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asdf32 posted:And genes control brain structure There is quite a bit more to it than that. asdf32 posted:gender is innate. uhhh
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Apr 25, 2016 22:37
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:This is why everyone who gives a crap makes it clear that it doesn't matter what the source of transgendered-ness is. The fact is we exist, our identities are legitimate, and the treatments have been well-identified by the medical community. Anybody who tries to use any sort of sciency-sounding argument to claim trans people are just men in dresses/women in flannel is at odds with the consensus of the psychiatric and medical communities. We don't even understand why people have favorite colors, much less the complex workings of gender and identity in the brain. Trying to bring any arguments about that sort of thing in is just going down a dead end. Except that practically speaking it does matter because. For example people who think homosexuality or gender identification is a choice are significantly less likely to support LGBT rights. This has gone hand in hand with improvements in LBGT rights: 
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Apr 26, 2016 00:22
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But regardless of what people believe, there is no logical connection between innateness and support for pro-LGBT policies. Conceivably, someone could be any of the 4 possible options and still be consistent.
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Apr 26, 2016 02:51
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Discrimination really doesn't seem to have much to do with whether or not the relevant factor is innate. Religious affiliation is obviously not innate yet it was constitutionally protected from almost the founding of the USA, whereas skin color is innate yet de jure protection lagged by 100 years and de facto protection still isn't completely achieved. The medical and psychological acceptance of homosexuality as within the normal spectrum of human sexuality had more to do with studies showing the prevailing theories that it was pathological were unsupported by evidence rather than by people coming to believe it's innate. Plenty of people believed it was innate but pathological and that gay people needed to be treated with drugs, electroshock, etc for their own good.
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Apr 26, 2016 09:43
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NathanScottPhillips posted:Personally, I feel that in 20 years, maybe sooner, when neuroscience has progressed to the point where it can pinpoint the reasons why people need sex changes it will be treatable with medication or therapy, just like depression is now. This period of surgery and hormone supplements will be looked back on in the same light we look back on lobotomies. Right, I know this is from five pages ago, but there's been further speculation regarding such a magic pill so I'm throwing in my two cents. This sentiment is absurd. How in the world is surgery and hormones closer to a lobotomy than a hypothetical pill or procedure that erases someone's identity? Sure, there are risks to surgery and hormones. Well, I'm not aware of any psychiatric medications with no risks of serious side effects. Some are potentially lethal and/or addictive. It can be a very long time and/or a matter of luck to find something that adequately treats whatever issue without a negative impact to something else. At least the neat thing about hormones is you can tell pretty quickly whether they make you feel better. If you feel worse, you can stop. There are some irreversible effects, but they're not some on/off switch -- they generally take a long time of hormone use to build up to a significant extent (e.g. a trans man starting male pattern baldness). In terms of my personal experience, I see this as a straightforward, physical issue. I don't ultimately care what gender may or may not mean. I just know that I'm happier, healthier, and more productive with testosterone. And it's not doing myself or anyone else any substantial harm. So how am I the crazy one as opposed to someone who would want to take that away?
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Apr 26, 2016 10:07
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asdf32 posted:Except that practically speaking it does matter because. For example people who think homosexuality or gender identification is a choice are significantly less likely to support LGBT rights. And yet, there are who think it is a choice and who do support it. So it's just a correlation. It shouldn't matter if it's a choice.
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Apr 26, 2016 19:08
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Culinary Bears posted:Right, I know this is from five pages ago, but there's been further speculation regarding such a magic pill so I'm throwing in my two cents. Yeah I agree, there is no point at all developing alternative treatments for this problem, irreversible surgery that is not accessible to the vast majority of the worlds transgender population and extremely dangerous unless done by a highly qualified surgeon is the only solution, and is the perfect solution.
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Apr 26, 2016 19:37
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asdf32 posted:Except that practically speaking it does matter because. For example people who think homosexuality or gender identification is a choice are significantly less likely to support LGBT rights. I didn't say it was a choice. I just said that it doesn't matter whether its a genetic thing, a conditioning thing determined in the early years of life, a hormonal thing, etc. trying to argue about sources of it to prove a point just derails into a game of points scoring by nitpicking each others' arguments. What matters is that being trans is (in some way) an innate part of a person that they have no control over, full stop. What matters it that it isn't a choice, not the reason that it isn't a choice.
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Apr 26, 2016 19:39
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Lichy posted:Yeah I agree, there is no point at all developing alternative treatments for this problem, irreversible surgery that is not accessible to the vast majority of the worlds transgender population and extremely dangerous unless done by a highly qualified surgeon is the only solution, and is the perfect solution. uh you do realize that surgery is just one of the treatments available to transpersons, right? i cant tell if you're trying to make a joke and failing or if you're being ironic
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Apr 26, 2016 20:24
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Yeah, I'm surprised this still has to be reiterated in this day and age, but there are trans people who use hormones but don't want surgery, or vice versa, or neither, all depending on their circumstances, desires, and health. There are non-binary people who do not need whatever your idea of the "full package" is to remove their dysphoria and/or function at their best. There are many doses and ways of taking hormones, some of which are straightforward and very cheap. I don't see any grounds for some neurology rewiring pill/procedure coming out safer and cheaper than plain old thoroughly-studied and widely manufactured hormones. The same ones used for hormonal issues in cis people, for birth control, etc. And there are, similarly, many different kinds of surgeries with varying risks, costs, and complexity. Stuff like breast implants and reductions isn't some experimental high-risk new procedure. Now, I'm no expert on the US healthcare system. But wouldn't it be simplest to increase accessibility, reduce risks, and increase expertise by just having trans health care be in the curriculum for the relevant medical professions? Is there any area of it that is so impossibly far away from what endocrinologists, plastic surgeons, and general practitioners already do? Culinary Bears fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 21:42
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Lichy posted:Yeah I agree, there is no point at all developing alternative treatments for this problem, irreversible surgery that is not accessible to the vast majority of the worlds transgender population and extremely dangerous unless done by a highly qualified surgeon is the only solution, and is the perfect solution. I too believe that we should focus on the pretend fantasies of posters in this thread and not the solutions provided by doctors and reality.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:58
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asdf32 posted:And genes control brain structure so I don't know what you think this means. When people self identify as a gender they haven't been socialized for they're clearly tapping into something innate (genetic). I think you might be misunderstanding the role genes have in influencing complex traits. It's not just genes that are important; it's also environment and the gene by environment interaction. Two individuals with the exact same genetic input could have completely different outcomes depending upon, for example, conditions in the womb. So while it's true that the state of the brain is ultimately affected by an individual's genes, genes themselves are not necessarily sufficient to determine a complex trait like gender.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:31
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I didn't say it was a choice. I just said that it doesn't matter whether its a genetic thing, a conditioning thing determined in the early years of life, a hormonal thing, etc. trying to argue about sources of it to prove a point just derails into a game of points scoring by nitpicking each others' arguments. What matters is that being trans is (in some way) an innate part of a person that they have no control over, full stop. What matters it that it isn't a choice, not the reason that it isn't a choice. Well I agree except for the 'early years of life part'. Some people show signs of being transgendered at an early age and suggesting that their gender identification is still subject to influence isn't supported by evidence and may be damaging if that's the attitude pursued. That's why I don't see any point in tiptoeing around this which is what some people seem to be doing: gender is innate to the individual and human nature in general at a biological level. It's not a choice. It can't be changed. There is no point agreeing with the last two while trying to downplay the biology part. Especially when the 'not a choice' part matters in a practical, political and moral sense. Ytlaya posted:I think you might be misunderstanding the role genes have in influencing complex traits. It's not just genes that are important; it's also environment and the gene by environment interaction. Two individuals with the exact same genetic input could have completely different outcomes depending upon, for example, conditions in the womb. So while it's true that the state of the brain is ultimately affected by an individual's genes, genes themselves are not necessarily sufficient to determine a complex trait like gender. I'm not and I don't think you're understanding what I said seeing how I referenced the fact that hormones may be responsible for selecting which gender someone identifies as. There are obviously both innate and cultural aspects to gender (the cultural ones dominate in many ways though we don't know exactly where the dividing lines are). But there are innate parts, and they're genetic.
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Apr 28, 2016 00:32
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it's pretty simple, people don't need to complicate it, you're born either a male or female. There's no changing that.
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Apr 28, 2016 05:11
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Jebediah Kerman posted:it's pretty simple, people don't need to complicate it, you're born either a male or female. There's no changing that. yep, it's just not in the way cisnormative people assume you mean that 
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Apr 28, 2016 05:32
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Jebediah Kerman posted:it's pretty simple, people don't need to complicate it, you're born either a male or female. There's no changing that. this isn't true. about 1% of humans are born with ambiguous genitals and about 0.1% of humans are born genetically neither male nor female, but somewhere in between
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Apr 28, 2016 05:33
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asdf32 posted:I'm not and I don't think you're understanding what I said seeing how I referenced the fact that hormones may be responsible for selecting which gender someone identifies as. There are obviously both innate and cultural aspects to gender (the cultural ones dominate in many ways though we don't know exactly where the dividing lines are). But there are innate parts, and they're genetic. When I say environment, I'm not just referring to culture. "Innate" aspects of gender might be influenced by the actual physical environment of a developing fetus (i.e. the mother/mother's womb). Or by the interaction of an individual's genes and that environment (or other aspects of the environment such as a person's diet, etc.). It's pretty much impossible to determine if a trait as complex as gender (as it pertains to a person's brain in particular) is determined solely by genetics, at least given our current knowledge of genetics/biology. Edit: I think you would be correct if you said that there was a solely physical basis to some aspects of gender, but that's not the same thing as specifying an individual's genetics alone. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 10:13
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Jebediah Kerman posted:it's pretty simple, people don't need to complicate it, you're born either a male or female. There's no changing that. So...are you completely discounting intersex individuals and/or those who are nonbinary?
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Apr 28, 2016 11:10
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Obdicut posted:And yet, there are who think it is a choice and who do support it. So it's just a correlation. The notion that it's fine because it's not a choice is kinda bizarre because you could use that to justify a lot of very bad behaviors that people do due to inborn traits. Just saying there's nothing wrong with homosexuality in general seems like something better in general.
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Apr 28, 2016 11:14
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Popular Thug Drink posted:this isn't true. about 1% of humans are born with ambiguous genitals and about 0.1% of humans are born genetically neither male nor female, but somewhere in between oh yeah I forgot about that. I guess intersex would be the word then as someone said here? Most people are either male or female though
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Apr 28, 2016 15:45
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Jebediah Kerman posted:oh yeah I forgot about that. I guess intersex would be the word then as someone said here? Sex and gender are different.
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Apr 28, 2016 16:00
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Jebediah Kerman posted:oh yeah I forgot about that. I guess intersex would be the word then as someone said here? we dont make laws for most people, we make laws for all people. if you look at all people, a minority of them are not fully male nor female in one way or another, and so in the interest of protecting individual rights we need to account for these people in society
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Apr 28, 2016 16:25
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I think "gender identity" is just a state of mind, and has nothing to do with your bathing suit area. I consider any attempts to physically alter your body whether it be turning your outtie in to a innie or getting a piercing or tattoo on the same spectrum, just at different places. Your anatomical sex is different than your "gender identity" and is 100% based on your DNA, which is highly correlated with your bathing suit area equipment.
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Apr 28, 2016 17:35
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Reik posted:
Sorry to be persnickety but it's not even discernible from DNA. It's phenotype not genotype. You can have completely male DNA and have a completely female appearing body, including genitalia.
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Apr 28, 2016 19:59
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Obdicut posted:Sorry to be persnickety but it's not even discernible from DNA. It's phenotype not genotype. You can have completely male DNA and have a completely female appearing body, including genitalia. I probably phrased it poorly. For the most part, your biological sex is based on being XX or XY, but because there are exceptions it's only highly correlated, not 100% correlated.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:06
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jivjov posted:So...are you completely discounting intersex individuals and/or those who are nonbinary? I think they might be trolling.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:07
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Reik posted:I probably phrased it poorly. For the most part, your biological sex is based on being XX or XY, but because there are exceptions it's only highly correlated, not 100% correlated. Yeah just not 100% based on DNA is all I was picking you up on. Your basic point is fine and good. Biological sex is the result of the development process which is an interaction between DNA and environment, most of the time predictably but not always. To bring it back to the thread: There is simply no reason to believe that that development is also accompanied by, say, brain development that is also gender linked, or if there is that we know what those differences are.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:13
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Obdicut posted:Sex and gender are different. no need to complicate things, most people are male or female, with a few intersex folks. That's all the definition that's necessary. Popular Thug Drink posted:we dont make laws for most people, we make laws for all people. if you look at all people, a minority of them are not fully male nor female in one way or another, and so in the interest of protecting individual rights we need to account for these people in society Yes, I agree, intersex people should be accounted for.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:16
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if we're counting intersex people we need to count transgender people too, on the same basis that sex/gender are not always linked nor do they conform to any current societal framework of gender roles
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Apr 28, 2016 20:20
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Popular Thug Drink posted:if we're counting intersex people we need to count transgender people too, on the same basis that sex/gender are not always linked nor do they conform to any current societal framework of gender roles Transgender is more of a state of mind is it not? It doesn't have to do with how you were born, it's just someone thinking they're female when they're really male, or vice versa. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:26
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Obdicut posted:And yet, there are who think it is a choice and who do support it. So it's just a correlation. Well it does. There's a pretty sizable reaction against this type of thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho Being trans needs to be distinguished from being otherkin and poo poo like that so it doesn't get tied in with this sort of "PC run amok" worldview. It's something separate. Something real.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:30
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Transgender is more of a state of mind is it not? It doesn't have to do with how you were born, it's just someone thinking they're female when they're really male, or vice versa. Correct me if I'm wrong. you're wrong. gender is influenced by a complicated series of brain and hormonal factors, someone can have a male sex and male genetics while having a brain that tends more female. there's no strict polarity between male and female in humans, as a sexually dimorphous species all human males were females at some point and the female -> male process can halt or go sideways at any time during fetal growth, childhood, or puberty. so there's no such thing as a human who's "really male"
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Apr 28, 2016 20:41
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Popular Thug Drink posted:you're wrong. gender is influenced by a complicated series of brain and hormonal factors, someone can have a male sex and male genetics while having a brain that tends more female. there's no strict polarity between male and female in humans, as a sexually dimorphous species all human males were females at some point and the female -> male process can halt or go sideways at any time during fetal growth, childhood, or puberty. so there's no such thing as a human who's "really male" Okay, but there would still be only three choices right? Male, female, and both? I've heard a few times that transgenderism is a mental disorder, is there any truth to this? Also, when you say "having a brain that tends more female" just sounds like someone is thinking they're female, which may not be the sex, and genetic case.
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Apr 28, 2016 20:53
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Okay, but there would still be only three choices right? Male, female, and both? no. are there only three colors? someone can be mostly male but a little female, or sorta male sorta female, but really the terms 'male' and 'female' don't mean much because they're determined by a societal expectation of what men and women are supposed to do, which is extremely arbitrary anyway. pink used to be a masculine color for little boys. women used to do dangerous farm labor before victorian-era signals of wealth meant that you were societally better than others if as a lady you could afford to sit inside all day doing nothing useful genetically people can be male, female, or a whole host of things in between. there's really no logical reason to bucket people into groups called Male and Female except that's how people are used to thinking and they don't like change Jebediah Kerman posted:I've heard a few times that transgenderism is a mental disorder, is there any truth to this? no, transgenderism can be thought of as a social disorder because how someone feels and identifies is not what society expects them to be, and if society (and your family, and your peers) are telling you constantly that who you are is bad or wrong or sinful or disgusting then this is obviously going to cause mental problems. gender dysphoria is treated more as a disagreement between someone's identity, their outward appearance, and the identity pushed on them from the outside, and in this equation of someone's mind, someone's body, and what society expects the easiest thing to change is the body Jebediah Kerman posted:Also, when you say "having a brain that tends more female" just sounds like someone is thinking they're female, which may not be the sex, and genetic case. people think things because their brain causes them to think this way. you're not just a perfect rational ghost in a meat jar, your brain structures and chemicals directly impact the way that you think about and process the world. if someone's brain has structures which are more associated with females than males but that person is in a genetically male body, then they think they are female because for all effective purposes they have the same identity as a female. they basically are a female. i'm assuming you're male, so why do you think you're male? what if you're wrong?
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Apr 28, 2016 21:02
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Also, when you say "having a brain that tends more female" just sounds like someone is thinking they're female, which may not be the sex, and genetic case. Not sure if you're aware of this, but the brain is an actual physical organ that is a part of your body. There are a number of difference between the brains of the average male and female person.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:11
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Popular Thug Drink posted:people think things because their brain causes them to think this way. you're not just a perfect rational ghost in a meat jar, your brain structures and chemicals directly impact the way that you think about and process the world. if someone's brain has structures which are more associated with females than males but that person is in a genetically male body, then they think they are female because for all effective purposes they have the same identity as a female. they basically are a female. i'm assuming you're male, so why do you think you're male? what if you're wrong? So if one day I woke up and started thinking I was female, I would be female? What if I tried convincing myself I was female, and eventually believed it, would I be female then?
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Apr 28, 2016 21:15
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Volkerball posted:Well it does. There's a pretty sizable reaction against this type of thing. This is stupid because there's literally a difference between saying you're 7 years old vs saying you're Chinese vs saying you're a woman. Oh it gets even better. Being 6 ft 5 inches is literally a physical measurement.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:17
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Jebediah Kerman posted:So if one day I woke up and started thinking I was female, I would be female? What if I tried convincing myself I was female, and eventually believed it, would I be female then? probably not, because you would think that you were female from a young age. you're getting actual transgenderism confused with people just being confused on gender identity, and i hope you're not leading up into some weird rant about tumblr or some internet grudge there's a difference between people who have some kind of biologically based trans identity versus whatever teenagers are talking about on the internet this month. as of yet though there's no real way to differentiate between these two groups based on casual, brief observation or self claims so my advice is to not let it bother you
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Apr 28, 2016 21:18
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Popular Thug Drink posted:probably not, because you would think that you were female from a young age. you're getting actual transgenderism confused with people just being confused on gender identity, and i hope you're not leading up into some weird rant about tumblr or some internet grudge so what would transgenderism be? having a female brain when you have male sex, and male genetics, or vice versa? Or something in between? Good lord this is already confusing me.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:27
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Jebediah Kerman posted:so what would transgenderism be? having a female brain when you have male sex, and male genetics, or vice versa? Or something in between? Good lord this is already confusing me. Pretty lame troll though. And no such thing as a female brain .
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Apr 28, 2016 21:34
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