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Didn't Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, and Web all get moved to the conjuration school at some point? I don't think of them as evocation spells. Deadly stink cloud magic is the best.
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Jun 27, 2022 01:12
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Chromatic Orb, magic missile, agannazars scorcher, stinking cloud and web, fireball, melfs minute meteors... Other than some defensive abjuration spells and enchantment crowd controls, these are some of the primary mage spells imo.
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Jun 27, 2022 01:18
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rope kid posted:I stretched their power a bit in IWD1 as well. I at least wanted to make their bard songs valuable. you were doing god's work but bards sucked so bad
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Jun 27, 2022 01:23
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BG1 bards get longbows, 2-handed swords, wands, lore(actually useful in BG1), on demand resist fear, mirror image, level 10 caster level flame arrows and skull traps etc etc they're really good.
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Jun 27, 2022 01:27
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bike tory posted:Chromatic Orb, magic missile, agannazars scorcher, stinking cloud and web, fireball, melfs minute meteors... Other than some defensive abjuration spells and enchantment crowd controls, these are some of the primary mage spells imo. You use CO in BG1? Fireball and scorcher are best left to wands of fire. Never used stinking cloud. Web is good but Xan can use horror so it's kind of a wash IMO. At least horror won't accidentally affect on a party member. So, basically, magic missile.
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Jun 27, 2022 01:55
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Web is way better than horror. It's borderline broken in BG1, every attack hits a webbed target, and the webbed target can't do anything, they just stand there doing nothing. Chromatic Orb is also good, but not as good as MM for a first level slot. Stinking Cloud is also amazing, sleeping targets can be damaged without them waking up. Losing evocation does hurt. Wands help solve most of it though.
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Jun 27, 2022 02:32
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Sleeping (as in level 1 spell) targets don't wake up when attacked either. Stinking cloud is just an opportunity to accidentally affect your own people for the same effect, the enemy can roll to wake up every round, and it's also level 2. It's sleep, except worse. I've use web, I know it's good, but it's situational and it can gently caress you over. I've lost a couple of ironmans to pathfinding deciding the best thing to do was walk directly into an active web. I'm conceding that level 2 for a BG1 enchanter isn't great, but I found that horror fills the gap just fine. Party friendly, immediately ends fights. If not, cast again, if you have nothing better going on. What I really like of enchantments + horror is they all only affect red circles. Use them anywhere you want, no one will give a poo poo.
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Jun 27, 2022 02:47
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Chromatic Orb also turns enemies to stone on a failed save between levels 10 and 11, destroying any items. Whoops, sorry Carsomyr! I guess I shouldn't have had Aerie fire off that Greater Malasion + Doom + Chromatic orb combination at Firekragg.
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Jun 27, 2022 02:47
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Dillbag posted:Chromatic Orb also turns enemies to stone on a failed save between levels 10 and 11, destroying any items. In the other hand, it's the perfect way to not have to do quests for Edwin in the Thieves' Guild. The plot critical key survives stoning, and you get to the dirt on Mae'var without a lot of bullshit.
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Jun 27, 2022 02:51
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rope kid posted:They were also pretty bad, mechanically, for 3 editions (IMO). I dunno how faithfully Bards are done in BG compared to actual 2e D&D but I feel like they're pretty strong. Being able to use wands and the myriad of defensive buffs (all of which last for forever and scale well because of fast Bard spell progression) makes them imo the best or close to the best tanks in the game. Their offense isn't the greatest but they're incredible tanks. The thing is, most people won't look at a Bard at first glance and think that they're tanks. If you just look at them as like a support caster or guy who just sits there in the backline and sings all the time I feel like you're wasting a lot of their potential. Imo the class that really needs attention in BG is the monk. They are by far the weakest class in the game. Playable but not very good. Suspicious posted:Sleeping (as in level 1 spell) targets don't wake up when attacked either. Stinking cloud is just an opportunity to accidentally affect your own people for the same effect, the enemy can roll to wake up every round, and it's also level 2. It's sleep, except worse. The other nice thing about enchantments is confusion/chaos are level 4 and 5, meaning they get through Minor Globe of Invuln which some enemies use in the base game and almost every decently level BG mage uses with SCS enabled. Ratios and Tendency posted:BG1 bards get longbows, 2-handed swords, wands, lore(actually useful in BG1), on demand resist fear, mirror image, level 10 caster level flame arrows and skull traps etc etc they're really good. Yes and then by BG2 they become incredible tanks thanks to powerful/long lasting mirror images, stoneskins, etc. Ginette Reno fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jun 27, 2022 |
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Jun 27, 2022 03:05
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Empty Sandwich posted:honestly my main problem is that he keeps shouting his own name Baldur's Gate Khalid pleased Jaheira despite his (morale) failures.
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Jun 27, 2022 03:06
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Servetus posted:In the other hand, it's the perfect way to not have to do quests for Edwin in the Thieves' Guild. The plot critical key survives stoning, and you get to the dirt on Mae'var without a lot of bullshit. Does killing Edwin hostile Mae'var's entire guild building?
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Jun 27, 2022 03:16
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I don't know. I played through BG2 and Throne of Bhaal with a bard once, and by the end he was drat near as useless as he was at the start. When you're getting that many attacks/round tossed at you by enemies that do not miss, buffs don't last too long, and it's not like you're going to do much damage in return. Maybe I suck at bards though? I sure as hell lack the capacity for pain that playing through the series as a monk would require.
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Jun 27, 2022 03:26
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rojay posted:I don't know. I played through BG2 and Throne of Bhaal with a bard once, and by the end he was drat near as useless as he was at the start. When you're getting that many attacks/round tossed at you by enemies that do not miss, buffs don't last too long, and it's not like you're going to do much damage in return. Maybe I suck at bards though? If enemies are close to breaking through mirror images/stoneskins you just cast protection from magic weapons and then throw up another stoneskin/mirror image. If you're a Blade you can hit defensive spin and be basically ac capped with mirror image/stoneskin up which will take some time even for TOB enemies to break through.
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Jun 27, 2022 03:43
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Does killing Edwin hostile Mae'var's entire guild building? I don't remember, but I don't think so. I was able to get out without fighting anyone, but I might have snuck someone to the chest then left by an unguarded exit. It was a long time ago.
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Jun 27, 2022 03:55
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TOB balance goes way out the window but use any item, spike traps and timestop traps are good enough almost on their own, plus having an imp haste buffbot for your warriors is crucial.
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Jun 27, 2022 04:10
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Ratios and Tendency posted:The moonblade lets Xan finish off enemies he's disabled with his spells. Sometimes this happens too 
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Jun 27, 2022 05:14
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bike tory posted:TOB balance goes way out the window but use any item, spike traps and timestop traps are good enough almost on their own, plus having an imp haste buffbot for your warriors is crucial. Using Vhailor's Helm with Enhanced Bard Song is pretty sick too. Just make a clone of yourself that sings while your Bard still does Bard things. I was reading about the Rogue Rebalancing mod and I think I may try that out soon to see how it is. It does some interesting things with Bards and Thieves. Some of it are nerfs and some are buffs but it looks interesting.
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Jun 27, 2022 05:32
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I'm very fond of Jan in BG2, and illusionists in general are a good speciality wizard not to mention the only multiclassable spec wizard, but losing out on those few necromancy spells hurts. There aren't a lot quantity-wise, but skull trap, animate dead, wilting etc are a big loss.rocketrobot posted:Are rangers also going to take the record for Revised Editions within editions? A dubious honour if ever there was
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Jun 27, 2022 06:07
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Ginette Reno posted:Imo the class that really needs attention in BG is the monk. They are by far the weakest class in the game. Playable but not very good. When I play a monk it's only as a labour of love to the art of punching and kicking people to death. The fact that they're bad makes me sad. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Beamdog remove a handful of helmet items that monks could wear that offered immunity to critical hits, making them even squishier, or just remove monks ability to wear them? Also didn't they remove their ability to cast spells from divine scrolls, something I distinctly remember doing in og BG2/ToB but unable to do so in EE?
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Jun 27, 2022 07:25
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DeadButDelicious posted:When I play a monk it's only as a labour of love to the art of punching and kicking people to death. The fact that they're bad makes me sad. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Beamdog remove a handful of helmet items that monks could wear that offered immunity to critical hits, making them even squishier, or just remove monks ability to wear them? Also didn't they remove their ability to cast spells from divine scrolls, something I distinctly remember doing in og BG2/ToB but unable to do so in EE? Monks can't wear ioun stones or the amulet of power in the EE edition.
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Jun 27, 2022 07:52
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Monks can still use an amulet of shielding, but yeah. Slim pickings.
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Jun 27, 2022 13:20
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Decrepus posted:Baldur's Gate Khalid pleased Jaheira despite his (morale) failures. it's true. a major differenc between them is that Khalid goes down constantly
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Jun 27, 2022 14:39
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DeadButDelicious posted:When I play a monk it's only as a labour of love to the art of punching and kicking people to death. The fact that they're bad makes me sad. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Beamdog remove a handful of helmet items that monks could wear that offered immunity to critical hits, making them even squishier, or just remove monks ability to wear them? Also didn't they remove their ability to cast spells from divine scrolls, something I distinctly remember doing in og BG2/ToB but unable to do so in EE? There were some helms you could use to get crit immunity in the base game as Monks but they weren't intended that way so Beamdog removed it. Monks need something more at high levels. Crit immunity or damage reduction or something. The magic resistance is nice but it's not magic that crushes you in TOB as a meleer so much as all the nasty melee enemies like Fire Giants etc. And Monks of course can't be improved hasted so while their d20 fists are great they still probably fall behind in damage compared to an improved hasted fighter using a TOB weapon and crit strike at 10 attacks/round. Monks have to use Greater Whirlwind which means their attacks have a chance to miss versus Fighters who would be auto hitting with crit strike. But yeah they are still fun to play just because the concept is cool but I wish there was more to them.
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Jun 27, 2022 14:58
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Empty Sandwich posted:it's true. a major differenc between them is that Khalid goes down constantly I can see why Jaheira was upset to lose him.
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Jun 27, 2022 14:59
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I'm playing Pillars of Eternity again, maybe I will finally muster the wherewithal to try and kill the dragon superbosses.
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Jun 27, 2022 15:36
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Is there a fan improvement patch for monks? I've never really played one, but they clearly need a lot of help and there are improvement rework patches for the infamously weak shapeshifter druid, etc.
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Jun 27, 2022 17:08
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Blade Bards are great. Any time I remotely consider playing a Fighter/Mage I just shrug and play a Blade and get roughly the same experience with less effort. Arguably better for the early and midgame where your unique class and kit features matter the most anyway. Can’t really recommend any other kind of Bard but hey!
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Jun 27, 2022 17:09
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JustJeff88 posted:Is there a fan improvement patch for monks? I've never really played one, but they clearly need a lot of help and there are improvement rework patches for the infamously weak shapeshifter druid, etc. I've not tried either but I doubt it can get any worse!
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Jun 27, 2022 17:14
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Rythian posted:https://github.com/aquadrizzt/MonasticOrders and https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/kits/swordandfist/ I've played a bit with Sword and Fist before (mostly their multiclass kits rather than their big class edits or their feat system and whatnot) but it's definitely a neat, ambitious mod. I need to explore some of the class/item/spell overhaul mods a bit more. Song and Silence has some neat bard and thief kits.
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Jun 27, 2022 17:35
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docbeard posted:I've played a bit with Sword and Fist before (mostly their multiclass kits rather than their big class edits or their feat system and whatnot) but it's definitely a neat, ambitious mod. I'm gonna try Rogue Rebalancing soon I think. It does some interesting stuff with Rogues and Bards. Most of the buffs seem pretty reasonable and they balance it out with some nerfs as well.
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Jun 27, 2022 17:37
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Captain Oblivious posted:Blade Bards are great. Any time I remotely consider playing a Fighter/Mage I just shrug and play a Blade and get roughly the same experience with less effort. Arguably better for the early and midgame where your unique class and kit features matter the most anyway. Skald loses the unique effect of its bard song the moment you take enhanced bard song which isn't enormously better than their lv20 bard song in the first place (-4 bonus to THAC0, +4 bonus to damage rolls, -4 bonus to AC, immunity to fear, stun, and confusion VS -4 bonus to THAC0, +4 bonus to damage rolls, -4 AC/-10 for Bard, +5% MR/10% for Bard, immunity to fear, stun, confusion, and normal weapons). Jester flat-out sucks simply because enemies get a bonus to save versus the effects of their bard song. I really don't see a reason not to go blade every single time if you pick bard.
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Jun 27, 2022 18:30
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I mean, Improved Bard Song isn’t until level 24, so that’s still an enormous amount of time to benefit from the Skald’s song… if you intend to actually use it. Personally I think spending 100% of a character’s actions maintaining a single buff which can be matched by a couple low level cleric pre-buffs is a real big waste of a character slot, and yeah Blade is the way to bard for sure.
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Jun 27, 2022 18:52
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Ginette Reno posted:I'm gonna try Rogue Rebalancing soon I think. It does some interesting stuff with Rogues and Bards. Most of the buffs seem pretty reasonable and they balance it out with some nerfs as well. Rogue rebalancing is great and blends perfectly into the game. I especially liked the tweak to swashbuckler and the new bard HLAs. Less a fan of the changes to bounty hunter traps but to be fair some of them were totally OP.
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Jun 27, 2022 19:10
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Fruits of the sea posted:Less a fan of the changes to bounty hunter traps but to be fair some of them were totally OP. They sure were, but it was somewhat excuseable because rogues, especially single-class ones, were rubbish. If Rogue Rebalancing did such a good job, and it seems to be the case, then something had to be sacrificed. Mzbundifund posted:I mean, Improved Bard Song isn’t until level 24, so that’s still an enormous amount of time to benefit from the Skald’s song… if you intend to actually use it. Personally I think spending 100% of a character’s actions maintaining a single buff which can be matched by a couple low level cleric pre-buffs is a real big waste of a character slot, and yeah Blade is the way to bard for sure. I agree - it's an action economy issue. They should have had it that bards can sing and still attack, just not cast spells, or something like that.
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Jun 27, 2022 20:58
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Mzbundifund posted:Personally I think spending 100% of a character’s actions maintaining a single buff which can be matched by a couple low level cleric pre-buffs is a real big waste of a character slot, and yeah Blade is the way to bard for sure. Yeah it's this. You can still weave wands or quick spells in while keeping the song up because it works by applying a six second buff every six seconds, but that's a huge pain in the rear end and not really worth it for the buff imo. Jester used to be fun in a gimmicky way because you could sing from invisibility which meant you could sneak your jester into a group of enemies and watch them go crazy and kill each other. One of the EE patches made their song break invis though, so RIP. I think the EEs also took away stacking bard song, which was fun back when you could use mislead and vhailors helm to get 3x the buff. THAT was worth it with the improved song at +12 hit, +12 damage, -12AC and 15% MR. The EEs did properly include the luck bonus with the base bard song, which is worth it in certain circumstances like against Davaeorn where the whole party is likely to eat some fireballs. Luck decreases incoming damage rolls, so for spells that roll multiple dice that's decent damage reduction especially across the whole party. voiceless anal fricative fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jun 27, 2022 |
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Jun 27, 2022 21:14
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You can use Vhailor's Helm to make your Bard sing so I suppose you could do the same thing with a Skald relatively early. Clone yourself, let the clone sing, and then have your Skald do whatever you want. That's only 1/day though.
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Jun 27, 2022 21:37
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Ginette Reno posted:You can use Vhailor's Helm to make your Bard sing so I suppose you could do the same thing with a Skald relatively early. Clone yourself, let the clone sing, and then have your Skald do whatever you want. That's only 1/day though. But why would you use Vhailor's helm on a bard?
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Jun 28, 2022 00:31
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Wasn't there an item that granted lingering song in IWD? I seem to recall that being a thing when last I played with a bard.
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Jun 28, 2022 01:17
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rojay posted:But why would you use Vhailor's helm on a bard? Because it lets you make a simulacrum of your bard so it can sing while the real bard fights.
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Jun 28, 2022 01:34
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