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MiddleOne posted:You're still not getting this. It's not about someone being too poor, it's about a significant chunk of their inelastic household spending getting disproportionally taxed. If their fuel consumption was elastic they'd just change, but these 0.2 points can't. This creates discontent, this creates opposition. Ok, well give me a straight answer so - how many rural poverty stricken people in France today do you think exist that have a significant chunk of their household income inelastically tied up in diesel purchases? What percentage of the overall French population? Large numbers of people in France aren't protesting currently because the diesel tax effects their life significantly, they're protesting because neoliberal policies over the last 25 years have broken the lower middle and upper working class economically and they're angry. And this is just the most recent policy announced by Macron, so is a convenient (if irrational) target. To quote a nice post from Orange Devil a couple of pages ago: quote:I feel like I'm looking at an international backlash against neo-liberalism which completely lacks the class consciousness to properly articulate what exactly has caused them to get so upset. And not a socialist leader in sight to point them at their real enemy. It's like a countdown timer until fascism up in this bitch.
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Dec 3, 2018 00:15
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Blut I don't think I have ever seen you argue something without being an rear end in a top hat. Why is being right on the internet so important to you?
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Dec 3, 2018 00:32
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I find it unnecessary to take a conciliating tone with someone who repeatedly uses verifiably incorrect facts* to make their argument. Spare the rod, spoil the statistically incompetent poster. * "let the old fleets die out naturally, which will take just a little over a decade" "1/4th of France lives rurally" 20% of the French population has no ability to stop using diesel fuel and requires it for their life "Fuel taxes are not working. They've been tried extensively for decades." etc (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 3, 2018 00:57
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Blut posted:Ok, well give me a straight answer so - how many rural poverty And this is the exact part where we again strut off into your fantasy-land. You keep mentioning poverty. I'm not talking about poverty, you are. Let me take another concrete example of this which you helpfully provided in your very next post. Blut posted:I find it unnecessary to take a conciliating tone with someone who repeatedly uses verifiably incorrect facts* to make their argument. Spare the rod, spoil the statistically incompetent poster. I used the term working. What did I mean by working? Was it that fuel taxes do literally nothing? Probably not since that would be a ludicrous statement that wouldn't fit into the broader discussion nor even the point I've been arguing for these past pages. Yet that was the interpretation you went with. So I too find myself wondering, Senor Dog posted:Why is being right on the internet so important to you?
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Dec 3, 2018 01:26
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Blut posted:Ok, well give me a straight answer so - how many rural poverty stricken people in France today do you think exist that have a significant chunk of their household income inelastically tied up in diesel purchases? What percentage of the overall French population?
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Dec 3, 2018 01:45
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Hey, Blut, you want stats on the French poor, on the people who suffer from tax hikes on energy and fuel? 13% of the population spend more than 8% of their money after tax in electricity, heating and cooking gas, and fuel oil. 10% of the population spend over 4.5% of their money in gasoline for their car - 32% of agricultors and 20% of blue-collar workers. Look at this: https://lemde.fr/2rig98g The first graph is pretty general and shows the growth of forced expenses as a percentage of total revenue after tax - not including food or transportation - over time. The second graph shows how French people spend their revenue after tax: the average expenditure on fuel for vehicles is 3%, and 6% of non-forced, non-food-related expenses. The third graph is where it gets interesting. Over 60% of the poors revenue is made up of forced expenses, not including food or gasoline, and thats 40% for low income, not technically poor people. Finally the last graph gives you an idea of how much actual money this represents. The red bar is what remains of ones monthly income after tax, forced expenses and food (yellow bar is before food expenses). This red bar is whats left for fuel, leisure, appliances, clothing, and health expenditures. Look at this globally, Blut, look at how much fuel weighs in the budget of the poor and the working class. Stop trying to minimize the impacts of fuel tax hikes on the living conditions of those people. And remember that 1% of the French population is actually 650 000 people, a number your mind cant actually understand.
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Dec 3, 2018 09:47
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I'm just here laughing about the proposition that most French people, especially rural, don't use a car They probably use cars the most, public transportation is always worse outside the big cities
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Dec 3, 2018 10:14
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orange sky posted:I'm just here laughing about the proposition that most French people, especially rural, don't use a car It's just so baffingly out of touch with reality.
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Dec 3, 2018 10:34
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suck my woke dick posted:Yes people are aggravated by neoliberal failure If people were aggravated by neoliberal failure, one could expect they'd stop voting for them. Instead, no, gotta give the Fillon and Macron and other "my program is to destroy society by turning the state into a simple oppression machine devoid of any public service function" over 60% of the vote while all leftist parties combined get less than 30%.
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Dec 3, 2018 10:36
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MiddleOne posted:It's just so baffingly out of touch with reality. Everyone knows the french use bicycles. 
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Dec 3, 2018 10:40
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Cat Mattress posted:If people were aggravated by neoliberal failure, one could expect they'd stop voting for them. Also, leftism is presumably presented as uncool in much of the French media.
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Dec 3, 2018 10:43
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Cat Mattress posted:If people were aggravated by neoliberal failure, one could expect they'd stop voting for them. the dirty secret of neoliberals is that they accept conservative framing because it does the dirty work for them in blaming all of the problems they caused on The Other
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Dec 3, 2018 10:43
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people aren't even necessarily morons, they just have no idea. the media kept pushing macron 24/7 because "WHAT IF LEPEN WE MUST COMPROMISE" and "WHAT IF VENEZUELA WE MUST COMPROMISE" and even after all that he was barely ahead of competitors in the first round.suck my woke dick posted:Also, leftism is presumably presented as uncool in much of the media. fyp
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Dec 3, 2018 10:57
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Truga posted:people aren't even necessarily morons, they just have no idea. the media kept pushing macron 24/7 because "WHAT IF LEPEN WE MUST COMPROMISE" and "WHAT IF VENEZUELA WE MUST COMPROMISE" and even after all that he was barely ahead of competitors in the first round. The media in Spain is 24/7 "inmigrants keep arriving we are at the breaking point". Has been for 25 years.
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Dec 3, 2018 11:13
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Truga posted:people aren't even necessarily morons, they just have no idea. the media kept pushing macron 24/7 because "WHAT IF LEPEN WE MUST COMPROMISE" and "WHAT IF VENEZUELA WE MUST COMPROMISE" and even after all that he was barely ahead of competitors in the first round. Yeah and Macron is trying to beat Holland's trajectory at this point. Before long, the real question is who going is going to compete with Le Pen in the second round.
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Dec 3, 2018 11:54
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Dawncloack posted:The media in Spain is 24/7 "inmigrants keep arriving we are at the breaking point". Has been for 25 years. btw How are PSOE doing now they've had a little time in power?
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Dec 3, 2018 12:12
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Tesseraction posted:btw How are PSOE doing now they've had a little time in power? they just lost seats in a local election and the liberals will team up with the fash to push them out
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Dec 3, 2018 12:20
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^^^^ThatTesseraction posted:btw How are PSOE doing now they've had a little time in power? We've just had an election (the first one since they took power?) in a region where they had reigned supreme for 36 years and the left right seat split went 50/59, with PSOE losing 14 seats compared to 2015. We also had our first mayor ultra-right party getting 10% of the votes, which is all kinds of cool. "A disaster" is a bit of an understatement.
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Dec 3, 2018 12:20
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I did see a dutch nazi crowing about the result but hoped she was just making a storm in a teacup. Spain I guess
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Dec 3, 2018 12:25
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MiddleOne posted:And this is the exact part where we again strut off into your fantasy-land. You keep mentioning poverty. I'm not talking about poverty, you are. You repeatedly talk about large numbers of rural people having their lives ruined by a 7.6c per litre increase on the diesel tax. If you think this group includes large numbers of people not living in poverty then you're even more irrationally attached to cars than I thought. Good to see you again not providing any data to back up your claims, though. quote:I used the term working. What did I mean by working? Was it that fuel taxes do literally nothing? Probably not since that would be a ludicrous statement that wouldn't fit into the broader discussion nor even the point I've been arguing for these past pages. Yet that was the interpretation you went with. You said, verbatim, "Fuel taxes are not working.". Yet they've been shown consistently in the real world, in Europe, to reduce consumption significantly - ie "work". Its a very clearly factually incorrect statement. I do apologise if my being right on the internet upsets you so, though. Flowers For Algeria posted:Hey, Blut, you want stats on the French poor, on the people who suffer from tax hikes on energy and fuel? This is a good post. That still only places numbers at about 6% of the national population being rural residents spending over 4.5% of their income on gasoline, though. A smaller number that that again would use diesel only. Even being generous, this 5% overall of the population could still very easily be helped ditch diesel with generous scapprage schemes paid for by diesel tax increases. Its not a remotely difficult (financially or logistically) solution for the government to implement. The key is just directing anger at the government to "why is the additional revenue being raised by this scheme not being used to help the rural poor" instead of "NEVER INCREASE DIESEL PRICES EVER" Even if posters like MiddleOne aren't concerned about the substantial medium/long term environmental impacts, over 2,000 people a year are prematurely dying in France from excess pollution from diesel cars every year. And there are obviously a multitude of that suffering, but not dying, from respiratory problems as a result of diesel. It really is a lethal issue that needs to be tackled sooner rather than later.
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Dec 3, 2018 13:03
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double nine posted:as someone who knows gently caress-all about housing policy, what would be the larger scheme? caps on housing prices and/or property sizes? Heavy control of real-estate agents? As others have pointed out above it is probably not so much a problem of the "how", as examples of how things could be done exist. It probably is more a question of who does it (in a political orientation context) and how motivated they are. A good example of how it should not be done imho is the current way the german government subsidizes the refugee housing: they just made available a big pile of money and set up some half arsed rules about what could be considered a subsidizable object and let "the market" get it done. I know of people who got a row of garages turned into refugee housing and others who turned what we would consider a small but comfortable home into three and they are all making mad money with it. In the end you probably only need real political will to set something up and then tell the rich people to eat it. And you need that political will with the actual people in power.
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Dec 3, 2018 15:13
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It probably should be remembered these gas taxes are in the context of huge cuts for the rich and corporations alongside austerity measures. That may have a little bit to do with the anger on display.
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Dec 3, 2018 15:59
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Ardennes posted:It probably should be remembered these gas taxes are in the context of huge cuts for the rich and corporations alongside austerity measures. That's the response of the French finance this morning: "we have to cut taxes but that means cutting public spending first". Because of course.
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Dec 3, 2018 16:36
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double nine posted:as someone who knows gently caress-all about housing policy, what would be the larger scheme? caps on housing prices and/or property sizes? Heavy control of real-estate agents? As far as social housing is concerned, the answer is pretty straightforward. Germany used to have a public subsidies scheme that encouraged the construction of social housing. It worked very well and led to the construction of millions of social housing apartments. The program was stopped in the 90s and most of these apartments were sold off. Housing experts(not to be confused with economy experts) mostly agree that spinning up this program would solve the issue. (But this is never going to happen for ideological reasons and because nobody gives a poo poo anymore. The unemployed and homeless don't vote and removing them from public eyes solves the problem for those that do vote. AFAIK the overwhelming majority of homeless people in Germany are now EU citizens from eastern Europe. They couldn't vote even if they tried and you can always tell them to just go home if they don't like it here.) Solving the general housing crisis is much, much more complicated. Lots of cities need to unfuck their NIMBY zoning laws or build new infrastructure. We need massive investment in city run housing like we used to have because the free market isn't doing anything for the majority of the population. There is no magic solution to this poo poo though. It took decades to let things get this bad and it will take decades to get out of the situation. For one, our construction industry is beyond capacity right now. It takes years to even build a bird house. One of the SPD's big prestige projects was a rent control scheme that they introduced two or three years ago. Yeah, it didn't have any effect on rents. I think next year there is gonna be a reform of the law so were are all VERY stoked (lol). (Other great SPD projects in recent years includes introducing a federal minimum wage that had almost no effect on wages because it put the burden of enforcing it on the employee (lol). Or that one time when the SPD tried to combat temp worker abuse and made the abuse much, much easier and widespread to the point where you can now just circumvent all worker protections and union agreements by using some simple, legal loopholes. Also, have I mentioned that the SPD has now fallen to 14% in polls and below the AfD and Greens?)
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Dec 3, 2018 19:07
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Just lol If Daddy didn't buy you a flat in Paris so you can smugly lecture others about how unnecessary fuel is
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Dec 3, 2018 19:11
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That seems like an unfair assessment of the SPD's achievements. It doesn't even mention how they hosed up social security, private retirement savings and sat on stopping criminal cum-ex tax fraud. Oh, and the one time they tried to protect child brides by removing their residency and alimony entitlements.
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Dec 3, 2018 19:15
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Yeah at a certain point I just believe foreign agents must have kompromat on all European legislators because there's no way so many people are so incompetent, it must be on purpose
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Dec 3, 2018 19:22
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orange sky posted:Yeah at a certain point I just believe foreign agents must have kompromat on all European legislators because there's no way so many people are so incompetent, it must be on purpose It's way way worse than that. They were all following a trend.
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Dec 3, 2018 19:24
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Randler posted:Oh, and the one time they tried to protect child brides by removing their residency and alimony entitlements. lol, yeah, that was pretty funny (not for the women affected though)
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Dec 3, 2018 19:28
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Orange Devil posted:Clearly what Europe needs is some Lebensraum. Russia is right there.
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Dec 3, 2018 20:28
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Randler posted:That seems like an unfair assessment of the SPD's achievements. Do I recall correctly that a couple of years ago, elections were so close that a left red red green coalition held a narrow majority? And when one of the smaller parties suggested to use that opportunity to push through some laws that all left parties wanted, the SPD pussied out because  it might have hurt their chances at being the junior partner in a coalition?
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Dec 3, 2018 20:34
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Also remember that time when the SPD murdered Liebknecht and Luxemburg?
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Dec 3, 2018 20:51
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Orange Devil posted:Also remember that time when the SPD murdered Liebknecht and Luxemburg? Currently they are murdering Gute Weinbegleitung und Fünf-Gänge-Menüs in Sternerestaurants more likely though.
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Dec 3, 2018 20:58
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What are Mélenchon and Hamon and other leftist politicians doing? Any good criticism or suggestions? Are they getting media presence?
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Dec 3, 2018 21:20
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Doctor Malaver posted:What are Mélenchon and Hamon and other leftist politicians doing? Any good criticism or suggestions? Are they getting media presence? Melenchon, and Le Pen also, is asking for the dismissal of the assembly and for new parliamentary elections to be held.
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Dec 4, 2018 00:02
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Doctor Malaver posted:What are Mélenchon and Hamon and other leftist politicians doing? Any good criticism or suggestions? Are they getting media presence? Hamon called for a referendum on the institution of 6th republic, though that's probably just a gesture.
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Dec 4, 2018 01:59
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Doctor Malaver posted:Hamon should have won Lord Stimperor posted:Do I recall correctly that a couple of years ago, elections were so close that a left red red green coalition held a narrow majority? And when one of the smaller parties suggested to use that opportunity to push through some laws that all left parties wanted, the SPD pussied out because The SPD has been busy pissing away any leftover goodwill by triangulating really really hard and not doing anything for the ordinary voter if it could possibly be avoided.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:57
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suck my woke dick posted:should have won
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Dec 4, 2018 07:00
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Meanwhile, in  Parliament passed a law last week that was forced through on the orders of Minister for the Interior and noted piece of poo poo Matteo Salvini. It is, allegedly, a law to "enhance the safety of Italian Citizens." What does this mean? Well, among other things. In Italy we had a system called SPRAR, Sistema Protezione Richiedenti Asilo e Rifugiati, System for the Protection of Asylum Seekers and Refugees. They were small, local centres where migrants who had obtained a visa for Italy on humanitarian grounds (i.e. refugees) could sleep, learn the language, start working, and start being integrated into society. Please note I'm using the past tense here. The new Security Law removed the possibility for migrants to obtain a visa on humanitarian grounds, and closed the SPRAR centres. This means, in essence, that tens of thousands of migrants, who are legally in Italy, found themselves homeless overnight. But wait, there's more! Since there are no more humanitarian visas, those who already have one won't be able to renew it once it expires, essentially becoming illegal residents. In one swift move, Salvini just created tens of thousands homeless people, and tens of thousands illegal residents. There's already been a death deriving from this. A young immigrant from The Gambia was kicked out from the SPRAR centre where he'd been staying, so he started sleeping in a "tent city" with other migrants. A fire started, and he burned to death. And then Salvini complains when we say he's a fascist piece of poo poo.
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Dec 4, 2018 11:02
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Good times, good times. https://twitter.com/armani_salado/status/1069653923718414338
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Dec 4, 2018 11:58
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