|
Herstory Begins Now posted:There was a point in time in which I'd agree that it was inappropriate or in poor taste or not really literally applicable to invoke comparisons to the Nazi Holocaust, but at this point if anyone can't see the parallels as Israel tries to starve and kill their way through their enforced ghetto in as massively disproportionate response to an uprising, it's just willful blindness. If they don't want their actions compared to the holocaust there's a really simple way for Israel to stop people from making those comparisons. Agreed. Israel is conducting an industrialized mass killing against an effectively defenseless populace they have corralled into a literal concentration camp. The parallels are heavy and obvious and denying them is idiotic at best. punishedkissinger fucked around with this message at 04:42 on May 19, 2024 |
#
?
May 19, 2024 04:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 08:40 |
|
|
Yes, 88% of Palestinians supported Hitler, according to a 1941 poll done by Sara Sakakini. Nail Rat posted:Out of all that garbage I'll just once again quote the founder of Hamas - and this was after the year 2000 - in regards to Palestinians not wanting a single state for all religions Groovelord Neato posted:This is incredible even Israel tried to play it off like it's 1:2 I've never seen someone try to act like it's nearly 1:1. Civilian casualties were "best case" 75 percent of the dead early in the war (and that's if every man was a Hamas member) and likely over 90 percent at this point with famine taking hold. Israel estimates it's killed 15k fighters and 16k civilians. Hamas lying and trying to exaggerate the number of women and children killed, by double, was a deliberate defamatory effort to paint an alternate reality of Israel's campaign and an attempt to deflect from their own bloodthirsty, deliberate slaughter and rape of women and children on October 7. (And by Palestinian Fedayeen going back to the 1920's.) apatheticman posted:The actual capital H Holocaust, has lost all significance anyway as zionists continue to use it as justification for their atrocities; why must we hold such reverence for a term that's been weaponized to do another genocide against another people? Not only that, but if you look up the UN floor speeches of Ahmed Shukeiri (founder of the PLO, UN delegate before that, Amin Husseyni's personal assistant before that), you'll learn that that dumb, evil motherfucker tried to make the same argument, that the Holocaust was old news, waaaay back in the 1950's. Nissin Cup Nudist posted:So all the various different locals in Palestine generally coexisted in peace until the Europeans came and ruined everything? The Arabs of Palestine massacred Jews in 1220, 1517, 1660 and 1834, and then a bunch of times in the 1900's during the Mandate, so the word "generally" is doing a lot of work in this canard. *Generally,* Jews in Muslim countries were discriminated against as second-class "dhimmi." It was bad, but not as bad as Medieval Christians. https://www.amazon.com/Jews-Islam-Princeton-Paperbacks/dp/0691008078 This argument, that Jews required no sovereignty because they were treated just swell in our neck of the woods, was flawed when it was first made by MENA delegates to the League of Nations, but became comically outdated after the deplorable mistreatment and expulsion of Jews in MENA from 1945-1967.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 05:51
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:
Your source is a sixteen-year-old letter to the editor, from someone who has had an axe to grind with left-wing opponents of genocide for quite a while. Even then, there's a whole lot of context in that piece that you omitted in order to make this misleading claim: (emphasis mine) quote:Anne Karpf is right to attack the equating of Palestinians with Nazis by rightwing authors, using the sojourn of the Mufti of Jerusalem in wartime Berlin (Islamofascist slanders, November 4). However, it is simplistic to gloss over the alignment of the mainstream Palestinian Arab national movement with Germany which argued from the standpoint of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" in order to eject the British from Mandatory Palestine. quote:Israel estimates it's killed 15k fighters and 16k civilians. Hamas lying and trying to exaggerate the number of women and children killed, by double, was a deliberate defamatory effort to paint an alternate reality of Israel's campaign and an attempt to deflect from their own bloodthirsty, deliberate slaughter and rape of women and children on October 7. (And by Palestinian Fedayeen going back to the 1920's.) Why should we believe Israel's estimates over Gaza's? quote:Antizionists are the dumbest, evilest motherfuckers on the planet. Seriously. October 7 was plenty enough justification for everything that has happened since October 7. You know what, nevermind, I think we're done here.  e: Nameless_Steve posted:Do these people sound like they're 2 months into a genocide? Do their cheers resemble those of concentration camp inmates? Do those missiles look like they're defenseless? You would doubtlessly be making the same argument about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943. Majorian fucked around with this message at 06:07 on May 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 06:03
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Antizionists are the dumbest, evilest motherfuckers on the planet. Seriously. October 7 was plenty enough justification for everything that has happened since October 7. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 06:04
|
|
|
punishedkissinger posted:Agreed. Israel is conducting an industrialized mass killing against an effectively defenseless populace they have corralled into a literal concentration camp. The parallels are heavy and obvious and denying them is idiotic at best. Do these people sound like they're 2 months into a genocide? Do their cheers resemble those of concentration camp inmates? Do those missiles look like they're defenseless? Jean Paul Satre posted:“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 06:05
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Antizionists are the dumbest, evilest motherfuckers on the planet. Seriously. October 7 was plenty enough justification for everything that has happened since October 7.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 06:07
|
|
|
just permaban the guy so sa can brag it's funded by zionists
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 06:15
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Antizionists are the dumbest, evilest motherfuckers on the planet. Seriously. October 7 was plenty enough justification for everything that has happened since October 7. 233 Palestinian citizens were murdered in 2023 prior to October 7. I'm curious on what degree of retaliation you personally feel that would justify, if 700 or so dead civillians on October 7 merits 35,000+ dead Palestinian citizens and 60% of Gaza razed to the ground.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 06:18
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Do these people sound like they're 2 months into a genocide? Do their cheers resemble those of concentration camp inmates? Do those missiles look like they're defenseless? Gazans have been starved, killed, maimed, had all their hospitals and schools destroyed and they see some light resistance from the outside world and Israel getting even a tiny taste of what they have to deal with and a Zionist pisses his pants.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 06:32
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:October 7 was plenty enough justification for everything that has happened since October 7. If nothing else, this part should certainly result in a ban, plus a permanent threadban.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 06:40
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Antizionists are the dumbest, evilest motherfuckers on the planet. Assuming you don't get obliterated before you can answer: What about opposing Zionism do you consider to be evil?
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 07:24
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:
That doesn't say they supported Hitler quote:In February 1941, Sari Sakakini, a Christian Arab, conducted a poll on behalf of the US consulate in Jerusalem and discovered that 88% of Palestinian Arabs favoured Germany over Britain. The British were the Palestinians' colonial overlords, wishing your colonial ruler's enemy would kick their rear end out of your country is not the same as personally being Hitler-loving Nazis. It's also not relevant to anything anyway. A lot of people in Eastern Europe initially welcomed the Germans and thought they were being liberated from the Soviet Union, that didn't make every single one of them a Nazi (some were, of course), and it certainly wouldn't justify mass murdering them, or their grand children today who weren't even alive to side with Germany in the 40s.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 07:28
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Antizionists are the dumbest, evilest motherfuckers on the planet. Seriously. October 7 was plenty enough justification for everything that has happened since October 7. Love to have Sartre quoted at me by a Nazi cheering for genocide and ethnic cleansing. DeadlyMuffin posted:All true. But there are people who will eat who wouldn't have been able to, and that's a good thing. I'm not going to say you shouldn't be happy about aid going into Gaza, but this kind of analysis is not good. Why were those people not able to eat in the first place? The blockade enforced by Israel and supported by the US. Esran fucked around with this message at 09:11 on May 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 08:48
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:International law concerning unlawful/unofficial combatants is a huge gray area, in general. This is just true. Sorry? absolutely refuse to believe this guy is real lmfao kooseh  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 08:48
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:
The fact that you got away with 6h probation instead of permaban is ridiculous. That's the laziest hasbarapoting I saw in this thread.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 08:53
|
|
|
bleh whatever (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 09:18
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:
This would all be very compelling if we didn't have any ability to translate tweets in Hebrew.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 10:25
|
|
|
i am going to kill each and every one of you (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 12:09
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:233 Palestinian citizens were murdered in 2023 prior to October 7. I'm curious on what degree of retaliation you personally feel that would justify, if 700 or so dead civillians on October 7 merits 35,000+ dead Palestinian citizens and 60% of Gaza razed to the ground. 11,150+. drat, good thing Hamas had restraint and killed around 1/10th of the people they were entitled to, at least according to nameless_Steve. Otherwise Israel might have overreacted. E: they actually killed fewer, since I counted the total number of claimed Israeli dead not just civilians. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 12:18 on May 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 12:13
|
|
|
Szarrukin posted:I can't loving believe that not only we have "this isn't a genocide because not enough children have been killed" but person with such outlandish claim was chosen to administrate this thread. Jesus F. Christ. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 12:20
|
|
|
koos i am going to kick your rear end
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 12:25
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:That doesn't say they supported Hitler Shocked to see the zionest genocide cheerleader blatantly lying
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 13:03
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:
gently caress you, you disgusting piece of poo poo (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 13:56 on May 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 13:09
|
|
|
A hint of a growing political rift with Gantz trying to capitalise on Netanyahu's shaky standing with the global community and to offer an outlet for a more moderate, albeit still staunchly Zionist, position. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cekkz82gnzgo quote:Mr Gantz set an 8 June deadline for a plan to achieve six "strategic goals", including the end of Hamas rule in Gaza and the establishment of a multinational civilian administration for the territory. I am not sure what in practical terms Gantz's departure from the war cabinet would mean, though. From what I gather, it would be basically symbolic, since he's a minister without portfolio, but there might be further political ramifications with protests and voting in the Knesset, I guess.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 13:49
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:
Oh gosh golly gee can you think of a single reason that Palestinians in 1941 might have a reason to favor Germany over Great Britain? That poll doesn't say what you claim it says. And why the gently caress should anyone believe Israeli numbers when they so regularly and demonstrably lie about everything else? gently caress you. Just come out and tell us how many Palestinian lives are worth an Israeli life in your opinion. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 14:04 on May 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 13:54
|
|
|
Elias_Maluco posted:gently caress you, you disgusting piece of poo poo Good points here. Read the whole thing.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 14:08
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Your source is a sixteen-year-old letter to the editor quote:You would doubtlessly be making the same argument about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in 1943. You mean these guys?  You do know the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was done by mostly Zionists? Mordecai Anielewicz? Did you know that we didn't butcher and rape German/European women and children by the hundreds and then come together as a community to celebrate it? You know we didn't have missiles to launch at Germany, right? Neurolimal posted:233 Palestinian citizens were murdered in 2023 prior to October 7. I'm curious on what degree of retaliation you personally feel that would justify, if 700 or so dead civillians on October 7 merits 35,000+ dead Palestinian citizens and 60% of Gaza razed to the ground. And the acceptable number of dead in the war is the minimum required to accomplish its objective of destroying Hamas. Based on Hamas' original roster of 40,000 militants, back in October, I promised myself I would reconsider my pro-Israel position if and when the total exceeded 100,000.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 14:15
|
|
|
Even if you cynically observed that might does make right... and even if you let all the current and historical brutality and injustice erode your humanity down to the barest apathetic nihilism... even then... wow. I'm sure there are many in Israel and the IDF who may hold these opinions. Probably too many in international newsrooms and statehouses. It just seems so tortured I can't recognize it as good faith, even as I see it all around. This might makes right, with us or against us attitude. As if you know the monster that lurks in your heart, and see it in everybody else- if only they would reveal their wickedness! Well I do wish you a "are we the baddies?" epiphany, but I'd be just as content if you received an airdropped flyer telling you to evacuate yesterday.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 14:24
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:Based on Hamas' original roster of 40,000 militants, back in October, I promised myself I would reconsider my pro-Israel position if and when the total exceeded 100,000. loving dying over here. This isn't quite as calm as the guy a while back who argued that the genocide was justified because the Jewish story had been five thousand years in the making, and muslims had been oppressing Jews for a thousand years, but it's extremely Hitler. Could you rephrase to more passive language? This could be Koos' greatest work. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 14:37
|
|
|
Wanted to give away two NYT articles. Israel’s Wartime Government Frays as Frustration with Netanyahu Grows  Protesters at a rally in Tel Aviv on Saturday. The banner reads, “Our sisters are dying for us to save them. Deal now.”Credit...Ilan Rosenberg/Reuters Benny Gantz, a centrist member of Israel’s war cabinet, presented Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with an ultimatum on Saturday, saying he would leave the government if it did not soon develop a plan for the future of the war in Gaza. (...) The Unpunished: How Extremists Took Over Israel  After 50 years of failure to stop violence and terrorism against Palestinians by Jewish ultranationalists, lawlessness has become the law. This story is told in three parts. The first documents the unequal system of justice that grew around Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. The second shows how extremists targeted not only Palestinians but also Israeli officials trying to make peace. The third explores how this movement gained control of the state itself. Taken together, they tell the story of how a radical ideology moved from the fringes to the heart of Israeli political power. (...) Dante80 fucked around with this message at 14:42 on May 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 14:38
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:
loving bullshit. Marek Edelman, one of leaders of Ghetto Uprising, was staunch member of Bund and hated Zionism. He wasn't the only one.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 15:05
|
|
|
While I don't think the article is wrong as such, the framing is very funny. It's basically the Mearsheimer view that Israel is wrong to do the genocide and oppress the Palestinians this hard, not because doing that kind of thing is inherently wrong, but because it hurts Israel (and importantly to Mearsheimer, American dominance). I think the view that the extremists "took over" Israel is also a little weird. I think this is well exemplified by this quote quote:How did a young nation turn so quickly on its own democratic ideals, and at what price? Any meaningful answer to these questions has to take into account how a half-century of lawless behavior that went largely unpunished propelled a radical form of ultranationalism to the center of Israeli politics. Did Israel ever have democratic ideals that were actually applied to anyone outside the herrenvolk? Maybe for while under Rabin? Even ignoring the crime inherent to the creation of Israel (the Nakba), the article spends quite a while outlining crimes Israel has committed, or allowed settlers to commit unpunished, against Palestinians. Those anecdotes cover decades. I think the thesis that there was ever a "good Israel" which has now been taken over by extremists and corrupted is a bit laughable. Ignoring the framing, the article is decent as a summary of how Israel has been terrible pretty much always. It also has some good details about the backgrounds of some of the criminals in charge of the current genocide. (thank you for the articles OP) Esran fucked around with this message at 15:36 on May 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 15:34
|
|
|
Nameless_Steve posted:About 200 of those "murdered civilians" were militants who died in "martyrdom operations" aka suicidal terrorist attacks. So when you call them "murdered civilians," you are majorly lying. ????  I know he's banned, but I'd love to know if he believes West Bank settlers are constantly set upon by suicide bombers.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 16:11
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:A hint of a growing political rift with Gantz trying to capitalise on Netanyahu's shaky standing with the global community and to offer an outlet for a more moderate, albeit still staunchly Zionist, position. Probably nothing, I think it's just Gantz posturing for the next election. Neurolimal posted:???? This is also the guy that thought that IDF snipers are as good as olympic gold medalist snipers (lol, lmao) so probably he's a dipshit that has no idea how the IDF works/what happens in the west bank at all. Alternatively, he could be an Israeli who drank the kool-aid so hard that he doesn't understand how the IDF actually works/what happens in the west bank.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 16:23
|
|
|
Miftan posted:Probably nothing, I think it's just Gantz posturing for the next election. I wouldn't expect too much out of the political genius who was tricked by this move: quote:On 20 April 2020, Gantz and Netanyahu announced that agreement on a unity government had been reached. The deal would involve both parties sharing power, and Gantz and Netanyahu taking turns being prime minister. Under the terms of the agreement Netanyahu was to be prime minister until October 2021, with Gantz serving as vice prime minister. After that time the men were to exchange roles.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 16:36
|
|
|
Esran posted:I wouldn't expect too much out of the political genius who was tricked by this move: I never said he was good at it, which is why it's such a transparent move.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 16:48
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:A hint of a growing political rift with Gantz trying to capitalise on Netanyahu's shaky standing with the global community and to offer an outlet for a more moderate, albeit still staunchly Zionist, position. Yeah, that's my read as well. On one hand I don't think it suggests any ebbing in the Israeli political class' appetite for genocide. On the other hand, if there's even a chance that it heralds gridlock in the Knesset over how to prosecute the campaign, then it's a good thing.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 18:45
|
|
|
Esran posted:I wouldn't expect too much out of the political genius who was tricked by this move: That was so funny. Literally that Simpsons joke with the trillion dollar bill. "Mr Ganz, I think we can trust the Prime Minister of Israel"
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 19:47
|
|
|
Yknow if direct comparisons to the Holocaust are too fraught, we can try some other historical references. We can start with Srebrenica and ask ourselves why Israeli officials have repeatedly declared that it doesn't count as genocide if you only deliberately massacre all the adult men but only some of the women and children
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 19:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 08:40 |
|
|
Szarrukin posted:loving bullshit. Marek Edelman, one of leaders of Ghetto Uprising, was staunch member of Bund and hated Zionism. He wasn't the only one. He wasn't the only one, there were a lot of anti-Zionists and non-Zionists, but a large portion of fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (aka Warsaw Ghetto Intifada) were Zionists. It seems plainly reminiscent of the situation in Gaza where you have parties and factions in obvious political rivalry or with wildly divergent worldviews and the life-or-death circumstances demand they collaborate or at least avoid sabotaging each other. In the case of the Warsaw Ghetto eventually it coalesced into two factions in uneasy collaboration: a larger left-wing coalition reflecting a whole spectrum of positions on Zionism (led by the Zionist Anielewicz and then the anti-Zionist Edelman) and a better-supplied right-wing paramilitary operation of hard-line Zionists. quote:Calling for a “national front” against the occupation, for the unity of all progressive forces on the basis of common demands and for armed antifascism, the manifesto echoed the pre-war Popular Fronts in its organizational methodology. Based off my googling I have no idea if self-identified Zionists made up the majority of Jews or combatants and I don't think there will ever be enough evidence because the people and many of their records were deliberately destroyed, and the heroes who survived to record their stories obviously had their own perspectives/political interests in what they remembered. And a person might revise their ideas about the necessity or justice of a Jewish state might as they fight in a Jewish guerilla army against an anti-Jewish state, in combat-comradery with people who believe very different things. So I don't think the user's claim that most of the Warsaw Ghetto combatants were Zionists is justifiable unless they have some source they should've cited, and either way, whether a political movement is embraced by 70% vs 30% of fighters in a heroic armed struggle, that says basically nothing about the merits of that movement 80 years later when it's now being applied by different people on another continent. But I think it's an interesting example of how coalitional politics work in the context of a desperate revolt launched from a ghetto under seige, and I'd be very interested to see someone compare the political economy described in this piece to the political economy in Gaza throughout the lifetime of Hamas. Edelman thought the parallels between the two were very obvious. It's from that perspective that he wrote a letter urging the Palestinian resistance to stop using suicide attacks or targeting civilians and to be ready to make concessions in pursuit of peace. It caused enormous fury in Israel because even in his moralizing he engaged the Palestinian forces, not the Israeli ones, as his comrades. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:34 on May 19, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 20:00
|
|
