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Badger of Basra posted:it sounds like you're saying workplace discrimination doesn't matter if the workplace is ideologically incorrect Lmao, I didn't say poo poo; I was asking for clarification of the quoted post, and it is often useful to paraphrase when checking.
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Jul 14, 2016 03:59
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Pinterest Mom posted:You're literally citing her mental health in the same breath as you're dismissing her opinions. it wasn't her opinions, it was the manner in which she was presenting them and the way she hounded other twitter users to the point of getting them fired hope this helps  if i was unclear about that in the thread i apologize~
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Jul 14, 2016 04:00
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Error 404 posted:The thing is people on your side of the argument are not saying it. Like, at all. i already posted this but it deserves another looksee so its ok ;p
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Jul 14, 2016 04:01
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Homework Explainer posted:lol i think error 404 retweeted me during a back-and-forth on this very topic Haha quite likely. Today's been heated E: say hi if you want to Error 404 has issued a correction as of 04:04 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 04:02
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Tatum Girlparts posted:in what world did I call it a 'great victory'? Just trying to understand you better, as initial readings of your posts seem non-sequitur to me. I don't think your example follows, because the VA can be seen as a separate entity from the military. Regardless, I would personally say that the passing of legislation for issue A and issue B are neither guaranteed and can be pursued in parallel. There is some concern though that if A and B are sufficiently related, the passing of A decreases visibility and tables consideration of legislation for B. Finally, its not like I'm some Lord presiding over which groups/issues should be talked about and addressed.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:25
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Hajj Podge posted:Neo-Liberals have been desperately trying to claim the Progressive and Leftist mantle while not actually being either for years just to get votes. The legislation they pass and their administrations have always been derived on their corporate-first values. They vaguely pay lip service to Progressive and Leftist causes and they almost always gently caress up any implementation of actual good ideas that come from the left out of an interest to ~compromise~ with the opposition (either within the Democratic Party itself or from Republicans) that has no intentions of negotiating in good faith. Neo-Liberals do this in a misguided and naive desire to appear reasonable and mature. Instead, all they really accomplish is fattening their campaign warchests and loving over poor people and minorities in the process. To pretend that the Democratic Party is largely anything but a corrupt, cheap imitation of actual Progressivism or Socialism or Leftism of any kind is simply a big fat loving joke. They haven't been representative of Progressives or the Left in decades. It's extremely unlikely they ever will be again as long as they continue to drag the party to the right. This is an excellent post and I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you very much for making this post. Now I would like to use this as an opportunity to opine that progressive lefties in the U.S. today should reject both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party because it seems to me there is no way that either of these two parties will manage the budding global climate catastrophe in a way that isn't going to completely gently caress over the overwhelming majority of people living in the U.S. and throughout the world. The high likelihood that both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party will manage the budding global climate catastrophe in a way that will completely gently caress over the overwhelming majority of people living in the U.S. and throughout the world is also a major reason why I believe progressive lefties should reject incrementalism and embrace revolutionism. These are just my opinions and they may not count for much of anything, but I appreciate the consideration of everyone who is posting in and/or reading this thread! (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 14, 2016 04:35
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Bad Hat Meter posted:Now I would like to use this as an opportunity to opine that progressive lefties in the U.S. today should reject both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party because it seems to me there is no way that either of these two parties will manage the budding global climate catastrophe in a way that isn't going to completely gently caress over the overwhelming majority of people living in the U.S. and throughout the world. nah i agree with you. when i wrote the OP of this thread i was more optimistic about the state of the Democratic party but honestly left entryism has been tried before and what ends up happening is either people get hosed over, or they have to be pushed super hard and then end up watering the poo poo they were pushed for down, half the time. or both. i think a big goal to work towards would be getting rid of the first past the post model for elections. and basically, try to make infrastructure that can support third parties from the local level on up. beyond that i'm a little lost at the moment; i know more about the nature of the problems we face than feasible solutions. but it's a learning process.
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Jul 14, 2016 04:48
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can someone please explain what the step after 'embrace revolutionism' is? Like, not trying to be an rear end in a top hat but I've almost never heard what's supposed to happen after leftists all agree 'yes incrimental change is bad now, revolution or nothing'.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:10
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Tatum Girlparts posted:can someone please explain what the step after 'embrace revolutionism' is? Like, not trying to be an rear end in a top hat but I've almost never heard what's supposed to happen after leftists all agree 'yes incrimental change is bad now, revolution or nothing'. They get obliterated in elections and the GOP makes Fallout real.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:13
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coalesce around an organization, develop theory and programs to assist and educate the working class. the black panthers had the right idea on just about everything but they got cointelpro'd
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Jul 14, 2016 05:21
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Homework Explainer posted:coalesce around an organization, develop theory and programs to assist and educate the working class. the black panthers had the right idea on just about everything but they got cointelpro'd but what organization? I mean obviously you're going to say yours (that's fine, I say mine, politics!) but what happens when the revolutionaries disagree on which revolutionary group to follow? Like, you know how many Socialist parties there are right? Who bends the knee in that situation to get this unified Socialist revolution going?
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Jul 14, 2016 05:28
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like homework explainer said. organization, education, promotion of consciousness. after that we probably differ. I'm totally cool with whatever consensus the movement comes to democratically though. Tatum Girlparts posted:but what organization? I mean obviously you're going to say yours (that's fine, I say mine, politics!) but what happens when the revolutionaries disagree on which revolutionary group to follow? Like, you know how many Socialist parties there are right? Who bends the knee in that situation to get this unified Socialist revolution going? democracy of the direct variety imo
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Jul 14, 2016 05:29
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Tatum Girlparts posted:but what organization? I mean obviously you're going to say yours (that's fine, I say mine, politics!) but what happens when the revolutionaries disagree on which revolutionary group to follow? Like, you know how many Socialist parties there are right? Who bends the knee in that situation to get this unified Socialist revolution going? that's a real problem. honestly with sectarianism being what it is the better plan is to build strong cadres to work with and among the masses. the democracy of membership rolls will determine who has the best line
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Jul 14, 2016 05:38
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nah, I think we should make a new town in, say, New England somewhere. Get people to pledge to move there, and contribute some funding. It will be a new
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Jul 14, 2016 05:43
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Palicgofueniczekt posted:nah, I think we should make a new town in, say, New England somewhere. Get people to pledge to move there, and contribute some funding. It will be a new No Glenn, we've talked about this.
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Jul 14, 2016 05:45
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sounds good do you have lots of money?
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Jul 14, 2016 05:45
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um we just have to make a KICKSTARTER duh
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Jul 14, 2016 05:51
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Palicgofueniczekt posted:nah, I think we should make a new town in, say, New England somewhere. Get people to pledge to move there, and contribute some funding. It will be a new what do we call the political opposite of Galt's Gulch. Stalin's Skyline?
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Jul 14, 2016 05:56
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Jul 14, 2016 06:02
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Guevara's Gulch Lenin's Landing
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Jul 14, 2016 06:05
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friends, uh, i think there's unpleasant historical precedent here
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Jul 14, 2016 06:06
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i will gladly die fighting against the yuppies to defend my glorious commonwealth of burnouts and non conformists
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Jul 14, 2016 06:09
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Tatum Girlparts posted:can someone please explain what the step after 'embrace revolutionism' is? Like, not trying to be an rear end in a top hat but I've almost never heard what's supposed to happen after leftists all agree 'yes incrimental change is bad now, revolution or nothing'. If you want a serious answer, then it is to continue promoting and supporting candidates with left wing ideologies while spreading the general message. This is pretty much how left wing parties get power in democracy all over the world. The right wing in America did more or less the same thing.
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Jul 14, 2016 07:44
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im just going to post this dancing frog and calm down Top City Homo has issued a correction as of 08:46 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 08:41
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corporate diversity is driven by [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprador] compradorism[/url], whose entire purpose drives a sort of affinity scam against society
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Jul 14, 2016 08:54
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Classic Comrade posted:um we just have to make a KICKSTARTER duh ill make the website
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Jul 14, 2016 08:55
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happy bastille day everyone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu3eSNi__4w
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Jul 14, 2016 16:21
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punk rebel ecks posted:If you want a serious answer, then it is to continue promoting and supporting candidates with left wing ideologies while spreading the general message. This is pretty much how left wing parties get power in democracy all over the world. The right wing in America did more or less the same thing. Exactly. A lot of people are already doing this with progressive candidates running for Congress in this election
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Jul 14, 2016 16:51
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TinFoilJoy posted:Exactly. A lot of people are already doing this with progressive candidates running for Congress in this election That's even theoretically what this very thread is about!
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Jul 14, 2016 16:53
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Pinterest Mom posted:I'm a jackass fixed
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Jul 15, 2016 00:16
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Palicgofueniczekt posted:nah, I think we should make a new town in, say, New England somewhere. Get people to pledge to move there, and contribute some funding. It will be a new Gentrify homelessness into megamalls/dormatories that lie midway between junction cities in the middle of nowhere.
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Jul 15, 2016 06:52
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Serious question: how do you think the Free State Project would react to a counter project with democratic socialist goals setting up shop in New Hampshire as well?
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Jul 15, 2016 08:37
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Palicgofueniczekt posted:Serious question: how do you think the Free State Project would react to a counter project with democratic socialist goals setting up shop in New Hampshire as well? Assuming either actually happened? Open warfare within a generation if not sooner.
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Jul 15, 2016 08:40
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FSP reached their pledge goal in February. If they stick to it, that will be 20k people invading New Hampshire between now and 2021. Wikipedia suggests they have less that 5% of the state assembly seats (or whatever the NH nomenclature may be).
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Jul 15, 2016 09:07
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FSP will never be relevant there. Hell, even the OWS group in Manchester tricked them in their "alliance" and got them arrested for crashing the protest by creating an S-corp and punting them out. In order to remain, you had to sign a pledge that stated you oppose Citizen's United and severe tax hikes on the rich GonadTheBallbarian has issued a correction as of 14:04 on Jul 15, 2016 |
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Jul 15, 2016 14:00
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Back to the topic for a bit: I'm in Redondo Beach, CA. It's a small town in LA county. If I'm interested in supporting progressive policy, who should I vote for?
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Jul 17, 2016 04:15
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I'm going to preface this upfront by noting that I've been a progressive as long as I can remember knowing what that is, I think capitalism has about run its course as the global economic system, and I hope that leftist economic ideas gain much greater appreciation as a result of Sanders' campaign. Other disclosure: I went to a district level Democratic caucus in May but it ran a gazillion hours long because of Sanders supporters making noises about corruption and harassing the poor, weak-willed chair, so I left probably hours before voting on delegates to go to the next level would've occurred. I expect a bunch of those angry Sanders alternates got seated because I wasn't the only precinct delegate to ragequit. It was agonizing because people were ascribing to corruption what could be much better explained by poor organization, and I could tell the repeated accusations and acrimony deeply hurt the party officials. Never go to "corruption" or "evil" as the first explanation for any action. ever. These people went in looking for villains, looking for a corrupt system. It was really upsetting. It's frustrating in part because there are places where there is rampant corruption in the Democratic Party, but this was in Washington, in South King County. ugh.  Error 404 posted:The thing is people on your side of the argument are not saying it. Like, at all. but... That response to the letter seems like the whole argument in a nutshell, and is a large part of why class-focused leftists are likely going to have basically zero successes (unless they stop insisting that anyone that criticizes them is a corporate shill). The author barely reads the letter, then she highlights a few random parts to accuse the people of "erasure", and basically responds to their legitimate grievances about how women and minorities are bullied and demeaned on a regular basis by many people within the leftist movement by not responding to it at all. Their point is that every time this is pointed out, they're accused of being corporate shills. This response isn't quite that far into jackass territory, but rather than substantively respond to the points the author worries about how their worldview makes it impossible for them to understand how oppression works because they're ignoring the capitalist element. WHICH ISN'T IN EVIDENCE IN THE ORIGINAL LETTER. She also talks about problems that haven't been solved with this approach, but fails to provide concrete examples, just assumes everyone knows what she's talking about. It's a piss-poor rebuttal built on assumptions not in evidence. this paragraph is awful: quote:The PROBLEM with the letter, in the final account, is that it asks us to go on as we have. It shows us problems we specifically adopted identity politics to solve. It shows us that they are still there, but shames any critique of the tactics which have done nothing to alleviate them (while the examples in the letter are from a very broad left, in which identity politics cannot be said to be the rule of the land; the exact same problems pop up in those communities which pride themselves on being the most intersectional). It raises the spectre of the ascendant right, but will not come to grips with the fact that it is completely impotent in the face of this. The bold bit? Where in the original letter does it do this? I'm not seeing it. What I'm seeing is someone trying to impose their own narrative on the letter without actually reading what the letter says. The letter's like: yo, the progressive movement has an issue and we're sick of being silenced for trying to address it; and this writer responds "IDENTITY POLITICS HAS FAILED". Look, I'm not coming in here to troll or anything, but this argument profoundly bothers me because I'm pretty sure this issue of distrust between class-oriented progressives and identity-oriented progressives (who really have an enormous amount in common and shouldn't be at odds) could strangle any chance of a robust progressive movement in this country before it gets out of its crib. The whole Bernie bro thing gained traction because it described an existing phenomenon (describing a vocal minority of Sanders supporters), but was then picked up by people more interested in division than unity to use for their own purposes. but the knowledge of that gave people cover not to change or police their own community. If anyone criticized them or someone in their community, they could tar them with the same brush as the assholes, and brush off the criticisms as illegitimate. And things like that letter, they could declare its authors agents of Hillary Clinton/the corporations/insert boogeyman here. Never mind that they're just good-intentioned people with 90% the same political views that want to not be treated like poo poo in leftist circles when they voice their concerns.
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Jul 17, 2016 05:45
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Spatula City posted:
Boy it's almost as if that's the point of implementing tactics such as, say, . quote:The whole Bernie bro thing And are you seriously blaming Bernie supporters for not responding well to being painted largely as racist misogynists?
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Jul 17, 2016 06:22
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You're missing the point, the response isn't that 'demeaning and bullying' doesn't happen. Such behavior happens within any group of people, it of course has to be retrained. The response to the letter is that these accusations are being used politically, to delegitimize leftists by other 'progressives'. To use an example that was in the original letter, The BLM women who rudely interrupted Sanders are being cast as the victims, yet the have no basis for these accusations of victimization other than 'people didn't want us there' - no poo poo they didn't want you there, they wanted to see Sanders, which you prevented. You're not the loving victim, you're self-centered assholes. Yet, to not automatically be deferred to, to not be treated with kid-gloves when they hosed up, the fact that they interpret this as 'abuse', is not only insulting to actual victims of abuse, it serves 0 practical purpose for improving organizational ability. It did nothing but weaken the movement. It's after repeated events such as these, where class progressives are sidelined with this kind of elitist dismissal of both the theory and practice of progressiveness (they're just brogressives! Berniebros! etc etc.) that the true face of identity politics is revealed - it is not an emancipatory ideology, it's divisive, and it's been adopted wholesale by a group of people who have no interest or desire to see actual, material equality (because they personally benefit from inequality), to silence dissent coming from the left. It gives a bunch of trust fund kids both the ability pretend to be good people, all the while shoving their foot down on anyone below them, because they're not using the right language, spewing out the same empty bullshit. More tax cuts or tax holidays for corporations is 'being realistic', but poo poo like bathrooms gets repeated and constant support. It's not that that support is somehow wrong, but it's also pretty clear where the priorities among identitarians lie, and it's firmly among the somewhat minor inconveniences that rich people have, or think about most of the time - whether their favorite movies are morally acceptable to them, or whether university campuses have a mission statement that's including enough buzzwords, or whether or not some idiot on twitter SAID A BAD, or blah blah blah blah blah. Get this: no one outside of your little incestuous circle cares. You're too detached from the poo poo that actually matters, to be anything other than a running joke to the people looking in from the outside. You have no idea how much you're loathed by people outside that circle. Let's hope you never have to find out. rudatron has issued a correction as of 08:10 on Jul 17, 2016 |
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Jul 17, 2016 08:05
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Lol @ people who actually think "BernieBros" is a legitimate thing and that all Hillary supporters are gun-ho want to be progressives out to get Bernie.This is the reality. Few people give a poo poo. Only internet nerds.
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Jul 17, 2016 08:43
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