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There's a big difference between rebelling against an oppressive government and rebelling against the government because they want to take away your ability to legally enslave black people.
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Nov 1, 2017 14:26
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Cyrano4747 posted:This really isn't an issue of hypersensitive millennials getting their feels hurt by seeing images of men who did unpleasant things 150+ years ago. It's about monuments that were put up by white supremacists to celebrate their position in society and serve as a very loving public reminder to everyone about just who the "top rung" was. It's no accident that these things weren't put up 10 years after the war but during the height of Jim Crow, between 1900 and 1940. this was a really great post I don't think (or at least I hope) that many people have huge issues with the regimental monuments bought by small towns and put up to honor their dead on various battlefields, nor the handful of immediately postwar monuments that mostly surround churches and town halls. Unfortunately I don't think that this particular debate is very nuanced. Also it'd be great if we could leave the CSA flags in books and movies and video games.
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Nov 1, 2017 14:32
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bewbies posted:this was a really great post Yeah, I haven't personally run into anyone going after the kinds of memorials you're talking about. That said, I think we both know that it's inevitable that there is some twitter personality out there with a hot take about how those need to be taken out as well, and that the person trying to take a sledge hammer to Gettysburg monuments is the one that every guy trying to protect his small town's shrine to Stonewall Jackson is going to present as 100% typical.
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Nov 1, 2017 14:43
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Squalid posted:I'm not going to argue any further in favor of a book I haven't read but I think trying to intuit your way to understanding these sorts or complex historical processes in this way is going to mislead you 9/10 times. You can't common sense your way through these economic issues, you have to use data. The long tradition of horrendous economic mismanagement of the money supply from the Romans to modern Venezuela is proof enough of that. Sure, but the guy tries to batter his way from the assessments of other historians using "have you looked at 7 tons of coins". He's a coin collector, not an economist. quote:Burger’s own theories remain controversial in China, within the small circle of experts in numismatics. In 2003, the China Numismatic Museum, in Beijing, held a conference on his first book, Ch’ing Cash Until 1735, published in 1975. The assembled experts were incredulous. Seeing a lot of coins does not make your speculation about the causes of economic trends based on mint records more likely to be correct. This sort of nonsense argumentation rings all sorts of "nutcase" alarm bells to me. Fangz fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Nov 1, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 14:59
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Boo on missing the opportunity to name the book Ch-Ch'ing: Cash in Ancient China
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Nov 1, 2017 15:08
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bewbies posted:this was a really great post
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Nov 1, 2017 15:26
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Cyrano4747 posted:This really isn't an issue of hypersensitive millennials getting their feels hurt by seeing images of men who did unpleasant things 150+ years ago. It's about monuments that were put up by white supremacists to celebrate their position in society and serve as a very loving public reminder to everyone about just who the "top rung" was. It's no accident that these things weren't put up 10 years after the war but during the height of Jim Crow, between 1900 and 1940. He even goes after other southern states for not being as committed as North Carolina. What a douche. Southern guy posted:And I dare to affirm this day, that if every State of the South had done what North Carolina did without a murmer [sic], always faithful to its duty whatever the groans of the victims, there never would have been an Appomatox[sic]; Grant would have followed Meade and Pope; Burnside, Hooker, McDowell and McClellan, and the political geography of America would have been re-written.
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Nov 1, 2017 16:20
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SimonCat posted:He even goes after other southern states for not being as committed as North Carolina. What a douche.
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Nov 1, 2017 16:21
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Revisionism is a hell of a drug! And yeah, having statues to Mannerheim and Alexander II don't matter, since Finland is probably under no threat of Fascism these days, while tzarism in Russia is already back. Now, I don't think you'd find a statue to tzarist anyone in Lithuania and we recently had a scandal where a municipality put a board next to the graves of/monument to Soviet troops explaining just how much "saving" they did in Lithuania and what their role was in history in general.
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Nov 1, 2017 16:32
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JcDent posted:Revisionism is a hell of a drug! Lithuanians were some of the most "efficient" Nazi collaborationists. 
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Nov 1, 2017 16:39
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Two immutable things I've taken away from both many years of studying military history and from my own wartime experiences: 1) everybody is bad and so in general arguing about the relative moral high ground of a particular side in a particular war is silly and unwinnable, and 2) Nazis were objectively worse than everybody else, ever, so if you're going to make a moral war argument, do it against Nazis.
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Nov 1, 2017 16:46
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I think a good compromise would be to leave the Confederate monuments in place, and build statues of Sherman, Grant, and Lincoln pissing on then. Edit: Scratch that, make it a freed slave.
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Nov 1, 2017 16:47
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nat turner statue when
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Nov 1, 2017 16:53
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bewbies posted:Two immutable things I've taken away from both many years of studying military history and from my own wartime experiences: 1) everybody is bad and so in general arguing about the relative moral high ground of a particular side in a particular war is silly and unwinnable, and 2) Nazis were objectively worse than everybody else, ever, so if you're going to make a moral war argument, do it against Nazis. It's really troubling to see Nazis be rehabbed by a hopefully small but very loud group, and that's with there still being people alive who were around for fighting the actual Nazis. What is it going to be like in 50 years?
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Nov 1, 2017 16:57
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JcDent posted:Revisionism is a hell of a drug! A memorial board for Mannerheim went up in Russia a while back, that was fun.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:01
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Fangz posted:Sure, but the guy tries to batter his way from the assessments of other historians using "have you looked at 7 tons of coins". He's a coin collector, not an economist. I think you might be trying to read too much into a journalistic fluff piece trying to make an obscure topic interesting to lay readers using classic outsider vs insider tropes. Werner Burger's work is published by respectable university press and a cursory glance at google scholar pulls up many citations of his work by Chinese academics. His is not the profile of a crank or amateur, unless there's something you've seen that I've not.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:04
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Cyrano4747 posted:Yeah, I haven't personally run into anyone going after the kinds of memorials you're talking about. That said, I think we both know that it's inevitable that there is some twitter personality out there with a hot take about how those need to be taken out as well, and that the person trying to take a sledge hammer to Gettysburg monuments is the one that every guy trying to protect his small town's shrine to Stonewall Jackson is going to present as 100% typical. Well this happened in Canada this summer over a "nazi" anchor.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:06
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Plutonis posted:Lithuanians were some of the most "efficient" Nazi collaborationists. While we always tout the fact that we never formed an SS legion, we did do our part in killing our neighbour Jews. That said, we don't really have monuments for any Nazis and while there's currently something going about one of the partisan generals probably collaborating in killings, I don't know much about that asides from the thing possibly being a Russian psyop.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:11
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https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/925683022472589313 It's no Gay Viking but I doubt it struck fear in the heart of the Kriegsmarine
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Nov 1, 2017 17:16
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/925683022472589313 Every time I read a book about naval history and run into British ships with awesome names (which tend to be far more inspiring than American ship names), I remind myself about the Flower class.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:20
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She's a cutie. 
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Nov 1, 2017 17:22
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chitoryu12 posted:There's a big difference between rebelling against an oppressive government and rebelling against the government because they want to take away your ability to legally enslave black people. Yeah, the biggest problem with 'the ACW was caused by an inability of the North and South to compromise" is that that's only true if you accept the Southern premise that Black people don't count. If you include the views of everyone in the South in 1860 then there's a pretty even split on whether Slavery is a good idea, and once you include the North then the country as a whole is very much against it. 'The South' was not pro-slavery. White people in the South were pro-slavery.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:40
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/925683022472589313 I'm amazed the Flower Class started in 1939 - somebody had some foresight. The Flower Class might be as close as you can get to a naval militia. They also managed to be as nearly as uncomfortable for the crews as the U-boats they were fighting, quite an accomplishment for a surface ship.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:40
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bewbies posted:Two immutable things I've taken away from both many years of studying military history and from my own wartime experiences: 1) everybody is bad and so in general arguing about the relative moral high ground of a particular side in a particular war is silly and unwinnable, and 2) Nazis were objectively worse than everybody else, ever, so if you're going to make a moral war argument, do it against Nazis.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:44
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/925683022472589313 Tell that to the crew of the U-147, sunk by HMS Periwinkle. Looks like they mostly did escort duty during the battle of the Atlantic.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:44
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/RealTimeWWII/status/925683022472589313
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Nov 1, 2017 17:45
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sullat posted:Tell that to the crew of the U-147, sunk by HMS Periwinkle. Looks like they mostly did escort duty during the battle of the Atlantic.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:46
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13th KRRC War Diary, 1st Nov 1917 posted:Training continued. Copies of two weeks programmes are appended. Scans of the Appendices referenced are below.  
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Nov 1, 2017 17:50
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It looks cute in that photo! The armament seems pidly, with one gun, two x double Vickers .50 cals, two x Lewis guns (to scare seagulls?) and 40 depth charges. However, if you volunteer to serve on the Flower class or in the homo trench, it just shows the ladies that you're so manly that army had to sew a special pattern of pants just for you. What's also funny is how Cold War Soviet artillery gets flower names, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S1_Gvozdika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S3_Akatsiya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S4_Tyulpan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S5_Giatsint-S https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S7_Pion
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Nov 1, 2017 17:51
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Squalid posted:The is apparently a huge comprehensive history of the Qing economy that was recently published. By an eccentric German emigre and obsessive coin collector, it's an exhaustive exploration of official records found walled up in the Forbidden palace. Meticulously records of total coin production and state wages compared to the actual weight of surviving coins, it paints a picture of an economy that was unraveling, primary as a result of bad policy. I've never cared about numismatics before but I kind of want an abridged copy. There’s a lot of research on how innovation happens. That’s one of the core topics of science policy. Have a look at the output of somewhere like SPRU at Sussex or one of the scipol departments in the US.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:52
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They're supposed to hunt subs, you don't need much other than depth charges.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:52
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Comrade Gorbash posted:I know that's not why they picked the names, but there's something delightfully disrespectful towards the opposition about choosing cute-sy names for your warships. I also like what someone called the Imperial line of ship names: Inflexible, Warspite and so on. There's something brazen about it.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:54
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Nebakenezzer posted:I'm amazed the Flower Class started in 1939 - somebody had some foresight. They'd done it before.
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Nov 1, 2017 17:55
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The HMS Feck Off, Wanker
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Nov 1, 2017 17:56
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zoux posted:The HMS Feck Off, Wanker HMS Do You Think You're Hard Then
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Nov 1, 2017 18:02
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HMS u wot m8
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Nov 1, 2017 18:15
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HMS Tea-Time Trouble
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Nov 1, 2017 18:19
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feedmegin posted:Which is an interesting turn of events given the Boston Tea Party was started by (rich) smugglers pissed off that Britain was trying to send the colonies cheap tea and undercut them. Hoist on their own petard a little bit, there. That's a bit of an oversimplification. Tea smuggling was a thing primarily because having to route all imports through Britain greatly increased the cost of transport. Nonetheless, tea importation was still a profitable business for legitimate shippers and merchants. The fairly substantial taxes on tea in 1767 increased the profit of smugglers (because the legitimate price of tea went up, so the smuggled tea was relatively cheaper), but didn't hurt the tea merchants too badly. In 1770, all of the 1767 taxes except those on tea were repealed due to protest, with tea being left alone as a symbol of the right to tax. The main trouble came in 1773, when the tea tax was already six years old. The Tea Act, passed in that year, granted the East India Company an exclusive license to ship tea directly to the colonies and effectively tax-exempt status for the tea trade. This was not intended as a punitive measure, or an effort to undercut smuggling - it was for the sole purpose of baling out the financially-struggling EIC. This did have the result of lowering the price of legal tea in the colonies to something below what the smugglers charged, but smugglers were far from the only ones upset about the incident. The main outrage came from legitimate merchants that were furious at being cut out of this profitable market, and fears that other imports would be given the same treatment (which would have disastrous effects on the colonial economy), with a fairly large minority that suspected that the whole thing was a ploy to make people happy about the tea tax, starving the "Representation or Independence" movement of support. At almost all ports, colonists either refused to unload the tea at all, or left it heaped on the dock to rot. The deliberate destruction of tea in Boston Harbor was an exclamation point to the whole thing, but smugglers alone would not have been able to cause that widespread a rejection of the tea.
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Nov 1, 2017 18:19
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Jobbo_Fett posted:HMS Tea-Time Trouble
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Nov 1, 2017 18:29
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MikeCrotch posted:If you're talking WWII era, tanks had both electrical starters and compressed air starters (in the event it was too cold to use the batteries). No cartridge starters? I figured they'd be on the forefront of tractor-starting technology: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJpZfp0Ss2U
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Nov 1, 2017 18:49
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