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WhyteRyce posted:At one point opening Outlook would take drat near 5 minutes before it would respond because McAfee was going to go in and scan every drat thing it could My newest 6c/12t work laptop felt waaaay slower than my 4c8t Skylake personal laptop probably in large part because of McAfee endpoint poo poo. Manages to make an (at the time) brand new x1 extreme run like dogshit.
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Sep 11, 2022 01:15
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WhyteRyce posted:At one point opening Outlook would take drat near 5 minutes before it would respond because McAfee was going to go in and scan every drat thing it could I could not get them to change anything since it was a company-wide configuration they got working they didn't want to touch. And the McAfee appears to fight for resources gladiator-style with a Tanium scanning program every time I log back into the locked computer. I gave up fighting their BS and rigid bureaucracy and look forward to leaving soon, hopefully to another company where their security teams are much more skilled to not have the user get bogged down by the security software all day while trying to get real work done. nnnotime fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 01:46
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i can't imagine dealing with corporate software bloat these days lol i'm using a personal M1 macbook air over the work issued 2019 intel 15" just because of how much slower the latter is
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Sep 11, 2022 01:49
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Yeah no I'm glad I can access my work stuff Over The Cloud because trying to respond to emails with a laptop i3 on an HDD with two kinds of endpoint protection is bad juju
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Sep 11, 2022 03:18
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movax posted:Even your average desktop running Excel or whatever software reception needs? especially these users That user has a browser open, a pdf, excel, maybe a streaming or music service, email, plus the os itself god help you if there's an electron-based chat program and a few security/configuration agents as well a 2.1ghz quad core low power mobile die just does not cut it anymore. it'll load stuff, but the user will see the system crumple and freeze when swapping apps, and frankly a 3-4 second wait for a PDF to come up or email to pop back open from behind the browser is not perceived as an acceptable user experience anymore it's why surface pros were phased out of my fleet. even the max power cpu was absurdly unsuited to the task of browsing back and forth between email correspondence and a contract with a bunch of change tracking on it Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 05:29
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Fair points — I didn’t realize the bloat had gotten so bad, for about the past decade I’ve worked at a series of small startups / companies that effectively turned into BYOD; my current firm we don’t have even have a domain or similar setup. Never had McAfee / other monitoring / endpoint security crap. So I’m free to configure my machines the way I want… though Zoom/Teams are still absolute shitpiles. I don’t use any of the virtual background stuff, but I’ve decided to just use my iPad for video calls. Office 365 makes me lose my poo poo sometimes, but that’s not CPU bloat fall (I think?) — more that seemingly every dialog makes some kind of network access in the back and god help you if your connection isn’t smooth. Software always continuing the fine tradition of reversing our gains in hardware performance. 
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Sep 11, 2022 16:21
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Are Teams desktop clients still just a poorly optimized wrapper for the core web app code?
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Sep 11, 2022 16:27
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Potato Salad posted:especially these users I think its actually the POS SSDs they put in these..
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Sep 11, 2022 17:16
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VorpalFish posted:My newest 6c/12t work laptop felt waaaay slower than my 4c8t Skylake personal laptop probably in large part because of McAfee endpoint poo poo. Manages to make an (at the time) brand new x1 extreme run like dogshit. I got my new X1 with a generic Lenovo image, and then had to enroll it and have everything installed myself. For a few blessed days before I did it, it was so fast and smooth. You can really feel all the bloat slow your brand new machine down, it's amazing. I have a tiny Jasper Lake laptop and even with a no-name Chinese SSD, in practice it feels the same for day to day usage. WhyteRyce posted:Are Teams desktop clients still just a poorly optimized wrapper for the core web app code?
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Sep 11, 2022 18:40
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It's the future(TM). Next they're moving the mail/calendar apps in Windows 11 to a unified Outlook web app. Just wait until Paint goes into the 
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Sep 11, 2022 20:49
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I think you guys don't appreciate how bloated those corporate cybersec clients have become
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Sep 12, 2022 02:31
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Definitely not wrong, something happened with an update on my work laptop and McAfee and wtvr was attached to it (some live feed of bs on networks, forget what it was called) was broke as gently caress for a few days. But man everything on that laptop was so smooth and responsive, it felt like a new machine. Didn't last long unfortunately.
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Sep 12, 2022 03:15
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As someone that works on endpoint software and has it deployed on our own laptops I don't think it's all that bad. Once in a while it can suck when we have a bug but we consider excessive CPU usage to be top priority bug to fix especially because the same developers trying to deploy the fix are hit by issues themselves. It's also the case that a ton of our customers use not just us but more than 3 other pieces of endpoint management software at the same time because they're trying to compare them all to each other constantly in some perpetual battle of IT politics or something. Of course everyone's going to wind up blaming each other and we have to troubleshoot other companies' endpoint software in a solid chunk of our cases as a result. Most people don't do that and even in our own fleet we don't have problems running two major versions of our stuff at the same time at least either. With that said there's definitely going to be a CPU hit as we're running all sorts of ML inference and high frequency instrumentation logic that's necessary as attacks get more and more clever, so in a way you can blame corporate endpoint software for getting piggier because the value of owned systems keeps going up. I'm a bit surprised that the F100 hasn't moved to basically thin client laptops and VDI everywhere by now. If a bunch of companies can pay for their offshore developers to all have VDI setups it doesn't seem like cost nor infrastructure are the limiting factors.
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Sep 12, 2022 03:42
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necrobobsledder posted:As someone that works on endpoint software and has it deployed on our own laptops I don't think it's all that bad. Once in a while it can suck when we have a bug but we consider excessive CPU usage to be top priority bug to fix especially because the same developers trying to deploy the fix are hit by issues themselves. It's also the case that a ton of our customers use not just us but more than 3 other pieces of endpoint management software at the same time because they're trying to compare them all to each other constantly in some perpetual battle of IT politics or something. Of course everyone's going to wind up blaming each other and we have to troubleshoot other companies' endpoint software in a solid chunk of our cases as a result. Most people don't do that and even in our own fleet we don't have problems running two major versions of our stuff at the same time at least either. With that said there's definitely going to be a CPU hit as we're running all sorts of ML inference and high frequency instrumentation logic that's necessary as attacks get more and more clever, so in a way you can blame corporate endpoint software for getting piggier because the value of owned systems keeps going up. Related, can today's latest CPU's cover that Endpoint overhead effectively? Silly question but I have to ask it.
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Sep 12, 2022 05:32
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necrobobsledder posted:As someone that works on endpoint software and has it deployed on our own laptops I don't think it's all that bad. Once in a while it can suck when we have a bug but we consider excessive CPU usage to be top priority bug to fix especially because the same developers trying to deploy the fix are hit by issues themselves. It's also the case that a ton of our customers use not just us but more than 3 other pieces of endpoint management software at the same time because they're trying to compare them all to each other constantly in some perpetual battle of IT politics or something. Of course everyone's going to wind up blaming each other and we have to troubleshoot other companies' endpoint software in a solid chunk of our cases as a result. Most people don't do that and even in our own fleet we don't have problems running two major versions of our stuff at the same time at least either. With that said there's definitely going to be a CPU hit as we're running all sorts of ML inference and high frequency instrumentation logic that's necessary as attacks get more and more clever, so in a way you can blame corporate endpoint software for getting piggier because the value of owned systems keeps going up. Most companies wants specific features for the products they choose, and the bigger the company the more specific they will end up being. So, they vendor shop to find what they want, then mash it all together: Vendor A: AV, and also an enterprise management agent that lets you manage, repair, and monitor that AV at scale Vendor B: Application auditing and white listing. Even though it’s branded Vendor B, it clearly used to be a product from a different company that was acquired. Vendor C: system auditing and configuration reporting. Vendor D: system management Vendor E: agent that plugs in to Vendor D to solve scaling problems, also extends some system management functions. Vendor A again, this time with a DLP product. At least it’s managed by the same enterprise agent. Vendor B again, this time with a edge detection product that is from a different company they acquired. Vendor D, but a different arm that offers a data tagging and classification product. Vendor F, but they are being phased out even though their product performs no worse than any others, they didn’t bother to show this in any data and got replaced as a ‘performance fix’ last time around. Vendor G, application and hardware reliability monitoring, but they are also being replaced because the people who implemented the system left and the people who got tasked with maintaining it had neither the time, skill set or budget to do so. Vendor H, who is replacing Vendor Gs product with a lowball offer to get their foot in the door, knowing that the agent licensing is peanuts compared to the support hours billable at this scale. It can be a huge mess. Even thin client or other VDI solutions get caught up in this, as teams push to get their agents on the VDI for ~reasons~ so they stay relevant.
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Sep 12, 2022 06:27
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nnnotime posted:What helps to counter all the Endpoint overhead? More powerful CPU? More memory? Both? Or if you get a more powerful machine will the Endpoint software just help itself to expand itself to eat up the fresh computer resources available? It appears that at quite a few places the Endpoint administrators are not typically as conscientious as you about proper configuration (unfortunately). EoRaptor posted:Most companies wants specific features for the products they choose, and the bigger the company the more specific they will end up being.
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Sep 12, 2022 18:15
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redeyes posted:I think its actually the POS SSDs they put in these.. having spent hours in drtace with these poor things, I assure you it's the drat CPU  the ssds are low end but far from unsuitable
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Sep 12, 2022 19:08
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WhyteRyce posted:Are Teams desktop clients still just a poorly optimized wrapper for the core web app code? yep Microsoft really did say that they were placing a huge bet on making Teams the major Enterprise chat app, then decided to continue to pinch pennies by refusing to hire proper desktop experience engineers for the platforms runs on
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Sep 12, 2022 19:09
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Potato Salad posted:yep It's still better than what we were using until the start of this year. Skype
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Sep 12, 2022 20:00
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yeah but the Skype of these days is a hulking bloated mess compared to the slick simple desktop experience of yesteryear it's not the same 
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Sep 12, 2022 20:18
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necrobobsledder posted:Nothing really can fully obviate all the resources possibly used by endpoint software except maybe if we wrote stuff to handle ML operations better (it's fairly limited use cases typically) but it's collecting data that changes so a lot of it is about the developer skill and architecture of the endpoint product. Some products are really simple and barely do much because most of the processing and analysis is in the backend (with lots of drawbacks for it) so ML acceleration won't help there compared to more adaptive power management or any other method from waking up the CPU constantly, which is still fundamentally driven by the endpoint software in the end. Lots of software including from Microsoft themselves use a surprising amount of power as they keep interrupting CPU cycles so IMO the race is partly about getting better detections & response with as little data consumed as possible. Modern stuff has some partial neural net model on local users' machines so the kind of "neural" processor that Apple has is useful for keeping power usage down for normally quite power-intensive matrix operations. But because most operations are taxing I/O and banging on the kernel for info every so often there's not much that more cores nor memory will fix (I don't think any endpoint software works very well on the new efficiency cores as noted above but I may be out of date there). If anything not doing anything intensive on the machine helps because then syscalls don't need to be traced and accounted for as much, and signing more executables with exceptions will help as well. If your organization doesn't setup endpoint rules well it won't matter how powerful your endpoint is. People have written rules that do dumb things like full disk scans or that explode memory usage trying to cache and audit every single IP, DNS, or ARP request so even ideal, zero-resource-usage endpoint software can be abused by bad security admins that don't understand performance nor work with other orgs to avoid stomping on each other. Ironic that it's the poorly implemented responses to outside security threats that has motivated me to leave my long-term employer, and not the security threat itself. nnnotime fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 20:56
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It looks like Intel accidentally released some of the Raptor Lake specs. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-officially-publishes-specs-of-raptor-lake-cpus
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Sep 13, 2022 16:31
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Potato Salad posted:yeah but the Skype of these days is a hulking bloated mess compared to the slick simple desktop experience of yesteryear Also not the same: Regular Skype and Skype for business.
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Sep 13, 2022 18:44
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nnnotime posted:Ironic that it's the poorly implemented responses to outside security threats that has motivated me to leave my long-term employer, and not the security threat itself.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:19
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StarBegotten posted:It looks like Intel accidentally released some of the Raptor Lake specs. Well, at least this time it wasn't from someone internally running a benchmark program on an unreleased product and adding the score to the leaderboard
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Sep 14, 2022 17:26
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Potato Salad posted:yep quote:Microsoft Teams stores cleartext auth tokens, won’t be quickly patched 
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Sep 15, 2022 20:05
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So what you are saying is MS made teams an Electron app? *giggles*
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Sep 15, 2022 22:43
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Shocked to hear that yet again an electron app has a goatman sized vulnerability.
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Sep 15, 2022 22:54
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If your system is compromised, it really doesn't matter whether your client stores tokens in clear text. This is someone trying to make a non-issue into a major problem.
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Sep 16, 2022 00:00
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Criss-cross posted:If your system is compromised, it really doesn't matter whether your client stores tokens in clear text. This is someone trying to make a non-issue into a major problem. remember meltdown/spectre? i don't
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Sep 16, 2022 00:43
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I was just reading an article about Pat Gelsinger admitting that Intel was gonna axe more business lines. And that reminded me that I was doing some deliveries today, and as I came over a hill I saw 6 or 7 very large cranes (not tower cranes, but the tracked kind with two-segment booms) in the mid distance. Turns out they were all at Intel Fab 11X, which appears to be under heavy reconstruction/reconfiguration. Either that or it's just being taken apart, but that seems improbable since Wikipedia says it was upgraded to 14mm two years ago. But then again, it used to (and according to Intel's website still is, lol) where Optane happens. Edit: It's being overhauled for Foveros: https://www.hpcwire.com/2021/05/03/intel-invests-3-5-billion-in-new-mexico-fab-to-focus-on-foveros/
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Sep 16, 2022 04:39
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mdxi posted:I was just reading an article about Pat Gelsinger admitting that Intel was gonna axe more business lines. And that reminded me that I was doing some deliveries today, and as I came over a hill I saw 6 or 7 very large cranes (not tower cranes, but the tracked kind with two-segment booms) in the mid distance. Yeah it's being expanded heavily for 3D packaging and test, helps a lot with the proximity to the AZ main fabs compared to OR which is pretty far and heavily dedicated to TD already. I think the NM fabs were always close to shutting down before this too, so this was a much needed lifeline for those folks.
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Sep 16, 2022 05:05
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end of an era https://twitter.com/VideoCardz/status/1570787196923416576
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Sep 16, 2022 16:20
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This seems ill advised… you can see future shopping discussions like: “No don’t buy that one, everybody knows Intel processors are trash” “Oh, ok, hand over the AMD naming wheel” hobbesmaster fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 17:49
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An ignoble end for Pentium… was bummed when it got dumped to budget land after Core.
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Sep 16, 2022 21:09
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hobbesmaster posted:This seems ill advised… you can see future shopping discussions like: they've learned from the masters at unity, who require the unity logo to be prominently displayed in games on their cheapest license tiers so their brand has become synonymous with cheap garbage games
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Sep 16, 2022 21:11
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How hard is it to just call it "Core Standard?"
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Sep 16, 2022 22:23
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BIG HEADLINE posted:How hard is it to just call it "Core Standard?" They explicitly don't want to attach the Core brand to the cheapo mobile parts that might piss people off with their slowness, lol
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Sep 16, 2022 22:48
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movax posted:An ignoble end for Pentium… was bummed when it got dumped to budget land after Core. It’s pretty wild it lasted as long as it did, iirc it was supposed to be based on five for the 586. Intel never gave us a Sexium though  E: lol they did trademark it though https://alter.com/trademarks/sexium-74695934
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Sep 16, 2022 22:58
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Optane was such a cool technology but I also understand why it wasn't considered a great product.
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Sep 16, 2022 22:59
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