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Thac0 kinda all makes sense once you get your head around it to me. The thing Ive never understood because my only experience with 2e is the infinite engine games, is how spell saves work, like how does save VS x work? And to add to that how does spell resistance work?
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Nov 25, 2021 12:34
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Zeniel posted:Thac0 kinda all makes sense once you get your head around it to me. The thing Ive never understood because my only experience with 2e is the infinite engine games, is how spell saves work, like how does save VS x work? And to add to that how does spell resistance work? Every class a its own Save Progression, and you check the chart to see what you have to roll under. So if your Wands save is 14, you want to roll Spell Resistance is just a flat percentage roll. Suspicious posted:You want to roll your save or higher. You'd think I wouldn't have flubbed this since I'm actively playing in a 2E game. Devorum fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Nov 25, 2021 |
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Nov 25, 2021 12:52
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Zeniel posted:Thac0 kinda all makes sense once you get your head around it to me. The thing Ive never understood because my only experience with 2e is the infinite engine games, is how spell saves work, like how does save VS x work? And to add to that how does spell resistance work? Yeah, that poo poo made no sense in pnp and I think the way Baldur's Gate works almost every save you make is save vs Spell. I just looked it up and it's just a number you have to roll higher than for specific effects to not hurt you or not hurt you as bad. But the progression for individual effects make no sense at all, and the separations also make no sense, like you have to hit a different number if a mage casts fireball against you rather than if a mage uses a wand to cast fireball against you.
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Nov 25, 2021 13:09
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Devorum posted:Every class a its own Save Progression, and you check the chart to see what you have to roll under. You want to roll your save or higher.
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Nov 25, 2021 13:13
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I know this thread is for infinity games so Neverwinter Nights probably doesn't count but, just in case anyone's into NWN, Beamdog just released a huge new visual upgrade pack (albeit still in a beta state as there are lots of bugs they are going to fix over time) - replacing NWN's notoriously awful character models, plus doing a full sweep upgrade of basically all armours and weaponry. It blows my mind that a game originally released in 2002 is still getting this much attention from an actual developer: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/704450/view/3109168049657787421
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Nov 25, 2021 14:46
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Skwirl posted:I just looked it up and it's just a number you have to roll higher than for specific effects to not hurt you or not hurt you as bad. But the progression for individual effects make no sense at all, and the separations also make no sense, like you have to hit a different number if a mage casts fireball against you rather than if a mage uses a wand to cast fireball against you. This is about where I sort of gave up and was just happy that level go up -> number get better. There's a save vs. breath, save vs. death, and save vs. polymorph, among other things. On the face of them I guess they sort of make sense, but trying to min-max this somehow is just beyond my patience, and maybe intelligence. Also I'm fairly convinced at least the original games didn't exactly apply all of these types rigorously. So, if my dudes make a save, great, if they don't, well poo poo someone get in there and help out, and if I know beforehand you really want to be immune to some effect or other, there's usually a spell for that.
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Nov 25, 2021 15:58
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I’ve never tried to min-max saving throws in 2nd edition. If you have an item that gives a bonus or a spell buff, that’s fine. Beyond it, don’t worry about it. Every character is going to have at least slightly different saving throws and to me it’s just kinda something you deal with. Most times it’s fine. If you’re in a fight where you can’t stop being paralyzed or turned into a chicken, then you address it there by figuring out which saving throw you need to strengthen, then find a scroll or potion or some other means to buff it. I don’t look at saving throws the way I do, say, resistances in an arpg (like Grim Dawn or Diablo 2). They don’t always spell a death sentence. It’s just a way of track things your characters are more or less susceptible to. And it’s gonna depend on class, level, gear, and ability scores.
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Nov 25, 2021 16:09
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chaosapiant posted:If you’re in a fight where you can’t stop being paralyzed or turned into a chicken, then you address it there by
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Nov 25, 2021 17:37
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THAC0 is fine when a microchip calculates it for you
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Nov 25, 2021 18:37
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Don't shorty races get a nice bonus to saving throws? Wanna say like Dwarves have pretty high saving throws versus certain things.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:07
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In pen and paper they do, you gotta mod it into BG
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Nov 25, 2021 19:08
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I'm doing a lovely job talking about all of this stuff but it's fascinating to me. one of the problems with 2e is that it's actually like 8 different minigames. for saves you have to roll over a number on a 20. to hit you have to roll a 20 vs a chart. thief skills are % and you have to get lower. unarmed combat is something i never bothered with, but it's slightly different from regular combat. I forget how skills work, but it's tweaked slightly from the rest of this. a stregth check is its own special thing (%, roll under). magic resistance is % , roll under. the current 20+ system fixes a lot of that poo poo.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:14
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saving throws vs death are the ones to prioritise imo, since they protect from the most dangerous spells and effects then go for save vs spells then breath then polymorph then wands
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Nov 25, 2021 19:35
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Basic Chunnel posted:In pen and paper they do, you gotta mod it into BG You don't need to mod it (in bgee at least)
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Nov 25, 2021 19:35
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idk why a fireball coming from a wand is treated differently from a fireball coming from someone's hands
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Nov 25, 2021 19:36
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you're right it does not make a lot of sense. It's not really a big deal tbh because most items just give you a bonus to all saves. Ioun Stones and the mage robes are the only exception I can think of when you'll likely have to pick which saves to prioritise.
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Nov 25, 2021 19:41
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Jay Rust posted:idk why a fireball coming from a wand is treated differently from a fireball coming from someone's hands Probably because it's one of their kludgy ways of further limiting lower-level spellcasters
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Nov 25, 2021 19:53
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chaosapiant posted:I’ve never tried to min-max saving throws in 2nd edition. If you have an item that gives a bonus or a spell buff, that’s fine. Beyond it, don’t worry about it. Every character is going to have at least slightly different saving throws and to me it’s just kinda something you deal with. Most times it’s fine. If you’re in a fight where you can’t stop being paralyzed or turned into a chicken, then you address it there by figuring out which saving throw you need to strengthen, then find a scroll or potion or some other means to buff it. Basic Chunnel posted:In pen and paper they do, you gotta mod it into BG
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Nov 25, 2021 20:34
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bike tory posted:you're right it does not make a lot of sense. It's not really a big deal tbh because most items just give you a bonus to all saves. Ioun Stones and the mage robes are the only exception I can think of when you'll likely have to pick which saves to prioritise. There's a couple of vendor trash items like the necklace of form stability that gives something like +5 vs. polymorph. I mean, thanks? 
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Nov 25, 2021 20:38
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Basic Chunnel posted:Probably because it's one of their kludgy ways of further limiting lower-level spellcasters I think that's exactly it. If your wand of summon creatures or paralysis leveled up with you they'd be incredibly powerful.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:02
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Pretty sure the shorty save bonus is in Baldur's Gate and always have been. Dwarves and Halflings get a bonus to death, wand, and spell saves that scales with Constitution, maxing out at -5 at 18. Gnomes only get the bonus to their wand and spell saves.
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Nov 25, 2021 21:59
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Downloaded the HD model and texture pack for NWN:EE. The game is still pretty enjoyable! I'll probably marathon it this holiday break.
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Nov 25, 2021 23:13
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You don't min max your saves as much as you min max your debuff of saves on enemies. So you cast Greater Malison and other save affecting spells and then shoot 10 chromatic orbs at a dragon and they die because they are bored to death by the statistics of the situation. I think this strategy is nerfed by most veteran tweak packs to make you work for your spell combos instead of Malison turning your wizards into a technicolor machine gun.Jay Rust posted:idk why a fireball coming from a wand is treated differently from a fireball coming from someone's hands
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Nov 26, 2021 02:59
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Finger of Deathing a black dragon in BG2 was definitely the start of me actually understanding D&D combat.
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Nov 26, 2021 03:50
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SoggyBobcat posted:Pretty sure the shorty save bonus is in Baldur's Gate and always have been. Dwarves and Halflings get a bonus to death, wand, and spell saves that scales with Constitution, maxing out at -5 at 18. Gnomes only get the bonus to their wand and spell saves.
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Nov 26, 2021 04:33
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I always found 3es implementation of ECLs (Effective Character Level) to be a weird idea as well. You can pick a race that is more powerful than other ones BUT you're gonna start off at a higher effective character level and therefore need more xp to hit higher levels. From what I remember the trade off wasn't likely to be worth it in IWD2. Maybe for a melee character where being a few levels short at higher levels, but certainly not for a spellcaster where you'll have to deal with casting weaker spells when a human is casting the fun stuff. Although if you were soloing that probably changed.
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Nov 26, 2021 04:57
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Ginette Reno posted:I always found 3es implementation of ECLs (Effective Character Level) to be a weird idea as well. You can pick a race that is more powerful than other ones BUT you're gonna start off at a higher effective character level and therefore need more xp to hit higher levels. From what I remember the trade off wasn't likely to be worth it in IWD2. Maybe for a melee character where being a few levels short at higher levels, but certainly not for a spellcaster where you'll have to deal with casting weaker spells when a human is casting the fun stuff. There was some version of it (I don't think implemented in any video game) that was kinda a version of the old school thing where Elf was a class, in that you start at level 1 and of a certain race and got benefits and then you could level up your race or level up in a class at the next level up, until you reached the max level of what would otherwise be your ECL.
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Nov 26, 2021 05:05
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El Grillo posted:I know this thread is for infinity games so Neverwinter Nights probably doesn't count but, just in case anyone's into NWN, Beamdog just released a huge new visual upgrade pack (albeit still in a beta state as there are lots of bugs they are going to fix over time) - replacing NWN's notoriously awful character models, plus doing a full sweep upgrade of basically all armours and weaponry. It blows my mind that a game originally released in 2002 is still getting this much attention from an actual developer: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/704450/view/3109168049657787421 Are they gonna update it to a not-bad edition of d&d as well?
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Nov 26, 2021 05:37
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Honestly I'd like more official game content from Beamdog but I doubt WotC think it's worth it.
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Nov 26, 2021 05:40
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Ginette Reno posted:I always found 3es implementation of ECLs (Effective Character Level) to be a weird idea as well. You can pick a race that is more powerful than other ones BUT you're gonna start off at a higher effective character level and therefore need more xp to hit higher levels. From what I remember the trade off wasn't likely to be worth it in IWD2. Maybe for a melee character where being a few levels short at higher levels, but certainly not for a spellcaster where you'll have to deal with casting weaker spells when a human is casting the fun stuff. A very weird quirk of the adaptation meant PCs with higher ECLs were actually better in IWD2, but it's extremely weird and convoluted to explain. Here's the details if you'd like: Editions of D&D prior to 3e didn't care about a PC's level when determining experience gained. (Experience invariably starts requiring small amounts and increases the amounts required logarithmically over the course of gaining more levels.) The party gained a flat amount of XP (say 18 for killing a skeleton) and split that evenly (so between 6 people, each got 3 XP). This is how it works in most Infinity Engine games, and is why if you want to level up a mage really quickly you kick everyone out so you get all the precious XP to yourself while you learn a bunch of spells from scrolls. If a higher level party killed that 18 XP skeleton they still got 18 XP, it was just a tiny meaningless amount at level 17 or whatever. 3.0 changed this. Due to the new Encounter Level/Challenge Rating system, monsters (the main source of XP) didn't have set amounts of experience. Instead, you looked up the monster's CR (its difficulty) on a table and compared it to the PC's level, which gave you the amount of experience gained, and then you split it by the number of PCs and handed out that amount. You gain more experience for defeating monsters higher than your level, and less experience for defeating monsters lower than your level. Note that actually two things have changed here - #1, you're now comparing the monster to the character's level to get the experience gained, but #2 you're also comparing the monster to each character individually instead of to the party's average level or something. For various reasons that I don't think really apply to IWD2 (but do apply in say Temple of Elemental Evil), the experience totals of characters in a given party can vary widely even though the characters have overcome the exact same challenges, because there are things in 3e that cost you XP (most commonly magic item creation). Also importantly note that in 3.0 all characters no matter their class use the same experience/level table, everyone hits level 2 at 1000 XP or whatever it is. Okay, so how does Effective Character Level play into this? First off, and I want to make this very clear: Icewind Dale 2 did not make this system and ropekid is not responsible for how horrible this sounds. (It's from the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.) So ECL lets you play more powerful races starting at level 1 (if you are familiar with 3.5 this sounds very very wrong, and this significantly changed between this system being printed in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, being updated in Savage Species, and being finalized in 3.5's core rulebooks), by saying you are effectively a higher-level character than your actual level. Your actual level is the total of your class levels (1 mage + 1 rogue = 2 class levels), but you add on say 2 more for being a drow and get an ECL of 4. Now, in most places in the rules the system looks for and gets your actual character level - if it wants to know if you're 4th level so sleep doesn't work on you, it gets your character level (technically your Hit Dice but for this example it's the same thing for PCs), not your effective character level. But the 3.0 FRCS wanted to encourage people to play all these fun, extra cool races with special powers, so it specifically changes the experience system to get and use your ECL. So let's go back to the discussion of experience from the second paragraph again. Now when your IWD2 party kills a monster, the game looks at each individual PC's ECL and compares that to the monster's CR to get the experience each individual PC receives after splitting it according to the number of PCs that fought the monster. All the same, but one of the variables is slightly different. So for example, let's say the party of fresh new characters is fighting a first level skeleton. They slay the skeleton, and a regular human fighter has a character level of 1, so he gets 100 XP divided by 6, so they get like 16.6 or whatever, the actual number doesn't matter. But the drow fighter right next to him has an ECL of 3. Because that drow fighter is effectively higher level, they get less XP for slaying that skeleton - one third of the 16 the fighter got or whatever. Importantly, this number is not changed after it is divided for the rest of the party - the system does a completely separate lookup for the drow fighter as a third level PC against a first level enemy and splits that result by 6, it doesn't adjust the human first level result to fit a third level PC better. Here's where the problems start coming in though. Every character, regardless of their class or race, uses the same experience/level table like I said. This table looks at character level, so ECL characters effectively start at a higher level and need more XP to level up. They level slower, fine. If you have an ECL of 2 even though you're level 1, you need to get to 3000 XP to hit class level 2 (which is effective character level 3, and a human would be class level 3 at the same time). But your effective character level also affects how much experience you get, like I just said - so your character with a higher ECL is going to take not just a slower time to level up because they need more XP to hit that next level (due to starting higher than a human) but because they are receiving less XP overall. That's fine. That is genuinely how characters with high ECLs work in IWD2, at the beginning you get less XP than other party members and you are slower to level up and it feels really slow and lovely in a bunch of ways. Now, let's see what happens a chapter or two down the line. Say now the entire party is character level 3, with either ECL 3 characters or characters that have 3 class levels. Kill an ogre skeleton that's bigger since you're stronger, and everyone gets the exact same amount of experience, great - the ECL characters get 160.6 and the class level characters get 160.6. Play like this for awhile and wait, what - why are my class level characters levelling up before my ECL characters still? They're all the same level, aren't they? Yes, but remember how your ECL characters received less XP for being a higher level previously? Your characters with only class levels just have more XP, period, and since everyone uses the same experience/level table, they're hitting level 4 first. Ow, that doesn't feel right. It gets worse. Now your mixed party of class level 4 characters and ECL 3 characters fights a big ogre skeleton, it's a bit harder. Now the class level characters are getting LESS experience than the ECL characters, because their class level is higher, and the experience formula sees that they're higher level so it's giving them less experience for the same challenge. This ain't bad, it's going to give your ECL characters a bit of a catch up, that's nice. However, remember that everyone uses the same experience/level table, and it increases logarithmically. This means that the amount of XP the ECL characters need to "catch up" is actually LESS than it takes for the pure class level characters to level up themselves. Everyone's at level 4 again, XP gained from killing a monster is the same amount for everyone again, things are great. But there's a problem, and this one is unique to IWD2. This whole system, with ECL and experience tables and all that like I said, was designed as part of the actual tabletop game. In the tabletop game, there's an additional thing that happens, where the DM basically takes the average character level of the party and builds challenges around that - if you level up, the DM can make the orcs on the next floor of the dungeon harder. In IWD2, you don't have a GM to tweak things, so the level design gradually increases the power (and Challenge Rating) of monsters to match the expected experience gain, items found, et cetera. Good level design makes this work great, and IWD2 has pretty good level design. The problem isn't actually that design, but its inflexibility and inability to respond to how your characters may level up at different rates. Because remember how I said the ECL characters catch up? And how experience is ultimately logarithmic? This means that invariably, your class level characters will level up before your ECL characters and then the ECL characters catch up - but due to the experience totals increasing while the ECL characters are behind during their catch up, this catch up period gets smaller and smaller each time. And eventually, the ECL characters will be right at the same level as your pure class level characters - but with the extra abilities and perks they got at character creation for that ECL. Or maybe they won't, because there's one cruelty about how IWD2 works - unlike the other IE games, it doesn't have an XP cap that you actually reach during game play. It has a cap that is far beyond what actually happens during the game itself, and pure class level characters cap out around 17 from a quick google, with the extra XP cap space being for Heart of Fury mode. But they don't cap out because they've received too much XP, they just run out of XP gained. However, most of that XP was still affected by the experience/level formula that I've mentioned a bunch above. Now, your pure class level characters received more XP when they were effectively behind at the beginning of the game. But due to catching up, your ECL characters received more XP when they were behind later in the game, when XP gained is much higher. In other words, the higher your character's ECL is at character creation, the more XP you actually gain during the course of the game, and your level will be the same if not higher over the entire campaign. Stick it out through those first few levels and ECL is a bonus, not a penalty. And some of the ECL race abilities (spell resistance, free stacking AC and save bonuses) are ridiculously good. Oh, and I looked up one of the strategy guides I remember this from. Remember how in Infinity Engine games you click a button to level up? The recommendation in IWD2 is to "level squat" - just stay at a lower level for as long as possible to rake in all the XP until you can catapult yourself to the highest levels with the increased XP from taking on higher level challenges. ECL, of course, makes this even easier. The hardest part of an optimized IWD2 Heart of Fury run is the lowest level parts of the normal game. e: Skwirl posted:There was some version of it (I don't think implemented in any video game) that was kinda a version of the old school thing where Elf was a class, in that you start at level 1 and of a certain race and got benefits and then you could level up your race or level up in a class at the next level up, until you reached the max level of what would otherwise be your ECL. In 3.5 these are called "monster classes" and are a similar way to approach the same problem of wanting to play a more powerful race at lower levels. Each level you gain, you unlock parts of the monster's abilities until you've reached its full powers. However, you couldn't take other classes until you had all of your levels in your monster class first, and monster classes actually have weird levels where you gain just special abilities and no hit dice or other basic stats to replicate your ECL in the end. You might be thinking of another option in 3.5 called "racial paragon" classes instead, which were pretty uncommon. They're the reverse of monster classes actually - they only exist for standard power races, but are levels of a specific class called "elf paragon" or whatever that you can take. These racial paragon classes always give you the benefits of an actual regular class level in terms of basic stats, and their special abilities gained enhance or somehow fit with your existing race - elves get keener perception and that kind of thing. Racial paragon classes don't increase your ECL* since it's just another class level, it's just taking "elf paragon" instead of fighter or druid. * yes yes I know I am trying to avoid confusing people whose brains are not completely steeped in the mess of a 20 year old edition of D&D. okay technically they increase your ECL because everyone has an ECL that is equal to their character level**, it's just that monster/powerful races also add monster hit dice and level adjustment on top of CL to get their ECL. **SHUT UP ABOUT EMANCIPATED SPAWN PLEASE IT IS NOT IN A COMPUTER GAME Arivia fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 06:15
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I bought all the DLC for Neverwinter nights enhanced edition along with all DLC, where should I start?
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Nov 26, 2021 06:26
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Mans posted:I bought all the DLC for Neverwinter nights enhanced edition along with all DLC, where should I start? if you want to play absolutely everything, the base campaign of the main game. if you don't want to play the very boring base campaign of the main game, start with the campaign for the first expansion, shadows of undrentide. it has you create a new level 1 character and has a plotline separate from the base game. note that nwn1 only has you use your single PC + 1 (sometimes 2) companions, so you're not gonna get a whole party to sort things out. the best companion in the two expansions is a bard. no matter what you're playing, cleric and druid are invariably the strongest classes. a little bit of guide reading and they can do pretty much everything in time. Arivia fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 06:31
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Arivia posted:A very weird quirk of the adaptation meant PCs with higher ECLs were actually better in IWD2, but it's extremely weird and convoluted to explain. Here's the details if you'd like: Ah, you're right. I totally forgot about how that worked because I haven't beaten IDW 2 in years, but your explanation is bringing all of that back. I thought there was also some trick where min maxers in IWD 2 would put mule characters in the party to affect xp gains and they'd also do level squatting at times for the same purpose since iirc you could squat at certain levels to get more xp for encounters and then eventually cash in all that bonus xp. I never really messed with all of that stuff but I do remember reading about it. God this is bringing me back
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Nov 26, 2021 06:36
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GorfZaplen posted:Are they gonna update it to a not-bad edition of d&d as well? You’re in luck! NWN Nights 1 and 2 already support a good and fun rule set!
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Nov 26, 2021 07:37
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NWN1 is 3.0 isn't it?
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Nov 26, 2021 08:07
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Mans posted:I bought all the DLC for Neverwinter nights enhanced edition along with all DLC, where should I start? First part of the base campaign gets better starting with act 2, but act 1 is an unmitigated boring car crash. Shadows of Undrentide, the second part, is the best one for me, with cool locales. Hordes of the Underdark is a great finish, but some bits were underwhelming I thought. It's good though. Overall, the campaign is worth going through once, and parts 2 and 3 should be played with the same character. There are also player-made modules to fill in the blank between SoU and HotT, I recommend doing that with your character before starting HotT. Pirates of the Sword Coast is short, but varied and funny. One of the best surprises from the paid DLC as far as I'm concerned. Daggerford was... ok? It was a bit BG-like with the travel map and wilderness areas, but dunno, it felt a bit too by the book, didn't enjoy it as much as reviews made me think I would. Haven't played Tyrants yet. Otherwise, it's not what you're asking, but I'd hit the player-made multipart campaigns which are above and beyond the paid DLC. Enigma Island (3 parts, plus Dark Energy is not part of it but takes place in teh same world a long time afterwards) and Aielund Saga (4 parts iirc?) in particular. FishMcCool fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Nov 26, 2021 |
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Nov 26, 2021 09:17
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I'd like to add that Aielund can be found in the 'curated content' tab now, you will also find the Auren Saga there which is another set of 10/10 modules.
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Nov 26, 2021 09:47
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Basic Chunnel posted:NWN1 is 3.0 isn't it? Yeah.
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Nov 26, 2021 11:19
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Vichan posted:I'd like to add that Aielund can be found in the 'curated content' tab now, you will also find the Auren Saga there which is another set of 10/10 modules. What is the “curated content” tab? I have NWN Enhanced on Steam and haven’t seen this.
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Nov 26, 2021 11:35
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chaosapiant posted:What is the “curated content” tab? I have NWN Enhanced on Steam and haven’t seen this. I misremembered, the curated content can be found in the 'community' tab.
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Nov 26, 2021 11:38
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