appreciates a sick burn, followed by the face of a man knowing he'll never be able to get his own burns in.
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Sep 23, 2015 03:28
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I haven't seen it mentioned but if you have Netflix, there's a series called 14 Diaries of the Great War, and our old friend Louis Barthas is one of them. The Wipers Times is also good.
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Sep 23, 2015 03:32
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Arquinsiel posted:That's the face of a man who appreciates a sick burn, followed by the face of a man knowing he'll never be able to get his own burns in. I was under the impression it was (accidental... probably) innuendo.
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Sep 23, 2015 03:58
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I think live grenades near a pile of other grenades was thought up with some guy with shoe brush moustache that wanted to impress on the troops that grenades are not to be wasted and that they weight so much because we put Queen's Own Explosives in it and so on and so forth. Can't just throw them around willy nilly, you know!
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Sep 23, 2015 06:07
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Someone mentioned it forever ago but there was a conventional wisdom of how big a tree a tank could run over based on its tonnage. I think it was something to do with diameter:mass but IDK.
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Sep 23, 2015 10:23
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