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Waddle Bourgeoidee posted:It's pretty off-putting how you're hesitant to defend a legal proceeding that symbolizes the paradigm shift from all-out endorsement of Nazi ideals in Germany to jailing people for displaying swastikas in public.
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May 14, 2024 18:51
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Lazy_Liberal posted:i know we're having fun here but just wanna gently pull up from ascribing shared values to millions of people living within a certain place. feels like it reifies the concept of viewing people according to their birthplace/state which we are trying to avoid imo. i know israelis fighting like hell against their government and conservative neighbors. Yeah I can recognise I live in a settler colonial state (America) and not have my feelings hurt if somebody points that out. Sorry about your friends but it's not antisemitism or whatever youre trying to alude to point out that the entire Israeli government and society is wholy captured by the settlement movement. That's just like the history of the state, since like the 90's even being incredibly charitable to the history before that.
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May 14, 2024 19:04
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Halloween Jack posted:An outrageous degree of impunity was granted to German officials and officers, and then the US basically put Franz Halder in charge of writing the military history of the war. I can't help but think that the entire world would be in a much better position with regard to far-right propaganda eroding societies and corrupting institutions if a Nazi general hadn't been given a well-funded, high-status outlet to exonerate Germany and the many, many former Nazis in the West German government and the governments of other countries. There's an argument to be made that the Nuremburg Trials, such as they were, provided cover for the impunity that came with the Cold War. Hmm but it's the former Soviet occupation zone that has the neo-nazi problem. Because the Soviet approach to denazification was to say 'that was other people, you are now good socialist I think there's a good argument that attempting to separate out the Nazis (the mid ranking guys who weren't directly complicit in crimes I mean) from general German society was the wrong approach in the first place because that let everyone who went along with them off the hook. And the approach that was taken has been enormously successful - Prussian militarism is dead and there's a broad consensus in German society that they have a special obligation not to ever engage in conflict.
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May 14, 2024 19:06
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Alchenar posted:Hmm but it's the former Soviet occupation zone that has the neo-nazi problem. Because the Soviet approach to denazification was to say 'that was other people, you are now good socialist quote:I think there's a good argument that attempting to separate out the Nazis (the mid ranking guys who weren't directly complicit in crimes I mean) from general German society was the wrong approach in the first place because that let everyone who went along with them off the hook. And the approach that was taken has been enormously successful - Prussian militarism is dead and there's a broad consensus in German society that they have a special obligation not to ever engage in conflict. I don't wish to drag this out, since relitigating the Cold War is not especially germane. What's more relevant is that "procedural" de-Nazification, coupled with unstinting support of Israel, is and has been very economically convenient for Germany, what with the trillions of dollars of stolen wealth that they don't have to pay back to anyone. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:26 on May 14, 2024 |
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May 14, 2024 19:14
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Alchenar posted:Hmm but it's the former Soviet occupation zone that has the neo-nazi problem. Because the Soviet approach to denazification was to say 'that was other people, you are now good socialist Wait, is your take that neo-nazis are only a problem east of Berlin?
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May 14, 2024 19:23
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Alchenar posted:Hmm but it's the former Soviet occupation zone that has the neo-nazi problem. Because the Soviet approach to denazification was to say 'that was other people, you are now good socialist I think this is outside the scope of this thread, but the idea that it was the Soviets that had the nazi problem and not the West, which essentially integrated entire branches of the nazi state into its postwar apparatus and maintained those neonazi organizations you're talking about anticommunist forces is completely ahistorical. America has had presidents who owe their family's fortune to collaboration with nazi industrialists. Again it's too much to get into here, I think, but some dipshits with sonnenrad tattoos in eastern Europe (who are themselves a legacy of cold war western machinations!) are small potatoes compared to the integration of the nazis into western wealth and power structures. The Soviets' denazification, by any metric, was far superior to anything the west attempted.
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May 14, 2024 19:31
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National Parks posted:Wait, is your take that neo-nazis are only a problem east of Berlin? I have bad news about where AfD is strongest. And possibly also where the border between East and West Germany was, apparently.
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May 14, 2024 19:50
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soviet elsa posted:I have bad news about where AfD is strongest. And possibly also where the border between East and West Germany was, apparently. Yeah this is what I'm talking about because if you are trying to say there's a line between what everyone did in Germany in 1945-50 and political sentiment today, one approach was conspicuously very much less successful than the other. e: or to put it slightly finer: yes the Soviets went much further than the Allies to remove individuals who had been Nazis from the state. They totally failed in the project to reshape German society. The Allies went in the other direction and were willing to let individuals off the hook in furtherance of building a strong liberal democracy that would instil liberal values in it's citizens, which history shows they were extremely successful in. I know this is off-topic so I'll happily stop here, but the map isn't even a little ambiguous about the geographic issues with German politics: 
Alchenar fucked around with this message at 20:02 on May 14, 2024 |
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May 14, 2024 19:56
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Fortunately, this aside raised very germane points about the value of a "strong liberal democracy" whose "liberal values" demand that people who protest a genocide be officially proscribed. (And to be clear, I mean Germany specifically.)
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May 14, 2024 20:13
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Treating the resurgence of the far-right in the former east Germany as having continuity with nazi Germany seems poorly conceived to me. It is broadly a poorer part of Germany, in no small part because of how reunification happened, and as such naturally a hotbed for anti-establishment sentiments following the protracted economic and other crises that have been ongoing since 2008. You can add in a weaker traditional voter base for the west German parties and a poor performance for the left when it comes to capitalising on said crises as causes. The reason voters today vote the way they do has a lot more to do with the politics of the last 20-40 years than with the exact policies of social denazification that took place in the 50s or whatever.
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May 14, 2024 20:34
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raminasi posted:And some of those conscripts come back from service committed to ending the occupation. I don't understand the point of lumping them in with pro-occupation Israelis because they're all Israeli anyway - especially because those soldiers themselves see a discrepancy between the reality of the occupation and Israeli public discourse about it: Israeli racism/nationalism/colonialism is indeed bad and reinforced by the government from cradle to grave with education and propaganda. However there are IOF vets that have joined peace movements and the Israeli government goes hard on them. A friend of mine has a relative that fought in Gaza in 2014 and joined a veterans for peace type org, even wrote an opinion piece in the Guardian against the war last year. His punishment for being an anti war activist for years has been being repeatedly jailed and told that if he is within 150 meters of ANY protest he will be apalled with some sort of seditious felony and thrown in jail again.
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May 14, 2024 21:17
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liberal democracies truly take after one another (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 14, 2024 21:19
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Did the Israelis hate the Palestinians back in 48 or did something fundamentally change after 67?
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May 14, 2024 21:29
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Lol at trying to say AfDs popularity in the east is due to a hold over of communist mentality or something. It's very horseshoe theory which I guess is why it's so popular with liberal commentators. The party is most popular with under 30s, people who never lived through communism. But they were left behind by the liberal West who stripped the industry of the East and gave them nothing.
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May 14, 2024 21:42
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Alchenar posted:Yeah this is what I'm talking about because if you are trying to say there's a line between what everyone did in Germany in 1945-50 and political sentiment today, one approach was conspicuously very much less successful than the other. Ok, now do France and Italy, or hell, even the UK
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May 14, 2024 23:07
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Did the Israelis hate the Palestinians back in 48 or did something fundamentally change after 67? Racism always flows from political convenience.
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May 15, 2024 00:03
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Oh yeah so the IDF killed a UN Worker in a UN marked van https://www.npr.org/2024/05/14/1251272912/gaza-united-nations-un-aid-worker-killed https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/13/un-worker-killed-rafah-israel-gaza/ Assuming that this isn't getting as much condemnation because the guy killed wasn't white.
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May 15, 2024 05:48
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National Parks posted:Yeah I can recognise I live in a settler colonial state (America) and not have my feelings hurt if somebody points that out. It feels like you're taking the least charitable interpretation possible of what I'm suggesting, and also in an unnecessarily rude way? The entire Israeli government and society is not pro-settler. I was not implying anything was specifically anti-Jew but it is an oppressive concept to reduce people to their nationstates. We can have a conversation about violence and genocide without oversimplifying identities.
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May 15, 2024 06:08
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precious
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quote:National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir also spoke at the march, and said that what the protesters are calling for is the "true solution." Wasn't the "final solution" the nazi thing? Satire is dead indeed
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May 15, 2024 06:43
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Israel has forced Gazans into a giant ghetto, experienced a ghetto uprising, and is now actively working to liquidate that ghetto, by killing and/or forcing them into concentration camps. They’re just trolling when they clutch their pearls about comparisons to the Nazis now.
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May 15, 2024 10:41
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Did the Israelis hate the Palestinians back in 48 or did something fundamentally change after 67? Always been. quote:The turn of the 20th century saw many Jews escape the pogroms and poverty of Europe for America. A small minority, though, headed to Ottoman Palestine, an Arab area with a small indigenous Jewish community. Arriving with a hazy plan of establishing a national home, the more ideologically motivated immigrants spoke excitedly of a two-fold redemption: one of the land and one of their people. Eretz Israel, they argued, had gone to seed without Jews and under Muslim rule, and should be transformed into a modern European country – Herzl’s ‘outpost of civilisation’. Similarly, they claimed that diaspora Jews had lost a certain national vitality. Building Israel from the ground up would create a ‘New Jew’; a bold, muscular pioneer who shunned Viennese coffee houses in favour of hard toil in the Holy Land. In the words of one popular Zionist song: ‘We came to this land to build it and to be rebuilt in it.’ https://www.historytoday.com/archive/feature/herzls-troubled-dream-origins-zionism Also look up the uh "spicy" quotes Herzl and other founders of Zionism had re Palestinians. The contemptuous attitude the first settlers had towards Palestinians did have some funny results. Disregarding the latter's advice on what amd how to plant crops led to numerous failures that had settlers running back to Europe. I'll see if I can find it again.
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May 15, 2024 12:30
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Lazy_Liberal posted:It feels like you're taking the least charitable interpretation possible of what I'm suggesting, and also in an unnecessarily rude way? Okay, I'm happy to revise my statements to this: the majority of the Israeli government and public support the settlement movement, support for the settlement movement is growing despite international condemnation, and there are no relevant political or social forces in the country that can put a stop to it. I believe this is pretty damning of Israeli society as a whole. National Parks fucked around with this message at 13:52 on May 15, 2024 |
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May 15, 2024 13:49
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National Parks posted:Okay, I'm happy to revise my statements to this: the majority of the Israeli government and public support the settlement movement, support for the settlement movement is growing despite international condemnation, and there are no relevant political or social forces in the country that can put a stop to it. Oh yeah I can co-sign this, thanks.
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May 15, 2024 17:59
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Over 80 percent of Israelis support the mass death being visited upon the people of Gaza - the population is overwhelmingly composed of racist reactionaries. That isn't saying that zero Israelis support peace or want to end the brutalization of the Palestinians but it's a small minority at this point.
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May 15, 2024 18:11
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Groovelord Neato posted:Over 80 percent of Israelis support the mass death being visited upon the people of Gaza - the population is overwhelmingly composed of racist reactionaries. That isn't saying that zero Israelis support peace or want to end the brutalization of the Palestinians but it's a small minority at this point. And, importantly, completely powerless in a political sense. That's why a lot of the apologia centered around Netanyahu being especially or uniquely bad fall flat: it's Netanyahus all the way down. There is no political horizon in israel for the cessation of the genocide, let alone the dismantling of the apartheid state or rejection of its entrenched ethnic supremacy.
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May 15, 2024 18:32
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Has anyone else found that this war makes them actually less supportive of a one-state solution? On October 6 and shortly afterward I was of the position that there is a one-state reality and justice means converting that state into a normal liberal democracy, integrating Gazans and West Bank residents and Palestinian refugees in the diaspora as citizens, reparations, etc. But at this point it seems loving insane that you could have one state encompassing both Tel Aviv and Gaza. This is an exponentially more dramatically abominable slaughter than ever took place in Ireland or South Africa, and as we've discussed above, the vast majority of Israeli citizens support it with enthusiasm. If I were a resident of Gaza who's spent the last half-year starving in a manmade hell, mourning my whole world, there is no universe where I would want to share a state with the people who did that to me. I hate and distrust them, they hate and distrust me, we cannot share a police force or military. So unless you're of the delusion that some sort of reverse-Nakba-times-ten will remove the citizens of Israel (or the Jewish ones) from Palestine, there will be a need for at least two states: one for Tel Aviv and one for Gaza (and maybe one for the West Bank too). And then the "international community", for all the good it's done so far, will have to ensure that Palestinian citizens of Israel can live decently (as can, if any, Israeli/Jewish citizens of the Palestinian state). I think this war, which itself was caused by the American attempt to normalize Israeli foreign relations without any action on Palestine, has made it so the immediate future of the region will have to look more like India/Pakistan than Ireland or South Africa. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:40 on May 15, 2024 |
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May 15, 2024 18:32
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The one-state solution has always been a fringe view that's struggled to grapple with the reality that nobody actually in the region wants it.
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May 15, 2024 18:42
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Alchenar posted:The one-state solution has always been a fringe view that's struggled to grapple with the reality that nobody actually in the region wants it. As opposed to the two state solution?
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May 15, 2024 18:49
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Alchenar posted:The one-state solution has always been a fringe view that's struggled to grapple with the reality that nobody actually in the region wants it. Yeah and I respectfully disagreed, both for generally idealistic reasons and practical ones (how do you unite the West Bank and Gaza into one state with Israel slicing them apart?) and now I have to admit that even if they weren't right before, they certainly are now.
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May 15, 2024 18:50
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Has anyone else found that this war makes them actually less supportive of a one-state solution? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 15, 2024 18:51
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Either solution is about as realistic as the other at this point. There are around 750,000 Israeli settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank that would have to be expelled to have a viable two-state solution. Israel has never made an offer that wasn't complete dogshit either.
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May 15, 2024 18:52
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While I think the two state solution would be better in the long term, I just don't see how it'd be practical. You'd need to kick out all the settlers from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and to give an somehow maintain a part of Israel that will connect Gaza to the West Bank. I think that is a reasonable practical solution in theory, but there is no way modern Israel would agree to something like that and would fight till the last man to stop it. Perhaps there was a time for it but it has passed. A one state solution is also, regrettably, awful, but it's the only one that's semi practical. I don't know how you'd pull it off without a massive amount of violence, but you already have a massive amount of violence and at least in this solution the Palestinians might be free.
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May 15, 2024 19:00
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Jai Guru Dave posted:On the contrary, a one-state solution is the only alternative. The Zionist experiment has failed. I disagree - Zionism has been an enormous success, even more than the colonization of America or Australia. There is now a country where being Jewish is normal, and it's in the exact land of Jewish ethnogenesis. Jews living in this country do not experience the vulnerability to violence, economic marginalization, or cultural humiliation that were normal in antisemitic Europe and, to a much lesser extent, Muslim states. These were the goals of Zionism. It's come at a horrifying cost to Palestinian safety and dignity, and it's made Jewish culture much more nationalistic and militant, but many Zionists anticipated or even welcomed these developments before and during the establishment of Israel. And the state is completely entrenched - its "worst case scenario" is that it loses sovereignty over some parts of Palestine whole keeping the vast majority of it, or that its regime of Jewish supremacy is transitioned from de-jure to de-facto (which would actually better align it with the vision of some Zionist writers including Herzl). Zionism succeeded. quote:If Jewish residents of the Levant will not accept democracy, they will have a theocratic republic or a corrupt monarchy. Those are the choices now. Obviously the State of Israel has to be made into a normal liberal democracy. The question is whether that liberal democracy should have sovereignty over Gaza and the West Bank and I think the obvious answer at this point is "gently caress no." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:11 on May 15, 2024 |
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May 15, 2024 19:00
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How would a non-contiguous state even work, if you got rid of the settlers, and agreed to let palestinians in gaza drill for water, and didn't limit their fishing off the coast in gaza, and agreed to let them have a military (you kinda need that to have a state). You need a passport to travel between Gaza City (such as it is) and East Jerusalem? A one state solution is the only longterm solution, of course Israel has a very different idea of what that looks like. It's categorically untrue to say no Palestinians want a one state either. Take it from the founder of Hamas. http://www.miftah.org/display.cfm?DocId=3395&CategoryId=5 quote:“One Palestinian state would be ideal, shared by all Palestinians – Jews, Muslims and Christians. But as a truce, until that happens, we recognize the reality of Israel, but we reserve our right and cannot and will not recognize Israel’s moral legitimacy.” Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 19:06 on May 15, 2024 |
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May 15, 2024 19:02
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Groovelord Neato posted:There are around 750,000 Israeli settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank that would have to be expelled
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May 15, 2024 19:05
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Jai Guru Dave posted:Every one that is there legally can stay, how about that They can't no they live in illegal colonies. They also wouldn't want to live in Palestine so Israel would have to absorb them either way. Civilized Fishbot posted:I disagree - Zionism has been an enormous success, even more than the colonization of America or Australia. There is now a country where being Jewish is normal, and it's in the exact land of Jewish ethnogenesis. Jews living in this country do not experience the vulnerability to violence, economic marginalization, or cultural humiliation that were normal in antisemitic Europe and, to a much lesser extent, Muslim states. These were the goals of Zionism. Half of the world's Jewish population (or possibly more than half) live in another country where almost all of those things are all much truer. America was a more successful place for Jews to live than Israel will ever be. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 19:15 on May 15, 2024 |
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May 15, 2024 19:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Jews living in this country do not experience the vulnerability to violence America and Australia, whatever their other flaws, are unlikely to start a war against their own prisons, and fail to win within seven months - let alone lose. Israel now exists on the sufferance of American Christians.
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May 15, 2024 19:16
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Would anybody be happy if Gaza was given back to Egypt? Probably not, but I dunnoCivilized Fishbot posted:humiliation that were normal in antisemitic Europe and, to a much lesser extent, Muslim states. These were the goals of Zionism. Actually, can someone go into jewish-muslim relations before Israel was established? This isnt the first time I've seen someone post that the muslim states (Ottoman Empire?) were much more relaxed than Europe which makes Shageletic posted:Always been. even more wild, since the Israelis kinda designated Palestinians as enemies for no good reason Civilized Fishbot posted:Has anyone else found that this war makes them actually less supportive of a one-state solution? I swear I saw a poll somewhere earlier in this thread that indicated the favored solution of both Palestine and Israel was a one state solution that ddin include any members of the other group not great Nissin Cup Nudist fucked around with this message at 19:22 on May 15, 2024 |
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May 15, 2024 19:19
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Nail Rat posted:How would a non-contiguous state even work, if you got rid of the settlers, and agreed to let palestinians in gaza drill for water, and didn't limit their fishing off the coast in gaza, and agreed to let them have a military (you kinda need that to have a state). You need a passport to travel between Gaza City (such as it is) and East Jerusalem? They could call those Hamas guys to build a tunnel between Gaza and East Jerusalem, I heard they are good at those things
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May 15, 2024 19:19
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If you were able to amass the power and international support for a two state solution, you'd have the power to -- and would be much better off -- just dissolving israel. Maintaining the two states would be much more difficult and guaranteed to fail in the long term, because the zionist project will not accept being denied the lebensraum they think they're entitled to. Dissolving the apartheid ethnostate and establishing a secular pluralistic Palestine will be an incredibly messy and violent process but it is also the only one that stands a chance of working and must be done sooner or later. zionism, like nazism, cannot be reformed, and has to be dealt with. The longer it takes for the world to do something about, the more painful it is ultimately going to be.
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May 15, 2024 19:20
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