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Piell posted:If Nazi Germany had done it over half a century instead of a decade or two, would it make a difference to you? Would it have been better in some way? Or does the length of time a genocide take not actually make a difference whether it's a genocide or not? Also in my classes on holocaust, the teacher started with like Middle-ages and history of anti-semitism. I don't know if that kind of perspective makes historical sense because I'm not well versed in holocaust studies. I'm just saying that it isn't unusual view to see the holocaust as a result of millennia of history. Compared to that, half a century ain't a huge amount of time.
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May 18, 2024 17:41
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Skex posted:Also anyone have population numbers of Palestinians from 1968 to today? If I were to ask if there were more Jews today than in 1938, I would be perma'd (and rightly so!) as a Holocaust denying genocide supporter. Yet you're comfortable asking this quoted question right here in 2024.
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May 18, 2024 17:54
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What Nazi Germany did was monstrous, no one is denying that. What the comparison is that the Nazis employed engineering precision to murder innocent, hopeless people. I've been recently re-reading Primo Levi's book on the mass murder that happened at Auschwitz, because the Germans were determined to murder a bunch of people. It seems awful that Israel is now murdering a bunch of people, via starvation if by no other means, and it does not diminish the horror of the Holocaust from saying that there is something awful happening. No one should be denying access to food. You need that to live! I am not sure why this is controversial. Also, in case it isn't clear, gently caress the Germans, what they did was an affront to human society and should not be repeated anywhere. Kurt Vonnegut said so, and he was a nice enough dude.
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May 18, 2024 17:56
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Skex posted:
Mass media often focuses on the gas chambers. In reality most of the victims were killed by machine gun or firing squad. Intentionally focusing on the gas chambers and not the bullets allows Westerners to pretend that our militaries are not committing the same crimes. In the same way, modern genocides intentionally do not create accurate records because of a fear of being more directly compared with the Holocaust. They have forgotten that much of the evidence of the Holocaust comes from souvenir photos taken by the perpetrators.
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May 18, 2024 18:40
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A group can be both object of violence and perpetrator of violence. Identifying it as either does not make it essentially good or bad. Buying into dualistic framing is a problem. It lets right wing Israeli groups portray themselves as the objects of the Holocaust and thus that they and thus that their actions are “good.” Because they are in the object of violence category. It is the same with Hamas and the same reasoning is used about October. It’s also unnecessary. The Israelis are committing a genocide, it should be stopped and action should be taken to stop it. There is a Jewish writer whose name I cannot remember who went to Germany after reunification to try to figure out for himself why it happened. And (in paraphrasing because I won’t remember the exact words) what he ended up concluding was :The Germans are a kind and generous people that tried to exterminate my people. Anyway the point. Dualism a rhetorical tool. Most of us have seen it used before eg. “Axis of Evil” and know how it’s used to justify violence against out groups. I’ve seen it used in my family (by my grandparents generation) to explain and rationalize racist relatives. It’s also distraction and it’s useful to the powerful because it’s a distraction. One also doesn’t need it. Palestinians are dying of hunger: they should be fed. Civilians are being killed: that should stop. A genocide is occurring: that should be stopped. Dualistic framing is going to put people who agree about all those things in opposition to each other. Whose interest is it in? Is it effective (or alternatively what else is it effective for?)
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May 18, 2024 18:56
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uninterrupted posted:This is incorrect, holocaust is a generic term. Churchill referred to the genocide of the Armenians as a holocaust long before WW2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial posted:Holocaust denial is an antisemitic conspiracy theory that asserts that the Nazi genocide of Jews, known as the Holocaust, is a fabrication or exaggeration.
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May 18, 2024 19:17
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Nucleic Acids posted:You are no different than the average Holocaust denialist and you getting any position of authority is an embarrassment. No it's a really funny bit here in the forum that punishes you for jokes Elman posted:If you're gonna talk about how you can't possibly compare it to the Holocaust perhaps it's important to acknowledge that Nazi Germany was in fact trying to ethnically cleanse Eastern Europe in order to secure Lebensraum. They mass murdered 6 million Jews, but also many millions of Poles and Russians and other groups. Many others were forcefully relocated or sent to labor camps. The goal wasn't merely genocide, their ultimate goal was to secure German racial supremacy and ownership of Eastern Europe. Yeah exactly, I'm sure the Nazis would have been fine with the Poles and Slavs magically disappearing to emigrate somewhere else, but since that was impossible, well... "They're only killing them because they aren't leaving" doesn't make it better VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:26 on May 18, 2024 |
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May 18, 2024 19:23
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I can't loving believe that not only we have "this isn't a genocide because not enough children have been killed" but person with such outlandish claim was chosen to administrate this thread. Jesus F. Christ. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 18, 2024 19:54
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Szarrukin posted:I can't loving believe that not only we have "this isn't a genocide because not enough children have been killed" but person with such outlandish claim was chosen to administrate this thread. Jesus F. Christ. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 18, 2024 19:59
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Szarrukin posted:I can't loving believe that not only we have "this isn't a genocide because not enough children have been killed" but person with such outlandish claim was chosen to administrate this thread. Jesus F. Christ. I think it's important to recognize that IBMS is explicitly, by their own admission, anti-Palestine specifically. From earlier in the thread: Irony Be My Shield posted:Some people may not have been posting for a long time but I personally have posts going back to 2015 relating to major events and have been on the pro-Palestine side of every argument. Until today. It follows that if you're going to openly declare yourself anti-Palestine that it'd be difficult to square that stance with the ongoing genocide of Palestinians, and so would go to considerable rhetorical lengths to dismiss or downplay the genocide or the scale thereof, or to find ways to class the slaughter as something other than genocide (or, like nameless_steve, that the victims somehow deserve their slaughter). Unfortunately for Irony Be My Shield, these same rhetorical tactics have been used for decades by nazis trying to downplay or dismiss the murder of six million Jews by the nazis, so these sorts of dodges are easily spotted by anyone with even a passing familiarity with the arguments of nazi Holocaust denialists. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 18, 2024 20:10
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The slow ruination of a people is intentional because you can't fire up death camps anymore without becoming a pariah, so you create a large open-air prison and slowly strangle the population to death. Again, this whole "if Israel wanted to do it, they could do it fast" insults both the reader and the writer. It does nothing to address the fact that a majority of Israeli society has nearly the exact same views as the Nazis did (superior race, lesser people that must be eradicated in order for them to prosper). Get a new bit. This disgusting slop is barely worthy of twitter.
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May 18, 2024 20:26
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I think it's important to recognize that IBMS is explicitly, by their own admission, anti-Palestine specifically. From earlier in the thread: This is a post from October 8th and the phrasing is pretty clearly delineating being pro-palestine or not on specific issues/events and here the were pretty clearly talking about the events of the previous day. I don't love IBMS' posting or their being an IK of this thread but this is a pretty significant misrepresentation imo. Though watch them come back and clarify they meant in general after October 7th and I'll be wasting my breath.
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May 18, 2024 20:46
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Also, why do they even need to do it fast? While the Nazis obviously always wanted to exterminate Jews, the massive acceleration of the process via the Final Solution appears to have been a project of wartime urgency as their advance west and east suffered various setbacks. Israel seems to have all the time in the world to depopulate Gaza now it's decided to go full genocide - not like anyone actually seems inclined to stop them.
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May 18, 2024 20:51
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Wait, those of you saying that "holocaust" only ever refers to one and exactly one thing, have you really never heard the term "nuclear holocaust" used to describe the outcome of a nuclear war? In fact, the term "holocaust" was used as early as 1926 to describe the effects of a nuclear-like* weapon on Moscow in a novel by Reginald Glossop called The Orphan of Space. edit: Strictly speaking "holocaust" should only be capitalized as a proper noun when refering the THE Holocaust, but yeah. *I say nuclear-like weapon because nuclear weapons were not invented even as a sci-fi concept at that point, but something that appears in literature of the time is an "atomic" weapon - fully fictional weapons hypothesized by writers to somehow use the atomic physics that were newly-described at the time. This difference might be confusing given that the terms "atomic" and "nuclear" are colloquially used interchangeably, but the idea of nuclear fission chain reactions hadn't been developed even at the time that "holocaust" was used to describe the effects of weapons causing mass death by fire! So even the concept of a "nuclear holocaust" was late to the party! Obviously "Holocaust" is an apt term for THE Holocaust, which absolutely did happen as widely understood, but it's not a word that is without other uses and meanings. edit 2: Also JFC making someone an IK to troll people is dogshit moderation and I can't believe that was even considered let alone the actual decision BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 21:14 on May 18, 2024 |
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May 18, 2024 20:52
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Doesn't really matter when it was said, Oct 7th was done by Hamas, not "Palestine" as a collective. Not even just "Gaza". What does not being on the "pro-Palestine" side of the argument mean. Even if wikipedia were the authority on what words mean (lmao), it doesn't use the word Holocaust consistently to mean the mass murder of only the Jewish population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims quote:Holocaust victims were people targeted by the government of Nazi Germany based on their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, disability or sexual orientation. The institutionalized practice by the Nazis of singling out and persecuting people resulted in the Holocaust, which began with legalized social discrimination against specific groups, involuntary hospitalization, euthanasia, and forced sterilization of persons considered physically or mentally unfit for society. The vast majority of the Nazi regime's victims were Jews, Sinti-Roma peoples, and Slavs but victims also encompassed people identified as social outsiders in the Nazi worldview, such as homosexuals, and political enemies. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:59 on May 18, 2024 |
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May 18, 2024 20:54
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where’s the guy who was giddily saying the pier was gonna be done by today or there’s gonna be a reckoning within us circles by now
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May 18, 2024 21:01
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Kagrenak posted:This is a post from October 8th and the phrasing is pretty clearly delineating being pro-palestine or not on specific issues/events and here the were pretty clearly talking about the events of the previous day. I don't love IBMS' posting or their being an IK of this thread but this is a pretty significant misrepresentation imo. I think that post being made on October 8th specifically is why it's not a misrepresentation -- you'd think they'd specify Hamas, and not Palestine, or some other sort of qualifier. But instead they posted that because of 10/7 they are now no longer on the side of Palestine. IMO it's difficult to be more explicit without diving headfirst into the sort of rank, pro-genociode Islamophobia of eg. nameless_steve. How do you read it other than the insinuation that it is Palestine, collectively, that demands (as IBMS puts it) "the largest mass killing of Jews since the Holocaust"? VitalSigns posted:Even if wikipedia were the authority on what words mean (lmao), it doesn't use the word Holocaust consistently to mean the mass murder of only the Jewish population As long as we're using wikipedia for our scholarly discourse, there's also a pretty well-referenced wiki article about specifically this and the arguments about "holocaust" vs "The Holocaust" vs other names for it and their usages, including amongst scholars of the Holocaust/Shoah and its survivors e: completely forgot to actually post the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Holocaust Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 21:41 on May 18, 2024 |
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May 18, 2024 21:03
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Szarrukin posted:I can't loving believe that not only we have "this isn't a genocide because not enough children have been killed" but person with such outlandish claim was chosen to administrate this thread. Jesus F. Christ. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 18, 2024 21:05
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I think that post being made on October 8th specifically is why it's not a misrepresentation -- you'd think they'd specify Hamas, and not Palestine, or some other sort of qualifier. But instead they posted that because of 10/7 they are now no longer on the side of Palestine. IMO it's difficult to be more explicit without diving headfirst into the sort of rank, pro-genociode Islamophobia of eg. nameless_steve. How do you read it other than the insinuation that it is Palestine, collectively, that demands (as IBMS puts it) "the largest mass killing of Jews since the Holocaust"? You're right. I misread the word order previously and the positioning of the word events made me think the phrasing was much more equivocal than it was.
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May 18, 2024 21:06
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VitalSigns posted:Even if wikipedia were the authority on what words mean (lmao), it doesn't use the word Holocaust consistently to mean the mass murder of only the Jewish population My point was that the phrase "Holocaust denial" when used without additional clarification, is going to be assumed to be about the act committed by the Nazis. The post I responded to was accusing others of Holocaust denial. Without a clarification, when people say "the Holocaust", especially when it is capitalized like that, it refers to the Nazi act. Other things can obviously be a holocaust. I have only seen the phrase "Holocaust denial" used to refer to denial of the actions of the Nazis, which is also consistent with the Wikipedia page I posted. That's why I posted it in response to someone accusing someone else of Holocaust denial for downplaying (in the poster's mind) the ongoing genocide of the Palestinians by Israel. That's a very long explanation for something that seems obvious on it's face to me, but hopefully that clarifies for you. I feel like I should go outside and touch some grass now.
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May 18, 2024 21:21
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The word holocaust is a generic word for "destruction by fire" and has been used metaphorically for ethnic cleansing, nuclear war, etc. Anything you want can be a holocaust because there is no definition of it, it's just a common metaphor. The Holocaust refers to a specific historic event in WW2.
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May 18, 2024 21:40
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Skex posted:Pretending that the watered down definition of genocide which includes cultural erasure through education with the Holocaust and it's gas chambers used to murder children is at best sloppy use of language and at worst an intentional evocation of the very rationalizations of the anti-semitites that Jews deserved the Holocaust. This argument is garbage and useless, and it would be even if you weren't wrong about what the word "holocaust" means. You're essentially griping that mass killings to remove a population from land are only a holocaust if it involves gas chambers, ovens and cattle cars, otherwise it's just sparkling genocide. Creating a mountain of child corpses via engineered famine or Where's Daddy is not somehow less wrong than creating a mountain via gas chambers. We are not talking about Israel doing a "cultural genocide", we're talking about them actually killing people. BattleMaster posted:Wait, those of you saying that "holocaust" only ever refers to one and exactly one thing, have you really never heard the term "nuclear holocaust" used to describe the outcome of a nuclear war? Duke Nukem 3D taking on a real serious tone all of a sudden. Esran fucked around with this message at 21:46 on May 18, 2024 |
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May 18, 2024 21:42
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language is just words used in isolation. there is never surrounding context that makes one of several possible meanings clear. if your word describing an event does not instantly explain its meaning to everyone who reads it, it is useless
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May 18, 2024 22:39
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The actual capital H Holocaust, has lost all significance anyway as zionists continue to use it as justification for their atrocities; why must we hold such reverence for a term that's been weaponized to do another genocide against another people? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 18, 2024 23:37
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That is negating the atrocity the Germans perpetrated. Hitler and Himmler specifically agreed to murder all European Jews. Now, we can quibble about how ironic it is that Jews are massacring thousands of people, and letting even more to starve, but the Holocaust was a real thing, and it succeeded (for lack of a better term) in murdering millions of innocent people. What Israel is doing is atrocious, but their rhetoric doesn't invalidate the suffering of all those who perished in the Shoah.
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May 18, 2024 23:45
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Rappaport posted:That is negating the atrocity the Germans perpetrated. Hitler and Himmler specifically agreed to murder all European Jews. Now, we can quibble about how ironic it is that Jews are massacring thousands of people, and letting even more to starve, but the Holocaust was a real thing, and it succeeded (for lack of a better term) in murdering millions of innocent people. the only difference now is time frames. I’m sure after the genocide is over someone is gonna find a Wannasee conference type of document from the Israeli cabinet saying they want to kill every gazan too. You’re doing the same thing the other posters did but with a ‘there’s no document saying israel wants to genocide Palestinians unlike the shoah’
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May 19, 2024 00:00
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Is it okay to negate the 5 million non-Jews who were killed for equally insane and bullshit reasons in the same event? Because I'd rather not forget the Holocaust happened to them as well. This is all getting sidetracked in a deja-vu way though, so it might be better if we moved back to talking about what's actually happening right now in Palestine rather than circling around the moral drain our illustrious IK decided to unplug with his hateful bollocks.
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May 19, 2024 00:04
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skipmyseashells posted:where’s the guy who was giddily saying the pier was gonna be done by today or there’s gonna be a reckoning within us circles by now I don't know which guy you're talking about, but turns out he was factually correct about it being functional by today based on this reporting from yesterday that has already been posted in this thread: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz96d3dn9jro https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ays-2024-05-17/
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May 19, 2024 00:06
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Rappaport posted:That is negating the atrocity the Germans perpetrated. Hitler and Himmler specifically agreed to murder all European Jews. Now, we can quibble about how ironic it is that Jews are massacring thousands of people, and letting even more to starve, but the Holocaust was a real thing, and it succeeded (for lack of a better term) in murdering millions of innocent people. The last couple of posts preceding that statement came in the context of how the term Holocaust erased the experience of the Roma, homosexuals, people with disabilities and all others targeted by the Nazis. Contextualizing the Holocaust as a uniquely Jewish experience and also turning around and weaponizing the Holocaust as a shield to bat away criticism of Israel's own genocidal activity has actively caused harm to the legacy of the wholistic term of the Holocaust. The issue is not diminishing the suffering of those who perished in the shoah. The issue, however, is devaluing it as a unique and horrible experience that should never be repeated as it is... being repeated in spirit if not in direct execution.
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May 19, 2024 00:06
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apatheticman posted:The last couple of posts preceding that statement came in the context of how the term Holocaust erased the experience of the Roma, homosexuals, people with disabilities and all others targeted by the Nazis. The Nazis murdered many people. For being homosexual, for being Roma, and for being Jewish. As I have stated, , this is not an endorsement of anyone mass murdering people! Why would you assume it were? Does it need to be stated that the Nazis were bad people, and so all everyone murdering Palestinians today?
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May 19, 2024 01:00
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Your original argument was its negating. It is not.
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May 19, 2024 01:08
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apatheticman posted:The actual capital H Holocaust, has lost all significance anyway as zionists continue to use it as justification for their atrocities; why must we hold such reverence for a term that's been weaponized to do another genocide against another people? I don't think the whole debate about what can or can't be called a/the holocaust is very enlightening to begin with, just like discussions about whether the term apartheid should be applied to any regime that is not South African apartheid. This sort of reasoning, however, is just completely out of left field. There are terrible regimes all over the world that used or still use neutral or positive ideas and terms to justify atrocities, be it democracy, Islam, denazification, freedom, communism, you name it. Saying that those atrocities somehow make the terms and ideas themselves contemptible or insignificant is asinine.
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May 19, 2024 01:32
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Fair enough. This is a retreaded discussion. I don't think it's asinine, but I can see how the debate distracts from what is being done now.
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May 19, 2024 01:46
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skipmyseashells posted:where’s the guy who was giddily saying the pier was gonna be done by today or there’s gonna be a reckoning within us circles by now It’s done and aid started flowing. Slowly because they are testing out the logistics at first. I’m also never giddy.
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May 19, 2024 01:57
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All the aid flowing doesn't change the fact that America is still providing material and diplomatic support for the genocide. The Gazan who maybe possibly gets a ration tomorrow might get blown up the same day by an American bomb with full support of the American government.
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May 19, 2024 03:36
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All true. But there are people who will eat who wouldn't have been able to, and that's a good thing.
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May 19, 2024 03:43
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Skex posted:There is no Palestinian Holocaust because Holocaust refers to a specific historical event motivated by a global racist conspiracy theory that Jews are uniquely evil and thus must be exterminated to protect non-jews from their evil influence. Reagan called what Israel was doing to Lebanon a "holocaust".
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May 19, 2024 04:04
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DeadlyMuffin posted:All true. But there are people who will eat who wouldn't have been able to, and that's a good thing. The first delivery was mostly tents. Completely coincidentally, I'm sure, Israel needs more tents for the camp in which they are concentrating the civilians that they are driving out of Rafah. E: to be clearer, Israel needs more tents so that they can put forward a convincing enough 'plan to evacuate civilians from Rafah' that Biden can justify greenlighting them bombing Rafah to the ground.
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May 19, 2024 04:17
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I disagree with your entire framing, but also, tents are indirectly a meaningful reduction in the whole dehydration thing. It's also pretty good for displaced people to have access to shelter. HazCat posted:to be clearer, Israel needs more tents so that they can put forward a convincing enough 'plan to evacuate civilians from Rafah' that Biden can justify greenlighting them bombing Rafah to the ground. specifically, "Britain is delivering tents because the West has evil plans" is not a reasonable take and it is, helpfully, falsifiable. You have made a clear prediction: Biden is going to greenlight the destruction of Rafah after mostly-already-displaced people are evacuated into these despicable tents. There are several failure points here.
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May 19, 2024 04:24
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There was a point in time in which I'd agree that it was inappropriate or in poor taste or not really literally applicable to invoke comparisons to the Nazi Holocaust, but at this point if anyone can't see the parallels as Israel tries to starve and kill their way through their enforced ghetto in as massively disproportionate response to an uprising, it's just willful blindness. If they don't want their actions compared to the holocaust there's a really simple way for Israel to stop people from making those comparisons.
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May 19, 2024 04:37
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