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sexpig by night posted:I mean...yes? That's kinda the point of the beast mechanic and all, even the most moral vampire has to compromise their humanity and 'maybe we'd be better off dead for real' vs 'gently caress that I've got vamp power now and that's a step up from humanity' is one of the biggest themes of the game? It's real weird the most iconic end of the world version throws that all away for what amount to vampire kaiju theater. It's like the writers themselves were victims of the gundam meme but with vampires. like if i have to pick between between being BLOODPOUCH and being a particularly whiny shakepeare wannabe then my choice is already been made and it's the one with cleverly hidden feet
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Dec 23, 2018 02:49
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Also, given how often monsters, vampires or otherwise, get coded as, used as metaphors for, and/or projected onto by different marginalized groups "normal" people fear and hate, like LGBTQ folks and such, "your existence is inherently monstrous and the world would be a better place if you just killed yourself" is perhaps kind of a lovely message for a game about them to have.
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Dec 23, 2018 03:14
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sexpig by night posted:I mean...yes? That's kinda the point of the beast mechanic and all, even the most moral vampire has to compromise their humanity and 'maybe we'd be better off dead for real' vs 'gently caress that I've got vamp power now and that's a step up from humanity' is one of the biggest themes of the game? Except history is full of examples of humanity that is entirely willing to throw the rest of mankind under the rug for the slightest gain. We even have rich people who literally get blood transfusions from young people in order to feel healthy or fit, and they don't have to turn in their Human Card when they get a Black Credit Card. The idea that you should commit suicide for the perceived sake of others (not in some 'heroic' sacrifice that may actually save people, like jumping on a grenade, but killing yourself because somewhere someone is worse off because you exist), that you have no right to live because you're a drain on them, was ridiculous even in the 90s. nofather fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 23, 2018 03:17
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you guys know the ending that prompted this was less 'go stand in sunlight, monster' and more 'accept the now inevitable death of our kind with introspection and dignity' right?
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Dec 23, 2018 03:23
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Love to take an obvious joke (I hope that's what it was?) and spin it off into a serious conversation about what specific kind of fun everyone should be allowed to have in the game world that includes everything from "Shoah" to "literally just Lo Pan from Big Trouble."
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Dec 23, 2018 03:25
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nofather posted:Except history is full of examples of humanity that is entirely willing to throw the rest of mankind under the rug for the slightest gain. We even have rich people who literally get blood transfusions from young people in order to feel healthy or fit, and they don't have to turn in their Human Card when they get a Black Credit Card. The idea that you should commit suicide for the perceived sake of others (not in some 'heroic' sacrifice that may actually save people, like jumping on a grenade, but killing yourself because somewhere someone is worse off because you exist), that you have no right to live because you're a drain on them, was ridiculous even in the 90s. Peter Thiel probably should face the sun yes
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Dec 23, 2018 03:33
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Wrestlepig posted:Is Blacula in WOD Mamuwalde would be a great NPC to have hanging out. You could probably slot him in as prince of a city easily. Hell the silver ping-pong ball eyed zombies of Sugar Hill would probably make for a creepy enemy for some game, maybe Hunter.
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Dec 23, 2018 03:39
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nofather posted:We even have rich people who literally get blood transfusions from young people in order to feel healthy or fit, and they don't have to turn in their Human Card when they get a Black Credit Card. I disagree.
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Dec 23, 2018 05:57
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Roland Jones posted:Also, given how often monsters, vampires or otherwise, get coded as, used as metaphors for, and/or projected onto by different marginalized groups "normal" people fear and hate, like LGBTQ folks and such, "your existence is inherently monstrous and the world would be a better place if you just killed yourself" is perhaps kind of a lovely message for a game about them to have. Now, of course, the analogy breaks down. Vampires do hurt people, inevitably, and it is a practical inevitability that they will kill people even if only on a wide time horizon. So what do you do? Do you invent Tru Blood? No, I guess you just go exterminate them all.
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Dec 23, 2018 06:08
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Roland Jones posted:Also, given how often monsters, vampires or otherwise, get coded as, used as metaphors for, and/or projected onto by different marginalized groups "normal" people fear and hate, like LGBTQ folks and such, "your existence is inherently monstrous and the world would be a better place if you just killed yourself" is perhaps kind of a lovely message for a game about them to have. let's not bring beast into this also the Gundam meme is pretty baked into a ton of pop culture. I love the Purge movies to death. They're primarily about how terrifying murderous american culture is, and also how loving cool it is when a couple of mysterious badasses murder nazis to protect people from murderous american culture. Sometimes you can make this explicit - Inglorious Bastards being one of the best examples - but I'm not totally sure that having that tension between the pleasing aspects of the medium and the message invalidates the message. To bring it back to Vampire, I think the whole "this work is overall about how bad this thing is / this work minute-to-minute is about how cool this same thing is" is so prevalent that you really can tell cool stories about byzantine politics and undead super-heroes that stops often enough to have the larger theme of "maybe vampire society is bad?"
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Dec 23, 2018 06:22
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Nessus posted:Now, of course, the analogy breaks down. Vampires do hurt people, inevitably, and it is a practical inevitability that they will kill people even if only on a wide time horizon. So what do you do? Do you invent Tru Blood? No, I guess you just go exterminate them all. You joke, but at least two 1e books sort of suggest this as the penultimate fix for fixing their hosed up society. Like, sure. The beast exists. And they still need work to avoid keeping control. But without the blood fixation (apparently a vampire eats about the equivalent of one human life per week from what I recall of the math) suddenly things start looking up. Never mind that it completely dismantles the Invictus and Lancea et Sanctum's control over society in the long term since they work off of a feudalistic "Do as we say or you don't get your hunting grounds/ration." sort of logic. Both of which are organizations are also implied to be responsible for the lovely state of affairs in the modern setting. And if nothing else it sure as gently caress makes target identification for hunters a hell of a lot easier. The Solomon Birch knockoff that spends every Sunday ranting about being a ~true christian predator~ while gargling the blood of heathens is going to stand out a hell of a lot more when compared to the bookish guy who decided to go vegetarian vampire and just wants to encourage people to try to not be dicks to each other. Edit: In fact, i'd argue more the fact that you could say Requiem is a bit weird compared to similar media in that secrecy really bit vampires in the rear end in the modern portion of the NWoD setting. Since groups like Yuri's Group have tactics that literally make it easier to be a vampire and control their impulses it's clear that they can get along with others. Couple that with the rules for blood substitutes and it's obvious there are alternatives if you want them to exist. It's just that in the modern setting cutting themselves off from the rest of the world (and being stuck rooming with toxic groups like the Invictus, the fundie and traditionalist portions of the Lancea, and Belial's Brood.) meant that their society cut themselves off from any sort of help with dealing with their condition. Which leads to what's usually a slow, inevitable spiral of decay since even at their very best Requiem's major political groups are essentially the equivalent of an alcoholics anonymous self-help meeting where everyone is taking turns to duck out for drinks when no one is looking. Archonex fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 23, 2018 07:40
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sexpig by night posted:you guys know the ending that prompted this was less 'go stand in sunlight, monster' and more 'accept the now inevitable death of our kind with introspection and dignity' right? You're the one who went "yes but unironically" to the "it was wrong of me to be turned into a vampire and I should kill myself for the good of everyone else" thing and elaborated on how that is in fact the case. If that's not what you were trying to say you shouldn't have, well, said it.
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Dec 23, 2018 07:42
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I don't really buy the argument that Vampires are meant to be a metaphor for marginalized people. While they do lurk in the shadows, they wield immense power, personal, social, and political. They prey on the marginalized and grow more powerful for doing. Vampires in the World of Darkness and the Chronicles of Darkness are metaphors for the privileged, for the hyper-rich, and the powerful. They are the hidden rulers of the world and their communities whose only real threat are each other or a combined uprising of those that they prey on. Vampires are capitalists.
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Dec 23, 2018 07:49
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Wrestlepig posted:Is Blacula in WOD There's a picture of one, yes. Let me see if I can find it. Edit: Behold. The most "Kill Whitey" image in Requiem. Also, one of the funniest in 1e, given that it comes out of nowhere.  Note that this is an image that is part of the Invictus chapter. So he's technically a royal Blacula. Also, I feel I should mention that there is no discernible context for this image aside from what I assume was making people do a double take and go "What the gently caress? Why is a black vampire dressed up like he just stepped out of a bad 70's-esque exploitation movie menacing a bunch of white people with a sword?". Also, also, note his right hand. Dude's either an eldritch horror or he has a few too many fingers. Archonex fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 23, 2018 07:58
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Archonex posted:Note that this is an image that is part of the Invictus chapter. So he's a royal Blacula. Also, I feel I should mention that there is no discernible context for this image aside from what I assume was making people do a double take and go "What the gently caress? Why is a black vampire dressed up like he just stepped out of a bad 70's-esque exploitation movie menacing a bunch of white people with a sword?".  I recall that the initial plot of Blacula was that Prince Mamuwalde sought the aid of Count Dracula in ending the slave trade and Dracula turned him for the yucks. That kind of a situation could lead to a society of angry revolutionary vampires.
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Dec 23, 2018 08:15
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Archonex posted:Also, I feel I should mention that there is no discernible context for this image aside from what I assume was making people do a double take and go "What the gently caress? Why is a black vampire dressed up like he just stepped out of a bad 70's-esque exploitation movie menacing a bunch of white people with a sword?". The opposite page suggests they're swearing an Invictus oath of fealty to him. Thinking about the Dante and other swiped art the pic looks like maybe someone just edited a sword into his hand (and, I'm guessing, a microphone out). The Lancea Sanctum art looks like they just edited fangs and a Lancea Sanctum necklace onto a photo shoot for a band. nofather fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 23, 2018 09:52
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Meinberg posted:I don't really buy the argument that Vampires are meant to be a metaphor for marginalized people. While they do lurk in the shadows, they wield immense power, personal, social, and political. They prey on the marginalized and grow more powerful for doing. Vampires in the World of Darkness and the Chronicles of Darkness are metaphors for the privileged, for the hyper-rich, and the powerful. They are the hidden rulers of the world and their communities whose only real threat are each other or a combined uprising of those that they prey on. Yeah, VtM and VtR vamps aren't really coded as anything other than bougie walking rape metaphors. Or sometimes superheroes, in the case of the former.
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Dec 23, 2018 09:52
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Archonex posted:There's a picture of one, yes. Let me see if I can find it. dope. I love the turtle belt buckle.
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Dec 23, 2018 10:16
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nofather posted:The opposite page suggests they're swearing an Invictus oath of fealty to him. The one lady whose face you can mostly see looks like she's doubled-over laughing. Also is it me or is that sword hilt he is so daintily holding mostly just with his index and thumb really, really short?
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Dec 23, 2018 10:18
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It's possible to play a vampire that doesn't harm anyone in both VTM and VTR, but it's not easy, and the games assume you'll pick the easy way out and start harming people for the convenience. They don't force you to, but the game is set up to enable and encourage you to do bad things to stay alive.
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Dec 23, 2018 10:51
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LatwPIAT posted:It's possible to play a vampire that doesn't harm anyone in both VTM and VTR, but it's not easy, and the games assume you'll pick the easy way out and start harming people for the convenience. They don't force you to, but the game is set up to enable and encourage you to do bad things to stay alive. It's also set up that, over a long enough period of time, the chances of you hurting someone as a result of your vampiric nature approaches 1. Sure, you can fall into Torpor to avoid feeding off of humans, but are you willing to let yourself be that vulnerable? Will you have managed to amass the power and resources to feel secure if you haven't been willing to go that extra mile?
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Dec 23, 2018 10:59
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That Old Tree posted:The one lady whose face you can mostly see looks like she's doubled-over laughing. For a ritual sword that's not that surprising. It's kind of the opposite of the Air Force's ritual sword. 
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Dec 23, 2018 13:24
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That Old Tree posted:Blood Treachery is from like 2000, which isn't what I think of as "early" White Wolf. Then again, 2000 places it within the first third of the WoD's publication history as it currently stands so...
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Dec 23, 2018 13:39
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Ironslave posted:It's also set up that, over a long enough period of time, the chances of you hurting someone as a result of your vampiric nature approaches 1. Sure, you can fall into Torpor to avoid feeding off of humans, but are you willing to let yourself be that vulnerable? Will you have managed to amass the power and resources to feel secure if you haven't been willing to go that extra mile? Granted, there are ways around most of that if you have a support network. I remember a blurb about family support and why their society at large hates them. It also sorta goes into the fact that maybe they're so hated because if the vampire is accepted then they're not going to want a bunch of sociopathic, potentially homicidally bored, ultra-political assholes around when they have people that still want to have a healthy relationship (and will protect them) about. It's even enough of a concept that one of the Stolze novels has a protagonist that assumes that everyone she knows has killed someone up until she thinks about it, catches herself, and then promptly walks that back to "except maybe this one person i've been friends with for a hundred years" due to how she keeps her feeding habits as private as possible. Mind, don't take it as an exoneration of the setting's society. Since said protagonist goes on to forcibly starve herself of an easy and willing mark after a frustrating run in with a hunter she couldn't kill, boards a train, guts and then drains a random construction worker so she can feel like a ~true predator~ or something to restore her bruised ego, proceeds to jump out of said train and burn the stolen blood so that she can race it with super speed while in the middle of a city, before veering off to crouch in the weeds and giggle like a nutcase as she thinks about killing or turning said hunter. Suffice to say that she's not exactly one of the good guys, even if her friend might possibly be. The really interesting thing about it though is that it's implied that the Sanctum's dogma are helping to persuade her to be such an evil bitch in the end. Even if she directly violates the local teachings by making a new vampire, ironically enough. All this comes back to my whole "vampire society in Requiem sucks partially because they're mostly stuck with each other and they're collectively poo poo at managing their impulses" theory. All the groups outside of the Unbound are structured around rolling with and accepting what you are and later on avoiding ennui. And outside from an early bit in the Carthian book and a (seemingly dropped, later on) bit about the Sanctum neither of those things really account for the fact that you're a blood hungry predator that's about ten seconds away from opening someone up like a soggy milk carton if you get too hungry. Neat thing is, there's a section in Secrets of the Covenants that implies that more than a few vampires know it and just don't know how to fix the situation or have given up trying. One Circle member gets other Circle members across the world to open up to her and reveal their deepest, darkest secrets to store in in a massive building sized collection/library. How does she do this? With some forgotten blood magic that makes everyone want to like and talk to her? By holding their loved ones hostage like in the clan books? Or maybe by just being your typical manipulative vampire and tricking it out of them? Nope. None of the above. She just lends a kind and sympathetic ear and promises to pass what they have to say about their lives and troubles on in the hopes of helping other vampires. Well, that coupled with a bit of blackmail for the really old ones that are so part of the system that they couldn't help but perpetuate the system they're part of and were too paranoid to trust her...at first. Edit: Also, the two Stolze novels in Chicago are loving amazing and it's a crime we didn't get more novels set there. They're legitimately good books, barring the second one which was written by a fan or something and basically took a few plot hooks from the big source book while ignoring the way all the characters acted in the first book. If you can find them you should pick them up. It goes a hell of a long way in actually depicting how dysfunctional their "society" really is. Archonex fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 23, 2018 14:10
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Warthur posted:I hadn't realised that; from the description it sounded way more vintage. Understandable. It's dead set in the time when oWW backed off on crossover.
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Dec 23, 2018 14:37
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But yeah, TL;DR: I'm really looking forwards to that Shattered Masquerade book and will be really disappointed if it doesn't have a chapter where they explore what happens if society at least tries to accept them and makes a real effort to try and reform their screwed up culture. Just blow up the politics to an even bigger level with human institutions involved. Possibly while modern humans freak out about the Invictus, the Circle's "Let's be Belial's Brood-lite" sub-factions gets purged, and the Catholic Church/literally every Christian religion relentlessly quotes Jeremiah from the Bible at the Lancea et Sanctum to hammer into their skulls why the Lancea et Sanctum literally cannot canonically exist and is a straight up deluded heresy whose theological fallacies proving it wrong they've been ignoring for 2,000ish years straight.
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Dec 23, 2018 15:13
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Archonex posted:But yeah, TL;DR: I'm really looking forwards to that Shattered Masquerade book and will be really disappointed if it doesn't have a chapter where they explore what happens if society at least tries to accept them and makes a real effort to try and reform their screwed up culture. Just blow up the politics to an even bigger level with human institutions involved. I think seeing where the Ordo fits in will be the real fun one: Will they be able to publicly recruit the best and brightest, will they be co-opted by the even more bloodthirsty daywalking VCs of Silicon Valley, or worse?
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Dec 23, 2018 16:08
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:If the Catholics are written with any sense of self-preservation they'll very politely decline to go hard on the guys who, on average, have some share of Obfuscate/Dominate/Presence/Nightmare, when the last decade has seen normal mortals repeatedly out some of the Church's biggest load-bearing secrets. I mean, unless i'm mistaken about the Malleus Maleficarum's loyalties the Catholic Church in this setting have an entire Hellsing tier secret church militant army working as hunters, actual guardians of the faith, and who the heck knows what else. Also, said order is currently being lead by a rogue ghoul/bishop that is implied to get his meals by using the edicts he put in place (torturing monsters as penance before death) as cover to drain captive vampires. The second the masquerade goes down he's probably gonna try and stock up his larder for the lean times to come, be it peace and acceptance or wholesale genocide. Regardless, given all that i'm not seeing that portion of the church tolerating a pragmatic move like that. Though I bet the Pope would be interested to know what that wing of the church had gotten up too. Heck, that'd be a fairly hilarious conversation to imagine if nothing else. Archonex fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 23, 2018 16:56
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Nessus posted:
Yes that is the opening of the movie, including Dracula saying the name of the movie as he curses Mamuwalde. Then we get a :rad: jazzy open and then the introduction of the really painfully bad gay stereotype characters. Seriously if you haven't seen Blackula, it's way better than the cheesy title implies (70's cultural weirdness aside)
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Dec 23, 2018 17:10
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Archonex posted:I mean, unless i'm mistaken about the Malleus Maleficarum's loyalties the Catholic Church in this setting have an entire Hellsing tier secret church militant army working as hunters, actual guardians of the faith, and who the heck knows what else. Also, said order is currently being lead by a rogue ghoul/bishop that is implied to get his meals by using the edicts he put in place (torturing monsters as penance before death) as cover to drain captive vampires. The second the masquerade goes down he's probably gonna try and stock up his larder for the lean times to come, be it peace and acceptance or wholesale genocide. In fact, that'd be a fun story hook: An elder you're indebted to has accused a prominent human politician of being a vampire, and you have to sneak in and embrace him before <Test> is administered, or make a deal with Crones (who require some other such sidequest) to drop some Cruac on him to give him vampiric symptoms when responding to some condition.
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Dec 23, 2018 17:22
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I think a funny potential escalation / consequence of vampires being public is that accusing rival human figures of being vampires would absolutely be a thing, even (and especially if) you yourself are a vampire. Now i'm picturing a vampire running for office while using your typical political slander and not revealing his status as one of the undead. "Does Democratic candidate Edgar Frog feed on the blood of innocent children? We don't know. But have you ever seen him stay out in the sun for more than an hour? Do your civic duty and vote smart. Vote right. Vote to protect your children's future. Vote to re-elect Senator Nose Feratu." Or something like this old meme'd political advertisement. Only with vampires instead of demonic sheep. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo_Ejfc5hW8 Archonex fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Dec 23, 2018 |
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Dec 23, 2018 17:36
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Luarien posted:For a ritual sword that's not that surprising. Why does the Air Force have a ritual sword?
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Dec 23, 2018 19:27
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Mors Rattus posted:Why does the Air Force have a ritual sword? Ha ha ha ha......ah, Jesus. You think they only have one? The Order of the Sword has a bunch of them for various things. That's the Master Sword of the Air Force Academy. Air Force is the most weeb of all branches, bar none.
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Dec 23, 2018 19:35
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Mulva posted:Ha ha ha ha......ah, Jesus. I'll grant at least that one looks appropriate for "dropping out of an airplane to kill someone", which is the closest to a practical use for a sword the Air Force is likely to have.
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Dec 23, 2018 20:37
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A lot of it comes down to them not having 200 years of tradition and making up their own canon. Someone in the army is probably kicking themselves for not keeping Washington's sword or Patton's Slapping Hand as a holy object with which to bless new O7s.
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Dec 23, 2018 20:40
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Mors Rattus posted:Why does the Air Force have a ritual sword? What do you think they mount on the jets when they run out of ammo?
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Dec 23, 2018 20:45
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Archonex posted:Regardless, given all that i'm not seeing that portion of the church tolerating a pragmatic move like that. Though I bet the Pope would be interested to know what that wing of the church had gotten up too. Heck, that'd be a fairly hilarious conversation to imagine if nothing else. Actually I think you’ll find the Pope is a Tetrarch of The Paternoster. Furthermore
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Dec 23, 2018 21:00
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That Air Force sword looks like somebody realized their dream of "what if you could affix a bayonet to a jet fighter?"
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Dec 23, 2018 21:03
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Canonically in the CoD the Pope knows about the MM and has told them they should be focusing on social justice and reform rather than blowing all the poo poo up and shoving things up places they shouldn't be. It's left them a bit perplexed as an institution, on account of the fact they aren't really designed for empathetic community outreach.
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Dec 23, 2018 21:04
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Mors Rattus posted:Why does the Air Force have a ritual sword? One assumes, logically, they're getting ready for a scene out of Fate/Stay Night.
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Dec 23, 2018 23:52
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