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That ugly gently caress having the echo with the stuff Voidsent have going on would handily explain why he's so good at regenerating. He's actually not, he's just cheating part of the process by not diffusing as hard.
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Aug 31, 2022 05:49
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Nessus posted:That ugly gently caress having the echo with the stuff Voidsent have going on would handily explain why he's so good at regenerating. He's actually not, he's just cheating part of the process by not diffusing as hard. It'd also completely track with his story, since Scarmiglione's backstory is basically 'coward that happens to keep surviving despite everyone's wishes'. Yeah, it'd actually make sense that he lucked into ways to cheat at that.
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Aug 31, 2022 05:51
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Something to note is that Cyella says she used to be a memoriate if you talk to her at the moment, and she also says she lost her powers when the Ascians took her away from the 13th. So I find it highly likely that it was both handed out by the Ascians and that they had the ability to take it away too.
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Aug 31, 2022 07:17
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Cleretic posted:It'd also completely track with his story, since Scarmiglione's backstory is basically 'coward that happens to keep surviving despite everyone's wishes'. Yeah, it'd actually make sense that he lucked into ways to cheat at that. I honestly think that "Cursed Echo" is just the name of a scream based attack, but this sounds so poetic that I would be fine with it.
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Aug 31, 2022 07:30
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Cirina posted:Something to note is that Cyella says she used to be a memoriate if you talk to her at the moment, and she also says she lost her powers when the Ascians took her away from the 13th. So I find it highly likely that it was both handed out by the Ascians and that they had the ability to take it away too. Another possibility is that, in becoming an Ascian, she lost the ability to use it. Pure Voidsent ALSO don't have the ability. Let's not forget, Cyella and Unukalhai ARE Space Ghosts. They aren't wandering around in masks and calling up meteor showers, but they're not exactly normal anymore. EDIT: That causes me to realize, the big thing between Black Masks and Red Masks may be that Black Masks are generally not trusted with the sorceries required to escape into The Rift in the event they get hosed up. Thus explaining why Cyella and Unukalhai had to be ferried around by someone else: They are physically capable of going, but they do not have the knowledge on how to do it. Gearhead fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 08:53
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Gearhead posted:Let's not forget, Cyella and Unukalhai ARE Space Ghosts. They aren't wandering around in masks and calling up meteor showers, but they're not exactly normal anymore. I mean... Cyella wasn't, at least.
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Aug 31, 2022 09:00
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Except you're NOT slaying it. You're trapping its soul(?)/aether* in crystal. On the source the Allagans discovered that trapping primals rather than killing them would prevent the people who summoned a primal from being able to resummon it. Its never really explained how that works, especially given what we later learn about how summoning works, but it apparently does work. My speculation is that the summoners knowing their "god's" avatar is trapped and not banished/slain interferes with their comprehension of the "concept" of their god, preventing the creation magic that is summoning from working, since the concept is not clear. Afterall, how can they resummon the avatar of their one-and-only god if it already exists, trapped? I get the feeling there are actually two slightly different versions of summoning: the one the beast tribes use, where the god's soul is dragged from the aetherial sea and shoved into the primal, and the one used by Ysayle/Venat where they transform and provide the soul themselves.
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Aug 31, 2022 09:23
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https://twitter.com/feyhound/status/1564835316527087616?s=21&t=DPcddvb-srjjc42NLZZfKg
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Aug 31, 2022 11:52
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Once you summon a primal that aether gets marked, and if you want to summon them again you have to get some of that aether back from the life stream or you won't get the same primal. So putting them in crystals would help, this is exactly how Ultima weapon was supposed to work and Gaius's plan.
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Aug 31, 2022 13:30
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Although, what counts as the same? Ysayle summoned something that looked like Shiva but wasn't the real Shiva. WoL/Ryne summons "Titan but a car" and "Was the lightning primal Ramuh or Ixion I forget", do those block anyone trying to summon the real ones?
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Aug 31, 2022 13:45
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There may or may not have ever been a "real" Titan or Ifrit or whatever. The "real" Ramuh was Rhalgr, but we don't know what he really is yet. The tribes were summoning the gods they wanted.
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Aug 31, 2022 14:37
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Also since the summon was being done on the First instead of the Source it might have counted as 'fresh' summon.
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Aug 31, 2022 14:55
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It's never really been stated how the 'only one of a summon can exist at a time' restriction works, but I've always pictured that it's more of a psychological barrier than anything else. If you're an Ifrit worshipper, and someone else has summoned Ifrit, you can't also summon Ifrit because you don't have the conviction to summon your one true god, because it looks like your one true god is right over there. However if you staunchly believe that no, the real Ifrit is nothing like that one right over there, then you can summon your Ifrit because you know in your heart of hearts that the other one's fake as poo poo. Even if it doesn't literally work like that, it feels like a functional framework for thinking about it because it probably works effectively like that anyway. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 15:20
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There is a continuity of consciousness and a "soul" in Primals. Ysayle talks to one, and in the afterlife manifests as Shiva, not herself. The psychological component wouldn't explain how Ultima Weapon works to stop people unaware of it eating a Primal from summoning that Primal. Furthermore, we know that after Midgardsormr vs the Airship Primals became much easier to summon as a whole, as if there was some reason before that they weren't (which is partnered in at least one cutscene with an animation of the Primals spawning from the giant beam of light the crash caused, which is yes, used in Endwalker but probably wasn't planned as such originally). To my mind, Primals have individual "souls" that are recycled, but that soul matches a specific incarnation/visage of the Primal. So Ifrit the War God's Soul is in use whenever he's summoned, but Ifrit the Flower-Picker would not be. No Primal is actually the real divinity though, they're just a form of extremely powerful Creation Magic taught by the Ascians. Using the faith/religion of the Summoners as a replacement for the Ancients concepts/blueprints.
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Aug 31, 2022 15:48
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I would even hazard further that the primal souls might have something like the concept matrices we see in anyder, somewhere you could literally access it, since it is the same spell
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Aug 31, 2022 16:02
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"Does this
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Aug 31, 2022 16:06
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My assumption is that it works like FF7 Materia: The planet has memories and summons are partially formed of those memories. If they are in use the summon can't happen.
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Aug 31, 2022 16:24
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ImpAtom posted:My assumption is that it works like FF7 Materia: The planet has memories and summons are partially formed of those memories. If they are in use the summon can't happen. I mean, FF is hardly the only franchise to play with that idea, and it feels extremely fitting in this context. 
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Aug 31, 2022 16:33
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Double is a Blue Mage that's managed to staple Summoner power to themselves
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Aug 31, 2022 16:37
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As someone who never played FF4, a lot of this Golbez/fiends stuff is lost on me but it’s fun to look at?
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Aug 31, 2022 16:40
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I think in the case of Shiva specifically, there’s the idea of Shiva, tragic lover, bridger of the gap between man and dragon, Ysayle’s supposed past life, and then there’s actual Shiva, elf who lived, who’s actual soul is intertwined with Hraesvelgr. Ysayle (and her followers) made the former up, and that gave the primal a soul that could only be summoned one time until defeated (provided what you want to summon is literally “Ysayle’s idea of Shiva”). What Ryne summoned, by contrast, is “Ryne’s idea of Shiva and Ysayle based off of the stories the WoL told her”. That said, in the case of Shiva (and Thordan and possibly Shinryu) the soul is probably literally the summoner, so trying to summon literally Ysayle!Shiva by not Ysayle would probably end in a recursive primal Ysayle-as-Shiva separate from Ysayle!Shiva and-
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Aug 31, 2022 16:48
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Mordiceius posted:As someone who never played FF4, a lot of this Golbez/fiends stuff is lost on me but it’s fun to look at? Basically nothing about Golbez and the Fiends so far has actually pulled from FFIV beyond as simple 'I recognize that' reference, save for three things: 1. Some clever retooling of Scarmiglione's boss gimmick (he died and then came back for another boss fight right after) 2. The actual setting of Troia, which had a minor role in IV; it's mostly known for being a matriarchal society. 3. The dragon, probably; in IV Golbez had a Shadow Dragon at his beck and call. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 16:48
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Cleretic posted:Basically nothing about Golbez and the Fiends so far has actually pulled from FFIV beyond as simple reference, save for three things: I mean, Scarmiglione uses zombie minions like in IV and he had a sword in an Amano artwork. Barbariccia is more changed but like, beyond being an oujou type and using wind she had not much personality in IV (and her transition references her tornado form). Also no, she wasn't a lesbian originally, blame/thank Hyadain for that.
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Aug 31, 2022 16:53
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Also not a IV knower here, so I looked up the Fiends before hopping into the patch and it was very funny that we had a party of "tentacled man in a sack, turtle guy, fire demon... bikini lady" She really got a quite a glow-up The giant gently caress-off sword also helps a lot
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Aug 31, 2022 17:15
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I'm disappointed we didn't get a duty action that borrowed PvP DRG lb to knock her out of her tornado.
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Aug 31, 2022 17:26
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Is there any data out there that shows how long each individual fight in Savage took this tier? Like p5s took X hours, p6s fastest clear took Y hours, etc. e: eh, wrong thread. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 17:42
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Veev posted:Once you summon a primal that aether gets marked, and if you want to summon them again you have to get some of that aether back from the life stream or you won't get the same primal. So putting them in crystals would help, this is exactly how Ultima weapon was supposed to work and Gaius's plan. This reminds me, how come Hephaistos has an Ultima like form? I thought that came from an alien who came after the Sundering.
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Aug 31, 2022 17:43
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:I mean, Scarmiglione uses zombie minions like in IV and he had a sword in an Amano artwork. Barbariccia is more changed but like, beyond being an oujou type and using wind she had not much personality in IV (and her transition references her tornado form). I blame Hyadain for giving my brain lyrics to hungrily latch on to and never forget. They just automatically claw their way into getting stuck in my head no matter what version Battle with the Four Fiends is playing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1keUIXDa4EE Or, the subtitled version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8vz186pjY0
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Aug 31, 2022 17:44
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Kazy posted:This reminds me, how come Hephaistos has an Ultima like form? I thought that came from an alien who came after the Sundering. Convergent evolution of freaky weirdos
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Aug 31, 2022 17:44
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Is there any data out there that shows how long each individual fight in Savage took this tier? Like p5s took X hours, p6s fastest clear took Y hours, etc. Not laid out like that, but MogTalk tracks every World Race since 3.4 and has an updated list of clear times for each static that submited it during the race on their website. Here's the one for Abyssos.
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Aug 31, 2022 17:48
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Even if she wasn't one originally they should've made her a flaming lesbian anyway.  I mean every party I've done against her has turned me and plenty of other lesbians into gibbering idiots anyway so I guess they were successful at that.
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Aug 31, 2022 18:04
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Based on his VA, does anyone else expect FFXIV's version of Cargozza to have mutton chops?
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Aug 31, 2022 18:10
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Gearhead posted:I mean, FF is hardly the only franchise to play with that idea, and it feels extremely fitting in this context. Wait is there a W anime or something?
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Aug 31, 2022 18:11
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Onean posted:I blame Hyadain for giving my brain lyrics to hungrily latch on to and never forget. They just automatically claw their way into getting stuck in my head no matter what version Battle with the Four Fiends is playing. 
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Aug 31, 2022 18:32
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ImpAtom posted:Wait is there a W anime or something? It's released under the title 'Fuuto PI' and it's an animated version of the comic sequel. Kazy posted:This reminds me, how come Hephaistos has an Ultima like form? I thought that came from an alien who came after the Sundering. There are at least three distinct uses of the term 'Ultima' in setting that seem to share a common root word, probably the same as how Azem and Azmeya seem to share a root word. 'Ultima Weapon' born from the idea of creating a supremely powerful weapon, cooked up by the Allag. 'Ultima' the Space Monster who was worshipped as a goddess, named Ultima for her destructive power. 'Ultima' the spell, supposedly the absolute last word in single cast destructive magic. This last one, and stories about how awful it was to see go off, is probably what lent its name in later generations to the previous two. Gearhead fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 18:32
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SirPhoebos posted:Based on his VA, does anyone else expect FFXIV's version of Cargozza to have mutton chops? Lol I know exactly what you mean! drat, I sure do now
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Aug 31, 2022 18:32
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Onean posted:I blame Hyadain for giving my brain lyrics to hungrily latch on to and never forget. They just automatically claw their way into getting stuck in my head no matter what version Battle with the Four Fiends is playing. WA-RE-RA WA SHI-TEN-OU! TSUCHI, MIZU, MAIAGARE!
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Aug 31, 2022 18:34
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ImpAtom posted:Wait is there a W anime or something? poo poo yeah there is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79phAUXkwsI
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Aug 31, 2022 18:45
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:WA-RE-RA WA SHI-TEN-OU! SCAR-MIL-ON-AY 
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Aug 31, 2022 18:56
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I think Hyadain's Mega Man 2 songs are even more entrenched into my brain than his FF ones.
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