Older D&D and Retroclone Thread: From OD&D To 4E

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Older D&D and Retroclone Thread: From OD&D To 4E

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

Any of you ever try hexcrawl in a game that isn't really designed for it? I posted about wanting to try a Vampire Dark Ages hexcrawl in the WoD thread but it was pretty much ignored.

Evil Mastermind posted:

You know, but now that you ask I really have no idea what I want out of an OSR game.

I mean, I started playing in the era that they're trying to emulate, but this stuff wasn't how we played back then and I still prefer modern mechanics.

More and more people are starting to admit that this is just how they like playing RPGs rather than the whole endeavor being about some sort of Stations of the Cross emulation of Lord Gygax's Original Group�. That's a good thing.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 21:31

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 17:43

Byers2142: May 5, 2011; Imagine I said something deep here...

Lightning Lord posted:

It's two games. Low level, especially the funnel is where most of the FFV stuff happens. Above that it's goofy bongwizards 'n robots action.

I've admittedly never gotten to high level, but my understanding is even up at that level it's about the dice being able to gently caress you over at any time. What with all of the randomness to the spells and what not.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 21:59

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

Lightning Lord posted:

More and more people are starting to admit that this is just how they like playing RPGs rather than the whole endeavor being about some sort of Stations of the Cross emulation of Lord Gygax's Original Group™. That's a good thing.

Yeah, that's something that still turns me off about DCC is the whole "worshiping at the altar of Gygax" tone that keeps popping up throughout the book.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 22:13

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Evil Mastermind posted:

Yeah, that's something that still turns me off about DCC is the whole "worshiping at the altar of Gygax" tone that keeps popping up throughout the book.

I took that as ironic or jokey at first.

Though, the awful, awful 4e "book burning" comment makes me wonder.

# ? Feb 14, 2016 22:22

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

Byers2142 posted:

I've admittedly never gotten to high level, but my understanding is even up at that level it's about the dice being able to gently caress you over at any time. What with all of the randomness to the spells and what not.

That is still a thing but it's much less the focus. I've played high level adventures at conventions and the characters are pretty powerful. It's much easier to regularly succeed at routine spell checks, warriors hit with their Deed on a routine basis, etc.

Also the game encourages GMs to not focus on throwing rats at level 1 characters, but throw the players in the deep end with weird poo poo. The adventure line most clearly demonstrates this, there's an adventure about level 1 characters who get in thick with the gods of Chaos.

Evil Mastermind posted:

Yeah, that's something that still turns me off about DCC is the whole "worshiping at the altar of Gygax" tone that keeps popping up throughout the book.

I tend to ignore it, much like I ignore the whole "Stan Lee is a smiling god" sentiment among superhero media. It only really bothers me in more than a nerdy white noise way when people use it as an excuse for their dumb prejudices. One guy in a group I'm in tried to argue that anything other than human, elf, halfling and dwarf is "not D&D" because Gygax, for example.

Covok posted:

I took that as ironic or jokey at first.

Though, the awful, awful 4e "book burning" comment makes me wonder.

I think it's half-jokey. It was designed as a game meant for people who have investment in D&D already, but they don't seriously want to turn away players who don't have the complete works of Michael Moorcock memorized.

I don't blame anyone who finds it a total turn-off though, or finds the book-burning comment a dealbreaker, especially in light of the fact that someone (an rear end in a top hat without self-awareness, who once criticized a Swords & Wizardry adventure for being too groggy) actually organized a 4e book burning party.

I hope I don't come off as an apologist though, that pissed me off too. It's like finally, an OSR game that didn't have the smell of old men's pants, and all that good will was flushed away in one dumbass moment.

Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Feb 14, 2016

# ? Feb 14, 2016 22:54

Libertad!: Oct 30, 2013; You can have the last word, but I'll have the last laugh!

Covok posted:

I took that as ironic or jokey at first.

Though, the awful, awful 4e "book burning" comment makes me wonder.

I'm kind of confused about this. My major experience with 4E book burning was a party by the dude who commands the 10 Foot Pole blog, which to my knowledge is entirely unafiliated with DCC. DCC was designed by Joseph Goodman.

Did Goodman or one of his employees comment on 10FootPole's book burning party or something?

# ? Feb 14, 2016 23:59

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Libertad! posted:

I'm kind of confused about this. My major experience with 4E book burning was a party by the dude who commands the 10 Foot Pole blog, which to my knowledge is entirely unafiliated with DCC. DCC was designed by Joseph Goodman.

Did Goodman or one of his employees comment on 10FootPole's book burning party or something?

They made a kickstarter update where they admitted they wanted this picture of a cultist burning a book to be burning 4e because he was bitter about the loss of the OGL.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:03

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Lightning Lord posted:

Any of you ever try hexcrawl in a game that isn't really designed for it? I posted about wanting to try a Vampire Dark Ages hexcrawl in the WoD thread but it was pretty much ignored.

In what sense? I sort of figured that duplicating the Strike Commander tavern scenes for mission selection is a fine way to run a campaign, of any game.

Libertad! posted:

I'm kind of confused about this. My major experience with 4E book burning was a party by the dude who commands the 10 Foot Pole blog, which to my knowledge is entirely unafiliated with DCC. DCC was designed by Joseph Goodman.

Did Goodman or one of his employees comment on 10FootPole's book burning party or something?

During the kickstarter campaign for the Dungeon Crawl Classics reprint run, one of the updates talked about the art. Specifically, it talked about how part of the art was supposed to depict the burning of 4th edition books, and that the only reason it wasn't more explicit was because the artist couldn't make it so.

quote:

Peter�s work has a linework quality similar to Joe Kubert�s, although where Kubert�s pages are filled with action and Howard-esque violent motion, Mullen�s art feels timeless, statuesque, almost nostalgic in its romantic stillness, a capturing of a single fantastic moment. It would be perfect for this image.

But I wanted more than just the letters. This first page had to send a message. Goodman Games was abandoning the past in turning toward DCC RPG. This was the first significant RPG launch in our history. At all times prior, we had primarily existed on licensed D&D products, in one form or another. Even the �stand-alone� games we�d published were D20 licensed products. Turning toward DCC RPG meant a fundamental change in business model, and a significant request of our fans: come with us toward something new and unfamiliar, instead of just modifying your D&D games.

Therefore, the image needed an offering. We were making a risky sacrifice. Hence the cultists and their burning offering on an altar. Peter rendered this beautifully. But there�s more to the story than what you see. The real question is, What exactly are those cultists burning?

The answer is, D&D 4E books. My original request for the illustration was that the offering actually be a pile of small books with the number 4 written on them. Peter pointed out that to get the scale of the illo right � to make �DCC RPG� look sufficiently monolithic � there was no way that the books would be properly visible, much less be visible with the number 4 written on them.

My second request, then, was that the flames of the offering be composed of small 4�s, so the ashes of 4th edition fluttered upwards into flame. This too proved problematic from an illustration perspective. Again, the scale made this impossible: �DCC RPG� can�t look sufficiently monolithic if anything at the scale of the offering is to be discerned in detail.

So the final image was focused, correctly, on the letters �DCC RPG� and the other detail faded. Thus the secret hidden in this illustration. Those cultists are offering up the ashes of D&D 4E toward the god that is DCC RPG. DCC RPG accepts that offering, and here in its 4th printing I have a chance to think about this again.

(Also ask yourself what the adventurers in the corner are doing. They�re not attacking. They are observing. Why is there no battle? Because they approve of this offering. Perhaps they will ally with the cultists once the offering is complete, rather than do battle.)

In retrospect, I am glad the number 4 does not appear in the image. At the time we were creating DCC RPG, D&D 4th edition cast a long shadow over the RPG sector. But now, years later, it�s just a bad memory. A phase we all went through, like some bad band in high school that sounds silly now that we�re adults. DCC RPG is more than a reaction to D&D 4th edition, and looking at this image again, I�m glad to be reminded of that. DCC RPG stands alone.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:06

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

Covok posted:

They made a kickstarter update where they admitted they wanted this picture of a cultist burning a book to be burning 4e because he was bitter about the loss of the OGL.

That plus the poor performance of Goodman Games' 4e products, yeah.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:06

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Covok posted:

They made a kickstarter update where they admitted they wanted this picture of a cultist burning a book to be burning 4e because he was bitter about the loss of the OGL.

I'd say that's more than fair, 4e not having an OGL, and 5e only recently obtaining a sort of one kinda screwed over a ton of people in the industry for a while

# ? Feb 15, 2016 00:11

Zurui: Apr 20, 2005; Even now...

Lightning Lord posted:

Any of you ever try hexcrawl in a game that isn't really designed for it? I posted about wanting to try a Vampire Dark Ages hexcrawl in the WoD thread but it was pretty much ignored.

What do you mean, hexcrawl? In a city (the traditional place for a Vampire game)? So you want to map it out by zones/neighborhoods? I think that sounds fantastic and if you do it you should share about it here.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 09:37

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

gradenko_2000 posted:

In what sense? I sort of figured that duplicating the Strike Commander tavern scenes for mission selection is a fine way to run a campaign, of any game.

Zurui posted:

What do you mean, hexcrawl? In a city (the traditional place for a Vampire game)? So you want to map it out by zones/neighborhoods? I think that sounds fantastic and if you do it you should share about it here.

OK so let me tell you about my campaign.

Kind of funny that you bring up an old computer game, gradenko since basically, I'm ripping off the old CRPG Darklands. That's a historical fantasy game about a group of adventurers wandering around the Holy Roman Empire in the early 15th century, looking for fame. Eventually they get caught up in a demonic conspiracy. The game I'm doing is about a group of neonates given the general task of rooting out Infernalists. I might stick with the HRE, but I've been reading about the Byzantine Empire and Medieval Russia, so I might transfer it there. I think it will be interesting to craft a hexcrawl for vampires, especially with considerations like having to find shelter from sunlight and feeding. I want to see how the VDA 20 rules work in a hexcrawl situation too. So any advice or resources I should take a look at?

# ? Feb 15, 2016 10:12

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I think the key parts of any hexcrawl are that the map is relatively unexplored at first, it gets filled in as the players explore in any given direction, and that even the GM is, in a way, themselves not entirely aware of what the next hex/section/region/point over will contain.

15th century levels of technology would be just about perfect for such a thing.

# ? Feb 15, 2016 12:09

Evil Mastermind: Apr 28, 2008

DriveThru finally has Dwarves of Rockhome up, meaning that they've finally managed to complete the GAZ series. :woop:

# ? Feb 16, 2016 16:35

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

OD&D Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry has also been (re)released. This has Psionics, Druids, a rather involved initiative system, demon-type monsters, and iconic artifact items like the Vecna's Hand and Eye and the Wand of Orcus.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 16:50

Byers2142: May 5, 2011; Imagine I said something deep here...

gradenko_2000 posted:

And as of the latest update, the creator has finally given a preview of the game's core mechanics:

David Black and Peter Regan been discussing this game some more on Kickstarter and elsewhere, here's some additional tidbits that he's dropped:

The second stretch goal is a procedurely generated setting, and Black gave a brief preview here. In short, you use dice to build a map, which tells you what buildings are in the town, and let players wandering around being their usual murder-hobo selves to flesh out everything else in the setting. I'm stealing the drop table map generation idea.
The four classes are Warrior, Thief, Cleric, and Conjurer. And it sounds like they're getting some class powers, such as "The warrior class has a special abilities whereby they can sunder a shield (completely destroying it) and ignoring the damage." Also, damage is tied to class. "Weapon damage is handle by class - a warrior deals 1d8 damage with weapons or 1d6 using improvised weapons. A Conjurer deals d4 damage with weapons or 1 point if improvising. The rational is that every sharp bladed instrument is capable of poking you full of holes, causing you to leak to death - But the effectiveness of doing so is determined by your training."
Two pages of monsters (each monster on a single line) come with the game, and there's no treasure generation rules. The rationale is that you can get more monsters from anywhere you want and they're easy to convert, and that everyone already has a treasure generation system they enjoy. Black said he may put his own treasure generation system on the GM screen, but that it's not in the book.

I'm iffy on the damage tied solely to class (2-H weapons would never be used in place of a shield and axe/sword/lasso) and it sounds like races are right out of the rules as written, unless they broke the usual B/X rule of race as a class. But for under $2, I'm still liking what they're putting out for it so far.

# ? Feb 16, 2016 18:50

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Evil Mastermind posted:

DriveThru finally has Dwarves of Rockhome up, meaning that they've finally managed to complete the GAZ series.

Now we need the Creature Crucible and Hollow World books, and we'll have most of the relevant BX/BECMI/RC D&D books available legally again

# ? Feb 17, 2016 00:51

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

gradenko_2000 posted:

OD&D Supplement III: Eldritch Wizardry has also been (re)released. This has Psionics, Druids, a rather involved initiative system, demon-type monsters, and iconic artifact items like the Vecna's Hand and Eye and the Wand of Orcus.

Gods Demigods and Heroes is next...unless Moorcock goes ballistic.

# ? Feb 17, 2016 03:10

remusclaw: Dec 8, 2009

Byers2142 posted:

I'm iffy on the damage tied solely to class (2-H weapons would never be used in place of a shield and axe/sword/lasso) and it sounds like races are right out of the rules as written, unless they broke the usual B/X rule of race as a class. But for under $2, I'm still liking what they're putting out for it so far.

Nice little workaround to the two handed weapon issue is one that goes like this. Two handed weapon roll twice and take the highest result. Or, two handed weapons get a plus one to damage and dual wielding weapons roll twice and gets the highest result. Both however depend on a shield being good enough to be a viable option, or you end up with the same problem in reverse.

Another option I though of is, because dual wielding is more about defense anyhow, the musketeers for instance would use a parrying dagger or a cloak, but it would still present a second threat. So Shields give like a +2 ac. Dual weilding gives a +1 ac and a +1 to hit. Two handed gives a +2 to damage. Think I like this best.

remusclaw fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Feb 17, 2016

# ? Feb 17, 2016 23:50

Byers2142: May 5, 2011; Imagine I said something deep here...

remusclaw posted:

Nice little workaround to the two handed weapon issue is one that goes like this. Two handed weapon roll twice and take the highest result. Or, two handed weapons get a plus one to damage and dual wielding weapons roll twice and gets the highest result. Both however depend on a shield being good enough to be a viable option, or you end up with the same problem in reverse.

Another option I though of is, because dual wielding is more about defense anyhow, the musketeers for instance would use a parrying dagger or a cloak, but it would still present a second threat. So Shields give like a +2 ac. Dual weilding gives a +1 ac and a +1 to hit. Two handed gives a +2 to damage. Think I like this best.

I'm not sure it would balance, because there is no AC. Armor is damage reduction, but the damage reduction goes away until you rest. So the DR would only stay through that first hit, but the damage/hit bonus would stay always. Like you said, it tips the other way a bit.

Personally, I like the idea of a cap on damage based on class, but damage still determined by weapon. Hell, that way you can get rid of weapon proficiency at the same time. You are a mage and want to carry a sword? Ok, but you're capped at a d4 for damage.

Then uncap the fighter, because fighters should be awesome.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 00:00

remusclaw: Dec 8, 2009

Another idea I always liked was using shields as a disposable item, where it gave you the normal bonuses, but you could declare on a hit that the shield took it and splintered to negate all damage. This however runs up against the problem of magic shields, who wants to splinter their magic shield? That's the problem with changing stuff, you end up having to change all sorts of stuff.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 00:08

Byers2142: May 5, 2011; Imagine I said something deep here...

remusclaw posted:

Another idea I always liked was using shields as a disposable item, where it gave you the normal bonuses, but you could declare on a hit that the shield took it and splintered to negate all damage. This however runs up against the problem of magic shields, who wants to splinter their magic shield? That's the problem with changing stuff, you end up having to change all sorts of stuff.

That is in the game for fighters, and it's an awesome idea.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 00:12

GimpInBlack: Sep 27, 2012; That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.

Byers2142 posted:

I'm not sure it would balance, because there is no AC. Armor is damage reduction, but the damage reduction goes away until you rest. So the DR would only stay through that first hit, but the damage/hit bonus would stay always. Like you said, it tips the other way a bit.

There's no AC, but players still roll to avoid being hit, so the shield could modify that by +1 or so?

# ? Feb 18, 2016 00:20

A Strange Aeon: Mar 26, 2010; You are now a slimy little toad; The Great Twist

remusclaw posted:

Another idea I always liked was using shields as a disposable item, where it gave you the normal bonuses, but you could declare on a hit that the shield took it and splintered to negate all damage. This however runs up against the problem of magic shields, who wants to splinter their magic shield? That's the problem with changing stuff, you end up having to change all sorts of stuff.

Just don't have magic shields?

# ? Feb 18, 2016 21:54

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Am I wrong or did Spelljammer have dragon-centaura as a pc race?

# ? Feb 18, 2016 22:52

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Covok posted:

Am I wrong or did Spelljammer have dragon-centaura as a pc race?

I must have missed that :wth:

There was a bunch of "how to play a dragon" (and were dragon, halfdragon, etc) stuff in "Council of Wyrms", but I never read it.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 23:19

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

I found it. It's in the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook. They are called Dracons.

The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook posted:

The Dracons are dragon-centaurs that have recently appeared on the fringes of Known-Spheres.

They get +1 strength, -1 dexterity and can't advance past 12th or 14th level for Cleric and Fighers, the only classes they can take.

They are also a monster you can fight.

I knew I wasn't crazy.

# ? Feb 18, 2016 23:25

drrockso20: May 6, 2013; Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Covok posted:

I found it. It's in the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook. They are called Dracons.

They get +1 strength, -1 dexterity and can't advance past 12th or 14th level for Cleric and Fighers, the only classes they can take.

They are also a monster you can fight.

I knew I wasn't crazy.

And like all playable races in AD&D I suggest ignoring Level Limits and lightening up class restrictions isn't a bad idea either, cause neither idea has any real benefit besides punishing players who want to be anything besides a human(one of the reasons I'm not very fond of AD&D these days is how antagonistic in tone and intent it is against the players)

# ? Feb 18, 2016 23:58

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

drrockso20 posted:

And like all playable races in AD&D I suggest ignoring Level Limits and lightening up class restrictions isn't a bad idea either, cause neither idea has any real benefit besides punishing players who want to be anything besides a human(one of the reasons I'm not very fond of AD&D these days is how antagonistic in tone and intent it is against the players)

Level limits are dumb, but class restrictions made some sense in a setting-dependant way. (Of course its your game/your setting so do what you want.) As long as there was some sense/continuity to it class restrictions could add flavor. Even a player with a special "hey how are you one of those" characters that broke the "rule" can be ok without changing the world idea.

# ? Feb 19, 2016 04:23

Covok: May 27, 2013; Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Has anyone taken a look at those Night Owl Workshop games that claim to use the original D&D ruleset?

# ? Feb 25, 2016 02:22

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I wrote a bit about it a couple of pages back: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?action=showpost&postid=455888578

I've read through Warriors of the Red Planet completely, and setting aside the fact that it's using the OSR mechanical framework (it's the OSR thread, of course we're fine with it), they're very complete and playable games, including bestiaries and "how to theme a campaign of this properly"

# ? Feb 25, 2016 02:30

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

Covok posted:

Has anyone taken a look at those Night Owl Workshop games that claim to use the original D&D ruleset?

I have all three and they're excellent. I may try to run a PbP of Warriors of the Red Planet game actually.

# ? Feb 25, 2016 04:33

slap me and kiss me: Apr 1, 2008; You best protect ya neck

Question for discussion - what, in your opinion, are the highlights of Mentzer's Red Box introductory adventure, and what things would need to be updated for a modern version of the same?

Edit: I should clarify, I'm asking about the CYOA portion at the start of the book that's designed to teach people what the game is and how to play it.

slap me and kiss me fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Feb 25, 2016

# ? Feb 25, 2016 15:52

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Pfox posted:

Question for discussion - what, in your opinion, are the highlights of Mentzer's Red Box introductory adventure, and what things would need to be updated for a modern version of the same?

Ehh, run Keep on the Borderlands. Give them the proper 1981 experience. Put Bette Davis Eyes and Jesse's Girl on a loop.

# ? Feb 25, 2016 17:19

slap me and kiss me: Apr 1, 2008; You best protect ya neck

dwarf74 posted:

Ehh, run Keep on the Borderlands. Give them the proper 1981 experience. Put Bette Davis Eyes and Jesse's Girl on a loop.

I should clarify, I'm asking about the CYOA portion at the start of the book that's designed to teach people what the game is and how to play it.

# ? Feb 25, 2016 17:23

gtrmp: Sep 29, 2008; Oba-Ma... Oba-Ma! Oba-Ma, aasha deh!

I think the CYOA equivalent from the Black Box "Basic Set" works better at actually teaching how the mechanics of the game work in practice.

# ? Feb 26, 2016 00:36

slap me and kiss me: Apr 1, 2008; You best protect ya neck

gtrmp posted:

I think the CYOA equivalent from the Black Box "Basic Set" works better at actually teaching how the mechanics of the game work in practice.

I'd forgotten about that. It was actually my first RPG.

# ? Feb 26, 2016 00:43

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I was thinking about what someone said that D&D is actually heavily based on percentiles, just represented with a d20, and especially how early D&D made frequent references to things like "By striking silently from behind, the thief gains two advantages: First, he increases the chance to hit by 20% (+4 on his die)" and the likes

So I figured, why not go whole hog and go with percentiles? Under OD&D rules, you'd have something like:

pre:

AC	  Description             Chance to Hit
9          Unarmored                  55.00%
8          Shield Only                50.00%
7          Leather Armor              45.00%
6          Leather Armor & Shield     40.00%
5          Chain Mail                 35.00%
4          Chain Mail & Shield        30.00%
3          Plate Armor                25.00%
2          Plate Armor & Shield       20.00%

As a Fighter, increase chance to hit by
10% at level 4
15% at level 7
10% at level 10
10% at level 13
15% at level 16

As a Cleric, increase chance to hit by
10% at level 5
15% at level 9
10% at level 13
10% at level 17
15% at level 21

As a Magic-User, increase chance to hit by
10% at level 6
15% at level 11
10% at level 16
10% at level 21
15% at level 26

Under this model, you'd write down your chance-to-hit per given AC on a character sheet, and when you attack a target, the DM tells you the thing's AC, you roll percentiles, and you hit if the percentile result is equal to or less than corresponding chance-to-hit for that AC.

Passive modifiers like +5% chance to hit for having a Sword+1 or +5% to +15% chance to hit for having high STR / DEX (depending on which ruleset you're using) could be rolled-in to the base written chance-to-hit list, while circumstantial modifiers could just be thrown in on a spur of the moment like the GM giving you +10% for flanking.

I dunno, I just thought this could possibly be easier to understand than the THAC0 or even the Target20 rigmarole, and gives you a better perspective of your actual chances of hitting the thing you're attacking. For example, if you the DM are throwing AC 6 or lower targets against low-level players and you're not using higher STR bonuses, then you know that it's going to be a whiff-fest barring circumstantial bonuses.

gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Feb 26, 2016

# ? Feb 26, 2016 11:26

Siivola: Dec 23, 2012

That's... Actually pretty elegant, I think. Huh. I like that.

It feels like you must be missing something because no way is rolling to hit that easy, but no.

# ? Feb 26, 2016 11:40

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 17:43

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

gradenko_2000 posted:

Under this model, you'd write down your chance-to-hit per given AC on a character sheet, and when you attack a target, the DM tells you the thing's AC, you roll percentiles, and you hit if the percentile result is equal to or less than corresponding chance-to-hit for that AC.

It's totally intuitive that AC gets better with a smaller number when you describe it as "percent chance to hit this monster".

# ? Feb 26, 2016 12:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Older D&D and Retroclone Thread: From OD&D To 4E

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