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So all the various different locals in Palestine generally coexisted in peace until the Europeans came and ruined everything? Figures
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May 16, 2024 15:38
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Neurolimal posted:the ADL under Greenblatt has thrown away any guise of being an anti-discrimination organization, The ADL spied on anti-apartheid activists and Arab Americans in the 80s, contracting with CIA operatives responsible for mass atrocities in Latin America.
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May 16, 2024 16:02
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Civilized Fishbot posted:What part of it is wrong? That the overarching goal of Zionism was to resolve the Jewish question by producing a Jewish nation-state with sovereign territory, or that it successfully created a Jewish nation-state with sovereign territory? It's your framing I have issue with. Specifically this, before you shifted your argument to a kinda confusing argument separating anti-semitism from racism quote:I disagree - Zionism has been an enormous success, even more than the colonization of America or Australia. There is now a country where being Jewish is normal, and it's in the exact land of Jewish ethnogenesis. Jews living in this country do not experience the vulnerability to violence, economic marginalization, or cultural humiliation that were normal in antisemitic Europe and, to a much lesser extent, Muslim states. These were the goals of Zionism. Where are your sources backing Jewish people being vulnerable to "violence, economic marginalization, or cultural humiliation" in pre-zionist Palestine that would rise to the level of making it a general statement, couched or no? In a larger sense, that argument is the exact same used Herzl, who if you have read his works like The Jewish State (which is a pretty short and snappy pamphlet), who also stated that jewish people could only live in safety in what he named Palestine (after suggesting Argentina among other candidates). But the interesting thing about that paper is that he doesn't mention Arabs once. Not once, while laying the structures, the legal laws, and even the layout of individual homes, of the eventual new Jewish state. He also talked about how it would be the only place for Jewish people to be normal and not suffer violence or the like. But it is predicated in the vanishment of an entire people, immense suffering and oppression, that in turn twists what is defined as normal life, as if anything could be considered a normal and safe life when it is built on a teetering plane of violence on an out group, and like any totalitarian regime, corrupts the oppressor in numerous and purposedly ignored ways.
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May 16, 2024 16:03
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Pier is pushed ashore. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjk4kr47mlvo Looks like it happened overnight when the weather finally broke https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/gaza-strip-pier-project-is-completed-u-s-military-says
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May 16, 2024 16:15
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:So all the various different locals in Palestine generally coexisted in peace until the Europeans came and ruined everything? Lets not overstate the situation. It was certainly safer to be a Jew in Ottoman or Egyptian Palestine during the early modern period than it generally was in Europe, but they (and other minority groups) were still legally inferior, and subject to arbitrary persecutions that sometimes rose to the level of violent attacks. The Ottomans were still an empire with all that entails.
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May 16, 2024 16:24
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Shageletic posted:It's your framing I have issue with. Specifically this, before you shifted your argument to a kinda confusing argument separating anti-semitism from racism Zionism wasn't developed to resolve conditions in Palestine, it was designed to enable an escape from conditions in Europe (and to a much, much lesser extent, the rest of the Jewish diaspora). Although as Angry Salami says, the Ottoman Empire was a real empire that was not free of the politics of ethnic chauvinism or religious fundamentalism, including in Palestine. quote:In a larger sense, that argument is the exact same used Herzl, who if you have read his works like The Jewish State (which is a pretty short and snappy pamphlet), who also stated that jewish people could only live in safety in what he named Palestine (after suggesting Argentina among other candidates). Yeah I'm trying to describe why Israel is a success according to Herzl's vision of Zionism and I think you nail it - it created a place where being Jewish is normal, the way being French is normal in France, etc. Actually a very straightforward nationalist resolution to the Jewish question, remarkable only in the sense that it required a colossal settler-colonist operation coordinated across a decentralized diaspora. Its costs were creating a militant colonial regime that warped the lives of the settlers (this was in large part something that Zionists anticipated with excitement - the development of a new, muscular Jew) and enormous, horrible exile, suffering, massacres, humiliation, and genocide toward non-Jewish indigenous Palestinians, which like you say, the Zionists mostly didn't really worry about too much. That's why it's so obvious to me that the Zionist project succeeded - its founding goals were accomplished at costs acceptable to its leaders. The grotesque form and scale of these costs, and the fact that these goals could have been accomplished in other ways, is why anti-Zionism is morally and practically correct. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:16 on May 16, 2024 |
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May 16, 2024 16:43
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insane clown pussy posted:The ADL spied on anti-apartheid activists and Arab Americans in the 80s, contracting with CIA operatives responsible for mass atrocities in Latin America. I'm aware, but their public face in recent years was of an organization concerned with civil rights. That facade seems to be less of a concern since Oct 7. Civilized Fishbot posted:Its costs were creating a militant colonial regime that warped the lives of the settlers (this was in large part something that Zionists anticipated with excitement - the development of a new, muscular Jew) Eli Valley's written/drawn a lot about this, and it's both fascinating and bizarre; a lot of the Jewish diaspora culture (particularly in the US) tends to be introspective, at the forefront of civil rights movements, self-deprecating, traditional but progressive. Genuinely admirable, and it's grotesque to see how that's been mutated and poured into the fascist mold. https://twitter.com/elivalley/status/1181329380590718977  It's hard not to see a lot of Israel's traits as envy towards nations that got to "enjoy" the fruits of nationalism, and a repressed contempt for what Judaism has stood for. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 17:20 on May 16, 2024 |
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May 16, 2024 16:53
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Moroccan and Ethiopian Jews, and other Jews who can trace ancestry to Africa, do not experience antisemitism in Israel. They experience racism, but Zionism wasn't supposed to fix racism against people from Africa, or "hatred and discrimination" in all their forms. it was a movement developed by Ashkenazim to produce freedom from antisemitism. And this succeeded - Jews in Israel do not regularly experience antisemitic violence or abuse because they live in a country where being Jewish is normal, being non-Jewish is abnormal, and the state openly concerns itself with the welfare and rights of Jews specifically. You are being too pedantic in regards to describing racist discrimination. Antisemitism is racism, there is no special difference between Jewish discrimination and any other race. It was just more wide spread because every country in Europe was fanatically Christian and therefore hated the Jews for what they had done to Jesus in rejecting him. The modern state of Israel was created as a place were Jews wouldn't be persecuted for their race, and since persecution is still ongoing inside of Israel between Jews, it was a failure in that regard. I think that you would be better served not trying to make antisemitism some special kind of racism, and focus more on the systemic problems within Israeli society that has led to this point.
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May 16, 2024 17:25
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Hamelekim posted:You are being too pedantic in regards to describing racist discrimination. Antisemitism is racism, there is no special difference between Jewish discrimination and any other race. It was just more wide spread because every country in Europe was fanatically Christian and therefore hated the Jews for what they had done to Jesus in rejecting him. I think you're making two mistakes here: 1. I am describing why Israel is a success by the Zionist rubric, put differently, why Zionism succeeded. Zionists were not concerned about African or Middle-Eastern Jews being treated badly by other Jews over European ideals of racial supremacy. Many Zionists themselves had those prejudices! They were concerned specifically about Jews, really European and American Jews, being abused for being Jews, or being warped by lack of connection to a Jewish homeland. When you say "The modern state of Israel was created as a place were Jews wouldn't be persecuted for their race," as if a major goal of Zionism was to wipe out prejudice between Beta Israel and Ashkenazim, you are projecting your own (admirable, correct) ideals onto a movement to which you presumably don't even belong (which is to your credit). Zionism did not succeed in achieving your goals, or mine, it achieved the goals of Zionism. 2. You seem to think the tail is wagging the dog. Antisemitism does not emerge from the sheer rhetorical power of the idea that the Jews rejected or killed Jesus, it's an ideology that emerges from a material condition. Like other forms of racism or religious prejudice, it's a scavenger ideology, meaning it finds a rhetorical base in whatever's available: the anti-Jewish tradition in Christianity or Islam, anti-religioisity in general, scientific racism, anti-communism, even anti-capitalism or anti-Zionism. It's not born out of these ideas as much as it's equipped with these ideas by whatever sophist demagogue is trying to push anti-Jewish politics. Again this is just how racism works in general. Black people in America aren't hated because the Bible says they bear the curse of Ham, the Bible was interpreted this way because there was/is a demand to justify White Supremacy. The diasporic status of Jews meant that they were crowded into certain economic class positions and forced into forms of vulnerability that made attacking them extremely appealing to political and economic authorities, as a way to appropriate wealth or displace class tension. This is what incentivized the "Jews deserve it, the Bible says so" idea. The raw text of the Bible can just as easily be deployed toward philosemitism as we see in modern Christian Zionism. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:01 on May 16, 2024 |
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May 16, 2024 17:36
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Hamelekim posted:Hope I’m wrong, but I think we will find out what the world does when a nuclear power commits genocide. We've already found out: jack loving poo poo. Them actually succeeding in 100%ing the genocide won't change anything with regards to the world's response.
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May 16, 2024 17:45
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I'm skeptical that every single Zionist would agree that discriminating against Jews because of their skin color instead of their religion was a goal of Zionism. Surely at least some would say a state where that happens is at best an imperfect achievement. I mean there are black and Arab Zionists right, probably they don't like receiving racist abuse. And pointing to the racism of some 1920s Zionists, however influential, doesn't resolve this problem because they don't own Zionism. Any more than pointing out American founding fathers who liked slavery means that early America was completely free since for some Americans freedom included legalized slavery. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:27 on May 16, 2024 |
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May 16, 2024 19:21
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VitalSigns posted:I'm skeptical that every single Zionist would agree that discriminating against Jews because of their skin color instead of their religion was a goal of Zionism. I think most would agree that liberating Jews from antisemitism was the major goal of Zionism and liberating dark-skinned people from discrimination based on skin color, while admirable, was not a goal of Zionism. quote:And pointing to the racism of some 1920s Zionists, however influential, doesn't resolve this problem because they don't own Zionism. Any more than pointing out American founding fathers who liked slavery means that early America was completely free since for some Americans freedom included legalized slavery. I think if we're assessing whether Zionism succeeded, it should be evaluated against the states goals of the people who worked to make it succeed, who literally invented Zionism to achieve particular, vividly described objectives. I do think if you're going to understand either the colonization of the Americas or the American Revolution, it's important to understand that these campaigns were not initiated to end slavery. They did not go wrong, or fail, and result in slavery. No, the goal of colonization was mass extraction of wealth and labor and land, particularly by slavery, and a major goal of the American Revolution was reinforcing the slaveowner class. Slavery was not the result of a bug, but a feature. A strange number of posters here are revealing a really idealistic idea of Zionism. If Zionism actually means the abolition of racial prejudice and misogyny and corruption and all the other problems that plague the State of Israel, then we should all be Zionists! Because Zionism is a beautiful movement for the liberation of all people, the only problem is that true Zionism has never been tried. No, Zionism is an actual political movement which was developed to pursue particular goals and ending colorism was not one of them. Assessed by its actual goals - establish a Jewish state in the Jewish homeland, and populate it with Jews - it's a tremendous success. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:01 on May 16, 2024 |
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May 16, 2024 19:47
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Assessed by its actual goals - establish a Jewish state in the Jewish homeland, and populate it with Jews - it's a tremendous success. By this metric, one would also have to consider Nazi Germany a tremendous success for the so-called Aryan race (until 1945.)
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May 16, 2024 21:06
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Another pier article: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-aid-us-pier-9414c4148285917f1c858b9590117a84 The thing in this one: Fuel. It looks like the Israelis are preventing the aid organizations from getting fuel to deliver. If they can’t get it, visually cargo will begin to accumulate quickly on the shore, or the ships will be obviously not moving on the AIS. If I were dealing with that bullshit. A solution would be to load a couple of ISO container tanks full of gasoline and set up a fueling station for the aid trucks or to just slap a fuel truck on a flat rack to discharge ashore that can fill them up.
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May 16, 2024 21:37
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It's almost as if it's just a big performative thing, huh
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May 16, 2024 21:54
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Nail Rat posted:It's almost as if it's just a big performative thing, huh My estimate is that by Sat or Sun we will be seeing aid is entering Gaza news articles or what the gently caress why isn’t aid entering Gaza news articles. Should know pretty soon here. Everybody is watching at this point. It will be super visually obvious if aid is moving or not, both locally and by satellite. The Sagamore should go back and forth on a regular schedule between the pier and Cyprus and should be visible on AIS the whole time. And if they do gently caress with fuel availability on the Gaza side something can be done about that. So everybody’s cards will be on the table in days and we will see who was bluffing. Sea conditions look good through the end of the month. So i expect no further interruptions there in the short term. https://www.tide-forecast.com/tide/Ashdod/sea-conditions Longer term that could be a problem when it gets to be fall if all this is still going on. They would need build up aid in storage before fall and winter and the worse sea states if this all is still ongoing.
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May 16, 2024 22:30
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We just got to find one weird trick to keep Israel from stopping aid shipments. I'm sure there's some slight procedural thing we could do that would stop them from doing a genocide. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 16, 2024 22:55
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Bar Ran Dun posted:If I were dealing with that bullshit. If you were dealing with that bullshit, you'd be making no headway, because this isn't a technical or logistical problem.
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May 16, 2024 23:08
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Civilized Fishbot posted:
Seems to me you're coming at this from a Eurocentric perspective. Again I doubt very much that, say, Ethiopian Jews would agree that successful Zionism means a safe place for European Jews and an unsafe place for all other Jews, but only because they're the wrong color of Jew. Sure an Ashkenazim might say yeah I personally am safe so Zionism successful, but I don't think everyone else wild agree. Any more than a black person in 1960 Mississippi would agree that America's experiment in political freedom succeeded perfectly and they are actually free according to white people who don't think civil rights for other races is necessary for "freedom". VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:24 on May 16, 2024 |
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May 16, 2024 23:20
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Zionism has been successful at creating a fascist ethnostate with a strict racial hierarchy and ideas about blood purity that Hitler would have admired. In that sense, the goals of some of the early Zionists have definitely been achieved. But when evaluating the more frequently claimed goal of creating a place where Jews can be safe, Israel isn't doing so hot. Was the stated pitch for the Zionist project ever "Come to lovely Palestine, where you can live in constant fear of every neighboring country who hates you for totally justifiable reasons, and be part of a century-long race war against the people we will force you to help ethnically cleanse and oppress"? Israel isn't actually doing a very good job of keeping Jews safe, as October 7th demonstrated. Esran fucked around with this message at 23:35 on May 16, 2024 |
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May 16, 2024 23:32
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The Atlantic says there is pushback against Netanyahu https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/05/israel-defense-netanyahu-gaza-gallant/678391/ quote:The Israeli Defense Establishment Revolts Against Netanyahu 3rdEyeDeuteranopia fucked around with this message at 23:59 on May 16, 2024 |
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May 16, 2024 23:40
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Esran posted:If you were dealing with that bullshit, you'd be making no headway, because this isn't a technical or logistical problem. Logistical problems are political economy problems. Logistics is how wars are fought and the details of logistics are the material conditions underlying international relations. The logistics is a conflict. There is not a hard line between the logistics conflict and military force. That said yeah my expectation is that they (the Israeli side) escalates in some way. I think they’ll eventually blow up another aid truck.
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May 16, 2024 23:45
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:The Atlanta says there is pushback against Netanyahu This has some real War on Terror vibes. Just gotta kill the bad men, and put a puppet government in place, a quick little military adventure and then everything will be fixed. Bar Ran Dun posted:Logistical problems are political economy problems. Logistics is how wars are fought and the details of logistics are the material conditions underlying international relations. Your mistake is assuming that America wants to resolve this, and that they are willing to do so over the objections of Israel. We already know they aren't, otherwise the border crossings would be letting trucks through.
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May 16, 2024 23:55
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I think they'll blow up any aid truck that receives fuel from the pier. If they're not allowing fuel, refueling the trucks directly is playing with technicalities and Israel won't go "dammit I've been outsmarted" like a cartoon genie Not to mention, how exactly are aid trucks supposed to get to the pier in the first place, with all the borders closed, and with no fuel
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May 16, 2024 23:56
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Esran posted:We already know they aren't, otherwise the border crossings would be letting trucks through. The United States doesn’t control the Egypt Israel border or the internal border.
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May 16, 2024 23:59
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Watching the submissions before the ICJ today, and then seeing more talk in here of the pier. It just seems so utterly divorced from reality. The scale of the evil being enacted makes the idea of the pier making a difference now, even if it were being done by a nation that wasn't all in on the genocide itself, laughable.
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May 17, 2024 00:00
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The United States doesn’t control the Egypt Israel border or the internal border. No, but as we've covered extensively in this thread, the US does hold very substantial leverage over the people keeping those borders closed. It's a matter of Biden picking up the phone and ordering those borders to open, or else. It's not a question of trying to find the right boondoggle to implement that will magically allow aid deliveries to make it into Gaza unimpeded by Israel. He won't though, because he's fine with the genocide. He might wish it were done a little more quietly, but at the end of the day, he's a true believer.
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May 17, 2024 00:08
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And again if he has that influence we wouldn’t have done the pier. It’s a tremendously expensive and risky (both in the sense of politically and physically dangerous) thing to do.
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May 17, 2024 00:14
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Watching the submissions before the ICJ today, and then seeing more talk in here of the pier. It just seems so utterly divorced from reality. The scale of the evil being enacted makes the idea of the pier making a difference now, even if it were being done by a nation that wasn't all in on the genocide itself, laughable.
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May 17, 2024 00:18
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Bar Ran Dun posted:And again if he has that influence we wouldn’t have done the pier. It’s a tremendously expensive and risky (both in the sense of politically and physically dangerous) thing to do. I think you are showing incredible credulity in the face of overwhelming evidence that Biden is not willing to hinder (or even stop actively supporting and arming) Israel's genocide. You know that he unilaterally sent extra weapons to Israel to kill civilians with, right? You must be aware that he could at any time threaten Netanyahu with reduced political (e.g. at the UN), military or financial support if he doesn't knock it off? He hasn't. You're essentially arguing that this idiotic pier is the best possible solution, and your evidence is that if it weren't, Biden wouldn't be doing it. Esran fucked around with this message at 00:31 on May 17, 2024 |
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May 17, 2024 00:29
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Esran posted:You're essentially arguing that this idiotic pier is the best possible solution, and your evidence is that if it weren't, Biden wouldn't be doing it. You misunderstand, it’s the worst solution. It’s the riskiest, most dangerous, most expensive response. It puts the most American lives in danger and carries the highest potential political risk of all the other choices. It’s slow, it’s seasonal, it pleases nobody. It’s the “no other option was considered viable” choice. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 01:01 on May 17, 2024 |
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May 17, 2024 00:40
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Bar Ran Dun posted:And again if he has that influence we wouldn’t have done the pier. Please provide objective evidence that your counterfactual conditional is true here. Spoiler: You can't. Building the pier is entirely logically consistent with the alternative explanation that Biden is simply unwilling to exert leverage or influence over the Israelis. Every single argument you make on this topic relies on a counterfactual like this, and unless you can rule out the alternative explanations (all of them!) somehow, your claims are all basically meaningless. There's a reason why arguments like 'if x were y then z wouldn't have happened' aren't taken seriously in any rigorous argumentative context - namely, that you can't really determine whether they're true by looking at objective evidence in almost every case. (You can read more about this here if you want to see the hoops people jump through to try to analyze arguments like that, but even w/ the fancy symbols there's still no way to determine objectively whether arguments in that form are sound). You're the guy trying to insist that "If Lebron never left the Cavs then they would have won 5 NBA titles!" or whatever. Someone can believe that or disbelieve it, but it's not a serious claim that can be evaluated rationally. In the real world, Biden has not attempted to use any serious leverage, so we don't know whether the attempt would fail or not, and ergo we do not know whether he would or wouldn't have done the pier anyway.
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May 17, 2024 00:42
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arguably the pier itself is a big piece of leverage realistically, idk the point of arguing over it because it'll be quite apparent in the coming days and weeks exactly how earnest of an effort it represents
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May 17, 2024 00:48
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Gnumonic posted:Please provide objective evidence that your counterfactual conditional is true here. Do governments use hard power when they have soft power alternatives? The objective fact is that they installed the pier. That’s a hard power action, it’s literally power power protection, like definitionally power projection, it’s the installation of the actual physical logistics a state uses to deploy and sustain forces outside its territory. Edit: Herstory Begins Now posted:arguably the pier itself is a big piece of leverage Days, we should know in days. We (the US) are cowards if those people don’t get fed after all this. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 00:56 on May 17, 2024 |
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May 17, 2024 00:52
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VitalSigns posted:Seems to me you're coming at this from a Eurocentric perspective. Yes, Zionism up to the establishment of Israel was in its origin and in operation a European (and American) movement. Its goals were Eurocentric. It succeeded in accomplishing them. moths posted:By this metric, one would also have to consider Nazi Germany a tremendous success for the so-called Aryan race (until 1945.) If Nazi Germany were still around today then yeah I would say Nazism had succeeded. It's not only admirable political movements that succeed, and success doesn't always mean making everyone happy and free. It means the politicians who launched the movement accomplished the goals motivating their work. The Nazis generally didn't - Germany's borders didn't expand and it's not an ethnostate. The Zionists did achieve their goals. VitalSigns posted:Any more than a black person in 1960 Mississippi would agree that America's experiment in political freedom succeeded perfectly and they are actually free according to white people who don't think civil rights for other races is necessary for "freedom". I'd like to think a Black Americans in 1960 Mississippi - I've only met one person who eve was, and he was a kid back then - wouldn't be so delusional as to think that America's leading politicians *wanted* to establish freedom for Black people, but they failed, they screwed up, and whoops Black Americans are still under the boot of White Supremacy. Because that's not the actual history. I'd like to think they'd be able to say, correctly, "this is the world that the people in power wanted to create, our welfare was never part of their plan and still isn't, and it's why we have to seize power and create a better one." The insight at the heart of radical politics which rapidly dramatically improved the power and living standard of Black Americans. White supremacy is not an unfortunate accident or failure in the history of the United States. It is the system working as intended. I don't know why people who I thought were woke on this are now saying otherwise, or that Zionism isn't working as intended, that Zionism is actually intrinsically anti-racist. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 01:17 on May 17, 2024 |
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May 17, 2024 00:54
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Do governments use hard power when they have soft power alternatives? If the soft power does not fulfill their goals but the hard power does, yes, they do. Biden's goal is to have something he can point to in order to claim he is trying to prevent the genocide while not - and this is important - actually interfering with the progress of the genocide in any way. All the soft power options you're talking about fail either one or the other of these conditions - either they aren't concrete enough to provide the political cover Biden wants for himself, or they would actually impede Israel's ability to commit genocide, which Joe Biden does not want because Joe Biden supports Israel's genocide.
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May 17, 2024 00:59
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cat botherer posted:We just got to find one weird trick to keep Israel from stopping aid shipments. I'm sure there's some slight procedural thing we could do that would stop them from doing a genocide. "Skip the Israeli crossings entirely and come in via the coast" seems like it might do the trick. We'll see though.
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May 17, 2024 01:20
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The cynical view of the purpose of the pier is that it represents an acknowledgement that pictures of starving kids in Gaza is probably the main thing that could rapidly destroy American public (and more importantly, the political class's) support for Israel. Basically it would be an attempt to not repeat what happened in Yemen when public opinion rapidly turned against continuing to support the Saudis as the famine caused by the blockade became basically the entirety of the narrative.
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May 17, 2024 01:25
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Herstory Begins Now posted:The cynical view of the purpose of the pier is that it represents an acknowledgement that pictures of starving kids in Gaza is probably the main thing that could rapidly destroy American public (and more importantly, the political class's) support for Israel. Basically it would be an attempt to not repeat what happened in Yemen when public opinion rapidly turned against continuing to support the Saudis as the famine caused by the blockade became basically the entirety of the narrative.
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May 17, 2024 01:33
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Another pier article: holy poo poo what?? no way
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