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Ratios and Tendency posted:Are Neera and Rasaad's BG2 quests worth doing? I quit my first attempt at the EE's when it wanted me to collect Neera's cats... I have done Rasaad's quest once, and it felt like an absolute slog. The new NPCs have a lot more writing, but it's just... Not very captivating? I haven't done Dorn's quest, and Neera's wild magic camp in BG2 is just such a pants on head silly thing, on purpose, that it is not very interesting. There is some loot in the quests that might be worth your while, but as far as playing the game and reading the writing? Blech. At least with Neera you have the excuse that Edwin will absolutely refuse to co-operate with her in the party. And Edwin is just a fun time all around. "Have you nothing else to do but bother me?" No, Edwin, I don't.
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Jun 30, 2022 07:29
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Oh yeah, I think one of the Neera quest rewards is a +2 necklace that plays nice with other magic items, but it's a slog to get.
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Jun 30, 2022 17:24
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Dillbag posted:Oh yeah, I think one of the Neera quest rewards is a +2 necklace that plays nice with other magic items, but it's a slog to get. Doesn't her quest also net one of the two Stoneskin scrolls in the game? As an aside, it's sucks that Bealoth isn't in the later games in the series.
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Jul 1, 2022 03:23
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JustJeff88 posted:Doesn't her quest also net one of the two Stoneskin scrolls in the game? I think that's BG1, we're talking about her Wild Mage forest quests in BG2.
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Jul 1, 2022 04:24
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JustJeff88 posted:Abstracting HP is really hard. Sometimes I wish that D&D had used a split fatigue/luck/stamina/'fate' points vs health points system. A fair few other system do. That's essentially what Hit Points are, rules as written. From the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB: quote:To allow characters to be heroic (and for ease of play), So a character with 100 Hit Points doesn't have ten times as much blood in their body as a character with 10 Hit Points, they're just harder to take down in a fight for a bunch of reasons that are condensed into 'number bigger'. A character taking damage doesn't always mean they've been stabbed or blown up or melted, it can just mean they're that much closer to the wound that will actually incapacitate them. Korgan can run around with 1 HP because he's probably fine aside from some flesh wounds and a concussion; that next hit he'll take, though? that's going to be the arrow that gets him in the eye or the axe that bites into his torso. E: V This is correct, though, and incidentally also another area where 4th Edition excelled. Your ability to recover Hit Points was limited by your Healing Surges, representing your remaining stamina and will to fight. Magical healing was more about giving a PC a chance to rally and get back into the fight than it was explicitly regenerating physical injury. V Zeerust fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Jul 1, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 07:37
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That never made a ton of sense with healing spells though. If the people with higher hit points are just fighting better, then why do they need a cure serious wounds when a cure light wounds worked last year? Why is it even called cure serious wounds if they aren't wounded? Nothing makes sense with hit points, you just need to not think about it too hard because it's a poorly designed inconsistent abstraction.
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Jul 1, 2022 08:06
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I think Pillars did a pretty good job with that using Endurance/Health. It made more sense that you were getting physically worn down through encounters and were acquiring injuries.
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Jul 1, 2022 13:28
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Dillbag posted:I think that's BG1, we're talking about her Wild Mage forest quests in BG2. Oops! Mr. Prokosch posted:That never made a ton of sense with healing spells though. If the people with higher hit points are just fighting better, then why do they need a cure serious wounds when a cure light wounds worked last year? Why is it even called cure serious wounds if they aren't wounded? I was literally about to post this until I saw your post. HP by themselves are fine; the problem is the recover processes in place. If exchaustion and vulnerability to a killing blow is a factor, why in most editions of D&D to players not recover any HP ever apart from healing effects?
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Jul 2, 2022 20:38
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JustJeff88 posted:Multi-classes would be a lot better if they let the player just permanently stop advancing in one class when they hit the point of minimal return. No 'catch-up' like with dual-classing, and it would work with the logarithmic experience values in the game. No more experience sharing - one class stagnates and the other advances at normal speed. This would even work with the rare triple class. I did that with my svirfneblin thief/illusionist years ago and it worked very well; there simply wasn't a hugely compelling reason to level thief past 9. I feel that fighter... well, fighter/anything is fairly similar. This would be cool indeed. What I did to remove the utter boredom of dual classing was to play single class until I had enough XP for the dual class character and then edit the char to be dual, adjusting the original class's level to be the correct value. They could then receive all new XP in the dualled class. With the exponential leveling system, this basically boils down to getting another level in the original class before spending that xp on the dualled class. I think it's hilarious that the games are so hostile to dualling you even lose any xp you gained in the original class over the last level when you dual. So if 1000 xp got you to level 5 but you decided to dual at 1,500 xp while still level 5, you essentially lose those 500 xp. zedprime posted:God bless everyone posting NWN2 and Kingmaker builds to the internet because I sure as hell am not going to get those right. Yeah, for sure. But even then it's not very fun because of what Ginette says here. Most Kingmaker build guides are rife with 1 to 3 level dips that synergize somehow with the main build. If I don't want to know enough of the details to make those builds myself, I sure as hell am not going to understand all the intricacies of why my char spent a year or 2 getting a couple of monk levels under their belt and how I can use them effectively. Though roahin's build guides avoid this problem - they're dual classed at most and usually just like a 2.5e dual where you switch over at some point. Ginette Reno posted:That said the 3e style of multiclassing also lends itself to doing dips into classes for just the frontloaded abilities like taking one level of fighter for martial proficiencies etc. I'm not sure I'm a big fan of that style of multi class progression. Prestige classes do fix a lot of the problems but not all of them. Replaying BG1 recently through to the end made me like 2.5e's build simplicity. I'd rather use it than any of the games based on 3/3.5e though I must have understood those games at some point in my life - just don't have the patience to learn all that again. E: I was days and pages behind apparently.
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Jul 2, 2022 20:38
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v1ld posted:This would be cool indeed. 1) Thank you 2) That's a very sensible in-game way to get around a bad system.
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Jul 2, 2022 20:39
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What I meant to say about you losing unspent XP on dualling is that rule is explicitly there to prevent you from doing what I was doing with the save editor. If you could spend all unspent XP at the time of dual classing then it would be so much nicer all around. Say you want to be a Thief 6 -> Mage dual, you'd need 20,000 XP for Thief 6 and another 60,000 XP for Mage 7. If the game let you spend XP at the time of dual, you could get to Thief 6 and stay there until you had 80,0000 XP and then dual to spend the unspent 60,000 XP. That would be so much more ... humane? But no, you lose that 60,000 XP as soon as you press the dual button. So you have to save edit to get the same effect. This may not be a difficult mod to make: don't zero out XP at dual class time. That simple change would make duals so much nicer. E: Should point out that you don't have to wait until you have enough xp for the full T6 / M7. You could for eg dual at 40K xp and spend the 20K to get to Mage 5 and play as a pure mage for 2 levels. 40K is where you'd normally be Thief 7, but you decided to make a life change and be a mage instead when you realized how the tenure system made it hard for you find open positions in your current profession. But you're not some fresh out of school graduate, you pick up your new profession pretty quickly. v1ld fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 20:56
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3rd edition was bad. You either go - lots of classes but with limited customization or - high customization options for fewer classes A huge amount of classes, kits and prestige classes on top of feat selection and prerequisites blah blah just makes for an overcomplicated and cheesy system that is impossible to balance.
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Jul 2, 2022 23:52
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I don't care if a system is unbalanced, the problem with 3E was needing a loving diploma in order to create a character that was even viable past a point. There were just so many dead ends in that maze of a system.
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Jul 3, 2022 04:08
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bike tory posted:I don't care if a system is unbalanced, the problem with 3E was needing a loving diploma in order to create a character that was even viable past a point. There were just so many dead ends in that maze of a system. I never really played AD&D or earlier. I loved 2e for nearly a decade despite all of its jank. I'm sorry that I missed 4e and I'm not too down on 5e, but I have never regretted missin out on 3/3.5. I thought that 2e was too complex and the character building was too silly (dual-classing etc) until I saw 3e - that put things in perspective.
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Jul 3, 2022 04:18
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JustJeff88 posted:I never really played AD&D or earlier. I loved 2e for nearly a decade despite all of its jank. I'm sorry that I missed 4e and I'm not too down on 5e, but I have never regretted missin out on 3/3.5. I thought that 2e was too complex and the character building was too silly (dual-classing etc) until I saw 3e - that put things in perspective. When playing NWN 2 I looked up character builds because I barely understood 3.5 and didn't want to fumble through it, and almost every powergaming class was a mix of at least 3 classes. I had to actually search for one that specifically said "viable from level 1 to 30 to play the game" instead of just whatever excel calculated mess someone figured out would make the most powerful level 30 epic character.
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Jul 3, 2022 05:25
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What turned me off the NWN2 power gaming was the constant need to craft new weapons at every level up or whatever
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Jul 3, 2022 05:29
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bike tory posted:I don't care if a system is unbalanced, the problem with 3E was needing a loving diploma in order to create a character that was even viable past a point. There were just so many dead ends in that maze of a system. I mean balance in terms of designing challenges for the player, like IWD2 is expecting players to be a deep gnome dipping 1 monk for 8 AC and then putting all level ups into dex or whatever other horseshit and if you just have a fighter with heavy armor it doesn't work. In BG players will roll 18-19 dex, there's gauntlets of 18 dex and potions of 18 dex so that's what you design your encounters around.
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Jul 3, 2022 07:01
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Class-building in 2e isn't nearly as complicated and full of pitfalls and overpowered options as in 3e; I think that we can all agree to that.
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Jul 3, 2022 08:16
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Grossly unbalanced systems are still a problem even in singleplayer because A) it incentivizes homogenized builds and B) it makes it harder to design good encounters and a satisfying progression arc. In conclusion 3.5 and Pathfinder are terrible, terrible systems and we live in the darkest timeline of how the TTRPG scene shook out.
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Jul 3, 2022 11:16
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Captain Oblivious posted:Grossly unbalanced systems are still a problem even in singleplayer because A) it incentivizes homogenized builds and B) it makes it harder to design good encounters and a satisfying progression arc. Yeah it’s just especially bad in 3e because having intentionally bad options so you could figure them out and feel good about avoiding them was an explicit design goal. This was exacerbated by a lot of the designers being trash at identifying what was good in their own systems.
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Jul 3, 2022 11:24
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Ya cannot get better than the stability multiclasses provide.
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Jul 3, 2022 12:02
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bike tory posted:I don't care if a system is unbalanced, the problem with 3E was needing a loving diploma in order to create a character that was even viable past a point. There were just so many dead ends in that maze of a system. While there are a few ways to build viable characters from piecing together isolated benefits from however many separate classes and prestige classes, 3E had a reliable way to always produce a strong character: just go all in on one of the spellcasting classes. Even by the end of the game line, full Druid was considered one of the strongest builds.
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Jul 3, 2022 12:57
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Schwarzwald posted:While there are a few ways to build viable characters from piecing together isolated benefits from however many separate classes and prestige classes, 3E had a reliable way to always produce a strong character: just go all in on one of the spellcasting classes. And still is. And stays viable no matter your level. Shape changing also provides for amazing levels of inventive solutions during actual play.
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Jul 3, 2022 13:13
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I grew up playing AD&D, and when 3rd edition came out I was very confused. Now, though, I'm really glad I'm comfortable with it because I've had great fun playing games like Temple of Elemental Evil, IWD2 and both Pathfinder games. I don't "dip" at all, and I've managed to make viable characters every single time in each game. I think the closest I get to dipping is when I mistook my ranger character for the rogue and didn't realize until an hour or so later that now I have one rogue and one ranger with a single rogue level in my latest run at ToEE. It was an inadvertent dip that nevertheless gave me a second chance open locks and disarm traps if the hobbit fucks up. I never played 4th edition and 5th is ok, but I prefer the options on level up from 3.5 to those in 5th and even to AD&D at this point. Sure the Pathfinder message boards are overwhelmed with posts by people arguing about the best way to gain a +1 on BAB at 13th level using seven different classes and OH MY GOD HOW CAN YOU GO WITH RAPIER INSTEAD OF FALCHION DON'T YOU KNOW YOU CAN GET THE CRIT CHANCE TO 80% IF YOU'RE NOT A NOOB?" I guess what I'm saying is that those sorts of things don't appeal to me on an aesthetic or "roleplaying" level, but they also aren't necessary to enjoy the games. All of that said, I would do many things, and I mean unlawful things, for someone who put out a new game using the infinity engine and AD&D rules.
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Jul 3, 2022 13:48
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I played through NWN1 as a single class bard and it was pretty broken at a certain point. Just summoning a bunch of monsters and then using bard song to rotate buff and debuff songs due to the extended song feat.
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Jul 3, 2022 13:52
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Vargatron posted:I played through NWN1 as a single class bard and it was pretty broken at a certain point. Just summoning a bunch of monsters and then using bard song to rotate buff and debuff songs due to the extended song feat. Part of the problem with NWN1 is that there is almost never a fighter of equivalent level attacking you. That would put an end to most Bards, rogues, and unbuffed mages. There are some sorcerers that are a major pain in the rear end though.
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Jul 3, 2022 16:09
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I knew that 3e/3.5e/Pathfinder had major issues when they started developing tier systems and people recommended that they only allow tier 3 and 4 (for example) characters because anything higher was too good and lower was near useless. Then I saw the number of staple classes in both the too-high and too-low tiers and I realised how badly this house of cards was leaning.
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Jul 3, 2022 17:14
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rojay posted:I grew up playing AD&D, and when 3rd edition came out I was very confused. Now, though, I'm really glad I'm comfortable with it because I've had great fun playing games like Temple of Elemental Evil, IWD2 and both Pathfinder games. I don't "dip" at all, and I've managed to make viable characters every single time in each game. Yeah single class builds in the pathfinder games are extremely powerful. Though spell nukers pretty much need some sort of draconic bloodline dip to keep up and contribute on the harder difficulties
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Jul 3, 2022 21:48
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3.5 and Pathfinder both had a stated goal to make single classes viable again. They both succeeded, which also created many more dips because of just the undesignable chaos of how classes and feats fit together. You can run a team of single classes and keep up with CR in Pathfinder through your campaign. But you can also play like Dungeon World (or design computer games closer to Disco Elysium) and other story generative rule sets if you are not interested in class building and encounter building minutiae.
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Jul 3, 2022 22:23
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Perfect Potato posted:Yeah single class builds in the pathfinder games are extremely powerful. Though spell nukers pretty much need some sort of draconic bloodline dip to keep up and contribute on the harder difficulties I guess that's how I see it. There's complexity if you want it, but if you're not playing on the hardest difficulty, you can finish the game with a single class character even if you choose suboptimal feats. If you like playing characters with three or four classes, and focusing on complex feat interactions, go for it. It's a single player game, and as long as I can complete it without doing advanced math I'm ok if my characters could be better.
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Jul 4, 2022 03:29
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Is this thread working as a more generic isometric RPG thread, or is it strictly Infinity Engine? I'm looking for some thoughts on Serpent in the Staglands in case anyone played it, but the RPG thread seems to be about discussing JRPGs and fighting over anime.
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Jul 4, 2022 09:57
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FishMcCool posted:Is this thread working as a more generic isometric RPG thread, or is it strictly Infinity Engine? I'm looking for some thoughts on Serpent in the Staglands in case anyone played it, but the RPG thread seems to be about discussing JRPGs and fighting over anime. The thread you’re looking for is the old school CRPGs thread, might be in Retro Games. E: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3473537
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Jul 4, 2022 14:34
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General rpg thread is fine for talking about western RPGs too, but yeah, it's a lot of jrpg talk mostly.
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Jul 4, 2022 14:38
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Arivia posted:The thread you’re looking for is the old school CRPGs thread, might be in Retro Games. Great stuff, thanks!
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Jul 4, 2022 14:59
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I've finally recovered from my post-Sandrah BG funk and I'm planning to go through the game again with this wish-fulfillment mod.
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Jul 7, 2022 13:38
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Surely that's not all! Or are you keeping it simple, after going through the entire thing with so many mods last time?
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Jul 7, 2022 17:46
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Rythian posted:Surely that's not all! Or are you keeping it simple, after going through the entire thing with so many mods last time? I installed a few other NPC mods but I don't want to get too crazy this time around.  I'll update you guys with some screenshots as I progress.
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Jul 7, 2022 17:50
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Vichan posted:I've finally recovered from my post-Sandrah BG funk and I'm planning to go through the game again with this wish-fulfillment mod. huh. interesting
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Jul 7, 2022 19:23
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Vichan posted:I've finally recovered from my post-Sandrah BG funk and I'm planning to go through the game again with this wish-fulfillment mod. this is neat
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Jul 7, 2022 19:25
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Sorry Khalid, a fighter/druid is better than a fighter.
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Jul 7, 2022 22:31
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