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girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Looking like we may need to have at least one runoff secondary vote, but it's much too early to say without many responses. I'll leave it up for a couple of days and we can go from there.

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itsmekidney
May 6, 2019

PMush Perfect posted:

Looking like we may need to have at least one runoff secondary vote, but it's much too early to say without many responses. I'll leave it up for a couple of days and we can go from there.

Is there anything we should be doing in the meantime?

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Poll results because oh gently caress I forgot I was supposed to do that:

~75% of people who answered are neutral or better about animal people, with a full 50% being in favor. I think “animal people” is the general theme of the set, we’ll make a contest about the details.

Naya, Grixis, and Jund are overwhelmingly confirmed to have the expected mechanics.

Bant is going to have a runoff vote between Legacy and Enchanters, I’ll put that together in a bit.

Esper officially has Mirror, which got 50% of the vote, more than twice as much as any other option. The other two options to get any kind of serious traction were... Unfinished/Legacy and Enchanters again!

Monger is our only confirmed artifacts/all shards mechanic, though Enchanters might show up in a minor way if they lose to Legacy in Bant.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
And here it is.

We’ve got 4/5s of the Shards confirmed, as well as the basic general theme. In the morning, I’ll put together the new contest post! It’ll be about creating the flavor for the factions.

AJ_Impy
Jun 17, 2007

SWORD OF SMATTAS. CAN YOU NOT HEAR A WORLD CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE? WHEN WILL YOU DELIVER IT?
Yam Slacker
Neither, write-in for Twin.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

AJ_Impy posted:

Neither, write-in for Twin.
That’s not how run off votes work. Legacy and Enchanters are the closest to getting a majority, Twin was too far back.

I’ll add a “seriously, neither of them”, though

AJ_Impy
Jun 17, 2007

SWORD OF SMATTAS. CAN YOU NOT HEAR A WORLD CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE? WHEN WILL YOU DELIVER IT?
Yam Slacker
Appreciated. Enchanter is deeply parasitic, and unfinished doesn’t solve the fundamental problems of haunt. Neither is a great fit here.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Make a case for it! You might convince some people.

And I’m considering swapping over to an approval vote instead, which would give more agency. Hm. Actually, let me do that.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Okay, poll has been changed to “check all that apply”. Responses have been cleared, so everyone who voted, please do so again.

Lack of Bear
Jun 12, 2007

he couldn't bear it


I don't see how enchanters are parasitic. Without any support they still function as a risk reward effect as long as you have the enchanter around. They don't rely on other enchanters or even enchantment synergies to be effective. Mirror and Bloodrite are parasitic. You have to do a lot of work to make them function within a set environment.

Zurai
Feb 13, 2012


Wait -- I haven't even voted in this game yet!

Enchanters aren't parasitic because they interact with other MtG mechanics outside the set. For example, Constellation. They don't interact with all the Enchantments Matter stuff because they aren't spells and aren't cast, but they do still have synergy outside of this set.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Alright, new contest while we figure this out.


Flavor a Faction!

So, we've talked about this for a bit, time for another actual contest, finally!

Here's what we know for sure: Animal people of some kind are involved, and the shard mechanics are Bloodrite for Grixis, Husk for Jund, Momentum for Naya, Mirror for Esper, and Monger for colorless/all colors. Bant may be Twin, Legacy, or Enchanters, but we have no way of knowing just yet.

Your mission is this: Design the flavor for :siren: one faction per entry. :siren: You can, as always, make multiple entries, but do not put them in the same post or the same application. Make sure they stand reasonably well without each other.

Each of your entries should have the following.
  • A name.
  • A color identity.
  • A basic overview of the faction and their philosophy.
  • An iconic creature type. (Hound, Bear, Insect, etc.)
  • A faction leader.

Along with the rough overview, this is a bottom-up set, so be sure to include several example cards, including one for the leader and at least a few basic rank-and-file, especially commons and uncommons that you'll see a lot of in drafting. (Some of these should be creatures, but they don't all have to be, and in fact probably shouldn't.) Our goal here is narrative through mechanics. Don't write a five page essay about your leader's history and motivations, just show it in their cards.

In about two weeks, we'll have another big poll, with separate questions for every faction. (This is why it'll be important to keep your entries separate! One may end up much more popular than another.)

Any questions?

girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Aug 27, 2020

President Ark
May 16, 2010

:iiam:
i'd exempt planeswalkers from this, the rest seems fairly reasonable but that seems like something that requires more thought and/or looking at the rest of the set

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?

President Ark posted:

i'd exempt planeswalkers from this, the rest seems fairly reasonable but that seems like something that requires more thought and/or looking at the rest of the set
Fair point.

Also, we've still only got five entries on the vote!

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019
Cute animals is a good set theme specifically because it lets us reveal what sort of archetypes to play from mechanics rather than from a narrative. A recent-ish example of a bottom-up set design, Kaladesh, is a great example of this. Kaladesh has draft archetypes based on styles of play, but doesn't have 10 distinct factions with leaders. This is good to me because it makes it easy to just design good cards, not having to worry about finding art that looks like the correct faction, featuring the correct creature type, etc etc.

So... I guess my theme for Naya is "cute animalfolk." They don't have a clear philosophical identity but they have a mechanical identity of aggressive and overwhelming attackers, a sort of combination of white weenies and goblins (minus the creature type) in a way.




girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Update: Twin is still just bearly winning.

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019
I'm a little alarmed to find out about mirror winning because it's basically made to pair with twin, which I think will lead to people trying to draft both at the same time. I can't think of any world where the twin mechanics and the mirror win conditions aren't essentially the same.

Lack of Bear
Jun 12, 2007

he couldn't bear it


I decided to try and give Mirror a shot because I want to see if it is possible to create a limited environment somewhere between mirror being trivial and always on, or rarely on. I think if there is too much support, say an entire other faction who's keyword supports it, the power level has to be really low to the point of being effects that are usually thrown on as riders to spice something up. In a normal set where you just get two of the same card sometimes you can do splashy effects, but there would be no point in choosing this mechanic and not designing cards to support it. It is really hard to tell where we end up without playing the set a lot and tweaking, but this is my attempt.

They are fish.









Lack of Bear fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Aug 31, 2020

Lack of Bear
Jun 12, 2007

he couldn't bear it


I started making bloodrite cards and about halfway through I realized they are supposed to be grixis not jund. I can not in my mind justify a monoblue card with "whenever you sacrifice a permanent." It is a jund ability.
Here are some cards if anyone needs bloodrite ideas I guess:


Anshu
Jan 9, 2019


I have a few submissions I'm working on, but although they aren't quite ready yet, I wanted to post some meta. It seems like investment has really fallen off lately, and even after a reread of the thread it seems to me like it happened shortly after we abandoned the idea of a revolutionary theme. It's true that it might cause arguments, but that hasn't happened yet, and I think there's a case to be made that it also helped spark inspiration. Furthermore, I think the mechanics that we've settled on are extremely well-suited to such a theme.


In Naya, which we were thinking of as the common people, we have Momentum, representing the way that victory for the proletariat masses has to come through a compounding of sheer numbers, with participation by all according to their abilities.


Bant is adjacent to and overlapping with Naya, so it makes sense to put them in the role of the petty bourgeoisie - people who own their places of work, but still have to perform that work in order to make a living. Assigning them the Twin mechanic represents the way in which they have to work and reinvest their labor in order to grow and expand.


Next is Esper, representing what I'm calling the grand bourgeoisie. In contrast to the petty bourgeoisie and the proletariat, they make their living by owning things, not by doing things. Mirror fits this perfectly, as it's triggered by controlling multiple permanents of the same name: the more you control, the stronger you become.


Grixis takes the slot of the nobility. There's some overlap with the grand bourgeoisie, but their primary mechanic, Bloodrite, points us to the image of decadent, overconsuming aristocrats, sacrificing their resources and their people to feed their endless need for indulgence and prestige.


Finally, Jund assumes the role of the fascist and/or authoritarian rebel factions: ostensibly aligned with Naya, but quite comfortable with bloodshed and sacrifice of the many for the sake of the few. Their mechanic, Husk, is admittedly the least connected to their place in this schema, but interpreting it to represent the way that brutality and trauma can hollow a person out and leave them as a shell of their former self doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me.

You can consider this both a preview of the factions I'm putting together, and an argument in favor of reviving the revolution story for this set.

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019
Honestly, I'm all for revisiting the idea of the Revolutionary Set. I think it's good, and that's not just because it was my own idea.

That said, I don't think I agree with your factions. While those factions make sense historically, in Magic we only have so much design space to differentiate a faction from another. Especially because this set is top-down, if you can't demonstrate it in a single picture, it might as well not exist. I've been really struggling to figure out how a newcomer would be able to differentiate between petty and grand bourgeois and nobility, which I think will all end up blending together into "wealthy."

I have a few ideas, but most importantly I just want to stress the idea that we need to work in big, broad strokes.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019


I'm willing to consider alternate faction breakdowns if people can come up with them.

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019
Here's my own ideas. They're divorced from mechanics right now but only because this is my first draft.


The Proles: This is the first faction, and the only one I'm dead set on, really. Here we have a group of serfs who are fighting for revolutionary freedom. I don't know if I've brought this up before but honestly, they don't have to be Russian. The French and to a much lesser extent the US also had violent uprisings, and if your theme is less "Russia" than it is "revolution" you actually end up with a lot to work with.

The Nobles: Our nobility group is the main villains of the story. I feel a natural want to make them vampires, but also Ixilan did "Nobility as vampires" so incredibly well that it feels like we're stepping on grounds that have been done better. One classic trope I sort of like is the idea that the nobles are in league with devils, having sold their souls for power. Classic.

Foreign Agents: In real world revolutions, there's literally always this group of foreigners who are getting their grubby paws in there. I like this idea because the foreign agents can be very different from the Nobility in terms of being very sneaky and underhanded. They're spies, after all. These guys would need blue-black of course.

The Fey: This is a wild card, but one thing that's very important in any Magic set is the feeling of a magic world, and the Revolution is modern enough that it doesn't really feel like it's there. Russia specifically has a ton of folklore that could be interpreted into the set in big ways, and a lot of it is very fun. A Magic equivalent of Baba Yaga would be a very cool but also sort of classic fantasy thing to include, and could rope in players who didn't want to do the old set.

The umm, Stalinists: At first I was hesitant to include this, because I think they might be tough to differentiate from the Proles... But actually I think they're pretty different. Specifically, their tactics could be different in such a way as to make it clear that these guys aren't actually buddies. I know I already suggested that the nobles sold their souls to devils, but it'd be way better if these guys did. A group of people who perhaps caused the revolution by allying with devils, searching for an internal power coup but getting swept up in evil, feels like a pretty classic trope of revolution gone bad. And the leader could be an immortal lich Rasputin, now that I think about it.




Also though, this is, and I can't stress this enough, extremely top-down design. Bottom-Up design would have us design the cards in more detail before we even talked about this, imo.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019


Hm, rather than Marxist class analysis, what if we use the Three Estates? Naya is the Third Estate is the commons, I think we all agree on that as our starting point. The First Estate (clergy) could be split over two shards, one favoring the commons and one favoring the nobility. The Second Estate (nobles) could also be split between liberal reformers and conservative diehards, or between low nobles and high nobles, or we could make the royal house into a faction unto itself.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019


itsmekidney posted:

Foreign Agents: In real world revolutions, there's literally always this group of foreigners who are getting their grubby paws in there. I like this idea because the foreign agents can be very different from the Nobility in terms of being very sneaky and underhanded. They're spies, after all. These guys would need blue-black of course.

Grixis. The Carbonari.

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
What about Peasants, Nobles/Royalty, Foreign Agents, the Fey, and the Clergy?

Peasants: Naya
Clergy: Bant
Nobles: Esper
Foreign Agents: Grixis
Fey: Jund

BaiSha
Jul 9, 2012
Husk is my baby, so I have a Jund submission that I am putting some finishing touches on and I'm interested in getting to work on bloodrite in grixis, but if we're doing flavor talk, I'll post my idea for a setting. I think it comes close to the revolutionary theme mentioned above, but it is a little more grounded and gives some more specific guidelines on flavor than just economic class. I'm trying to keep everything in broad strokes to make tweaks easy, if any of this looks interesting then feel free to take the good parts and scrap the rest.

Overview, full world background
The set takes place on a plane uninhabited by intelligent life. There was a civilization there a long time ago, but they're gone now. There was some kind of disaster and since then the wild plants and animals have taken things over. All that's left is a few ruined cities and some weird magical artifacts/power crystals/wards etc. if anything like that proves necessary.

In the mean time on some unrelated plane there were a bunch of people and groups that were for whatever reason unsatisfied with the status quo (the khans are dicks, the gods are dicks, the phyrexians are dicks, the guildpact is totally unfair, something like that) and found a way to leave, together, by bribing a planeswalker or using some Ancient Machine. This is not something that they could have done alone. They needed to pool their resources in order to make the trip, but none of them really like each other.

After arriving on the new plane the colonists immediately began squabbling, each eventually carving out their own part of the wilderness. They soon realized how dependant they were on the social order that they were fleeing, which prompted a change in perspective from each of these groups.

The only major city is built around the planar gate that they came through. There are only a few other places that could be called cities or towns, each is controlled by one of the groups. Independent homesteads are also fairly common, but wild animals and banditry are both major problems between the settlements and the lack of rule of law is acutely felt outside of town.

TL;DR -- like the disposessed, but everyone is an rear end in a top hat or like azatlan, but there are no aztecs and everyone is a different flavor of conquistador

The factions
In the case of each of these I'll try to provide what they were doing before they left, what they are doing now, what kind of a settlement they run, some ideas for creature types, and an explanation of how they represent their mechanic.

Bant
Why they left: The population of an independant city-state on the edge of an expansionist empire came through the portal, accounting for the single biggest group to go through. Well actually the ruling class of this city-state knew that they needed a way out, and if you can't bring your servants with you, then what's the point?

What they found: They were quickly driven out of the first settlement by the esper group and now live on the plains where animal attacks are least common. They have been forced into honoring the democratic ideals that they used to pay lip service to now that their social lessers can just walk out and become homesteaders, resulting in one of the more egalitarian settlements on the plane.

Political philosophy: civilized egalitarian, idealized athenian democracy?

Animal: Dog/cat immigrants, cow/sheep locals

Mechanic: Flavorwise, I think unfinished works here, as a now democratized version of noble burial rites, or enchanters, to show their understanding of the fragility of their institutions

Esper
Why they left: The corrupt bureaucracy governing a remote island controlled by the expansionist empire. They absconded with most of their region's wealth, intending to set themselves up as a new ruling class. The whole group was about 10 bosses and a praetorian guard.

What they found: This group immediately seized control of the first settlement, making sure to hold the portal. It is theorized that they have managed to reactivate it, bringing in goods for trade and possibly troops. Because of this, they are more powerful than their numbers would suggest, as most of the other groups are running from something on the other side of the portal. At any rate, they do run the largest and safest (from the local fauna) city on the plane, which also functions as the main trading hub. They are the least expansionist, expecting that control of the portal will eventually allow them to control the others by proxy.

Political philosophy: civilized heirarchical, end game an-caps

Animal: Rat immigrants, crab/jellyfish/squid locals (we're saying the portal city is at the end of a penninsula)

Mechanic: Mirror represents this group's natural distrust. Groups of two are preferred, on the assumption that an individual is expected to be betrayed or to themself betray. When two work together, each can watch the other.

Grixis
Why they left: The second-in-command vampire who bought his passage by stealing an Object of Great Power belonging to his master in order to become a patriarch in his own right.

What they found: The vampire attempted to insinuate himself into the esper group, but was found out and exiled from the city. He has since taken up residence in a series of caves in some seaside cliffs across the bay from the portal settlement, making few improvements to the raw stone and alternately feeding on and vampirizing the local fauna.

Political philosophy: uncivilized heirarchical, Barbarism/Fascism (depending on how many new vampires there are)

Animal: Vulture/bat? immigrant, bird/lizard/fish locals

Mechnanic: Bloodrite represents the vampire's feeding and encouraging the growth of predator/prey species in the cave system

Jund
Why they left: An insect hive-mind who's efforts to expand out of the sewers have been thus far thwarted. The hive queen came alone, carrying a large brood of eggs.

What they found: After coming through the portal, the queen immediately flew off, hoping to find empty territory to colonize. A set of canyons was the closest she could find to the sewers she was accustomed to. Local predators and scavengers have made passively consuming refuse impossible, so the drones have grown more independant and capable of hunting and defending the hive, which has since grown to fill the canyon, creating a defensible rampart at the top. At the bottom of the canyon and base of the hive, they farm local fungus with carrion.

Political philosophy: uncivilized heirarchical (depending on how you look at hive power dynamics) moving towards civilized heirarchical or egalitarian, Authoritarian left?

Animals: Insect immigrants, lizard/fungus locals

Mechanic: Husk represents the hive's new found ability to choose between simple and thought-capable drones. The graveyard abilities that complement husk represent their continued sewer-recycling practice.

Naya
Why they left: A tribe of nomads living in the wilderness that has been driven off their roaming grounds and is now searching for new ones. They caught wind of the others leaving and forced their way into the portal by holding things up on the road. They brought the whole tribe, or as many as could be gathered, although their numbers had already suffered by that time.

What they found: They immediately set out looking for open land, but have found that they were not adapted to an environment in which they needed to forage more than they needed to raid. They have, as a matter of survival, largely abandoned their nomadic ways, and have become homesteaders. Though they still eschew high population density gatherings, there is a crossroads at the center of the hills where they live that serves as a civic center and trading post. They and the Jund faction are the only ones who regularly send out exploration parties.

Political Philosophy: unciviized egalitarian, anarcho-primitivism/lockean liberalism/ethnonationalism

Animals: Bear/fox immigrants, goat/antelope locals

Mechanic: Momentum represents the tribe's ability to expand and live off the fat of the land. Of all the groups, they best understand their new environment.

I originally thought of this before animal people was the thing to do, so I'm not sure how well animals fit into the world, especially since wild animals are such an important part of it. I included political philosophies in here as a way to compare with anshu's separation by class. Our main difference seems to be that I'm looking at these groups as distinct societies (although I look at Naya, Bant and Jund as nearly classless societies, or of societies comprised of a single class) instead of different parts of the same society. I think this sort of flavor work-up gives us room for more particulars to define each group.

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019

PMush Perfect posted:

What about Peasants, Nobles/Royalty, Foreign Agents, the Fey, and the Clergy?

Peasants: Naya
Clergy: Bant
Nobles: Esper
Foreign Agents: Grixis
Fey: Jund

Clergy is a good idea. Clergy is cool because the religious order is such a powerful political power in basically any ancient culture, and it's got this very distinct look to it.

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019

itsmekidney posted:

Clergy is a good idea. Clergy is cool because the religious order is such a powerful political power in basically any ancient culture, and it's got this very distinct look to it.

By the way, some other ideas I had, just to throw them out.

- The idea for a set I tried to make a long time ago, a Wild West meets X-Files sort of set, with spellslinger cowboys, strange cryptids, and reptilian robber barons. I hesitate to mention this one because I want to keep it for myself.
- A return to Kamigawa; years after the war, it has gone through rapid industrialization and become sort of like Kaladesh, mirroring real post-war economic growth in Japan. The spirits once again return, but the humans have much bigger weapons now, letting us do a mecha/kaiju set without stepping outside of anything Magic has technically done before in parts.
- Again, a flavorless set where everything is adorable. I really do think being adorable is something Magic hasn't done much yet.
- Speaking of adorable, an homage to the magical girl genre, filled with cute mascot animals and the like.
- To steal from the first part of Baisha's idea, a plane where there is no intelligent life is a cool concept. A set inspired by the Evolution board game of "Evo: Search for Eden" video game, a world entirely inhabited by animals in a pre-human world. It's different than the current cute animal set because the animals aren't anthro.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019


At long last, my submission:

The Levellers
🔴🟢🟡
"Was the land made to preserve a few covetous and proud men to live at ease and bag and barn up the treasures of the land from others, that these may beg and starve in a fruitful realm; or was it made to preserve all her children?"

The Levellers, guided by the writings and teachings of their founder Renard, seek to overthrow the aristocracy and reorganize society so that all may have an equal share in both the joys and necessary toils of life. Most of their adherents are from the laboring classes, though some of the low clergy and common-born professionals are sympathetic to one degree or another. Their iconic creature type is Ox (assuming we want to stick with anthros; otherwise it'd probably be Human).




Anshu fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Sep 22, 2020

BaiSha
Jul 9, 2012
I just saw the new post and it reminded me to post my jund cards. These are intended to fit in with the idea for jund that I posted earlier, my rarity slider doesn't work so I'll label these according to rarity.

Commons:

Some of these may be a little too complex for commons, I'm especially iffy on wandering hive-builder and I think the costs might be off on hive excavator
Uncommons:

We probably only want one f the grubs here, but I thought I would include both
Rares:

And the legendary leader card

girl dick energy
Sep 30, 2009

You think you have the wherewithal to figure out my puzzle vagina?
Hey, y'all, I've got A Lot going on right now, and I haven't exactly done the best job keeping things focused and moving even before that, so I think I'm going to step down as "project lead", as it were. If anyone else wants to pick up the torch, please do so, this is a cool idea and I'd hate to see it die.

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019
Do we maybe want to do some classic style contest stuff while we try to figure out a project head?

I sort of volunteer, and I say sort of because if I'm being honest this whole thing is sort of throwing me for a loop and I'm not really sure I know how to get things back on track. I have vision and drive and more importantly crave power and approval, but I'm not sure I'm the right person for the job.

BUT -- what I do know is I'm really craving some magic card making, and while I feel like the current set stuff has left me creatively spent, I want to make Magic cards so dang bad.

BaiSha
Jul 9, 2012
I was sort of hoping we would get a big design document and then let the regular contests flow from there, and I think that's possible if we can iron out a few things.

We have shard mechanics mostly figured out, and if Pmush releases the results of the last vote we should have all the factions mechanics done. We've had some discussion on shard strategies/draft archetypes but it seems like that's not been a major priority in the thread. It seems like the biggest roadblock we're hitting is faction flavor, and I think the main reason it is such a hold up is that it sort of needs to be all of a piece in order to work. I would suggest we get a solid set of guidelines for these three things (set organization, draft archetypes, set flavor) and then move on to one or two card contests (monocolored commons that fit into 3 shards, signpost uncommons, pushed mythics for commander, dual land/mana rock cycles, etc) and we can fill out the set.

On the other hand, if flavor is our stumbling block, maybe we set up some of those single card contests and revisit flavor when we have some mechanical stuff to help inform our decisions. Either way, that last card dump was a lot more work than I was expecting and there are only a few cards in that group that I think are actually interesting, I would definitely be happy to get back to polishing up a single design.

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019

BaiSha posted:

I was sort of hoping we would get a big design document and then let the regular contests flow from there, and I think that's possible if we can iron out a few things.

We have shard mechanics mostly figured out, and if Pmush releases the results of the last vote we should have all the factions mechanics done. We've had some discussion on shard strategies/draft archetypes but it seems like that's not been a major priority in the thread. It seems like the biggest roadblock we're hitting is faction flavor, and I think the main reason it is such a hold up is that it sort of needs to be all of a piece in order to work. I would suggest we get a solid set of guidelines for these three things (set organization, draft archetypes, set flavor) and then move on to one or two card contests (monocolored commons that fit into 3 shards, signpost uncommons, pushed mythics for commander, dual land/mana rock cycles, etc) and we can fill out the set.

On the other hand, if flavor is our stumbling block, maybe we set up some of those single card contests and revisit flavor when we have some mechanical stuff to help inform our decisions. Either way, that last card dump was a lot more work than I was expecting and there are only a few cards in that group that I think are actually interesting, I would definitely be happy to get back to polishing up a single design.

I'm a firm believer that a bottom-up set means we don't need to confirm our set flavor until things are quite significantly more in place than they are now. Which actually leads to a really important question:


Here are the two things people seem to like:

- People seem mostly cool with revolution theme, with a few dissenters.
- People seem mostly cool with the set mechanics, with a few dissenters (tbh including me, but that's besides the point).


So the real question is which one we want to let go of for a bit. If we keep the revolution theme, I think it's obvious we need to switch to a top-down design, like Theros, with set defining cards like Akroan Horse. We could easily start designing cards with those themes in mind and fit our mechanics into those cards.

Alternatively, we can stop talking about the Revolution or the cute animals or whatever, and design cards based on a bottom-up design, with the mechanic identity being a shard set. This is the idea I like more despite not really liking most of the mechanics that won, because this way, like BaiSha suggested, we can start making "commons that fit into the shards" etc etc. We can create a design skeleton and start to fill it out, and then move things and scrap things and remake things as deemed fit.

BaiSha
Jul 9, 2012
If we're soliciting opinions, my preference is a bottom-up set. I think the best move for now is to either settle on a flavor and use what we have mechanically (unless we need to rethink mechanics) or agree to defer the flavor question until later. I'm pretty sure you were just using it as an example, but I think commons should be figured out near the end of the process, they need to support the big themes laid down in the uncommons and rares and because they are comparatively simpler cards, most of their design work is as carriers of flavor

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019


itsmekidney posted:

So the real question is which one we want to let go of for a bit. If we keep the revolution theme, I think it's obvious we need to switch to a top-down design, like Theros, with set defining cards like Akroan Horse. We could easily start designing cards with those themes in mind and fit our mechanics into those cards.
I prefer to think of it as zig-zag design, since the revolution theme was shaped by the mechanics we settled on.

itsmekidney
May 6, 2019

BaiSha posted:

If we're soliciting opinions, my preference is a bottom-up set. I think the best move for now is to either settle on a flavor and use what we have mechanically (unless we need to rethink mechanics) or agree to defer the flavor question until later. I'm pretty sure you were just using it as an example, but I think commons should be figured out near the end of the process, they need to support the big themes laid down in the uncommons and rares and because they are comparatively simpler cards, most of their design work is as carriers of flavor

It might surprise you to know Mark Rosewater believes the exact opposite thing. "If a theme doesn't work in your commons, it's not your set's theme." He highly advises making the commons before any of the other cards despite the temptation to go to the more exciting big stuff.

As a compromise, we could do the uncommons first and work from there, heh.

BaiSha
Jul 9, 2012
Let me amend that statement to "We should be sure of our themes before we start on commons". If we're designing in order to lock down a design skeleton then I think higher rarities make a better starting point.

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Nehru the Damaja
May 20, 2005

I've on-again off-again been working on a French Revolution set. After finding my old set file, I revisited a mechanic that's been a problem for me. Does Rumor, as seen here, feel like something people would want to use and be happy to use? I want it to be predominately on instants and sorceries, usually doing a lesser version of the spell's main effect in exchange for that effect being usable repeatedly and offering the ability to smooth draws. In exchange, doing so reveals to your opponent that you recently had a burn spell in hand and quite likely still have it.

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