|
Wonder what Nameless Steve would say about a Nazi party member visiting Mandatory Palestine and having a coin commemorating the occasion. https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5072424,00.html
|
#
?
May 19, 2024 21:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 11:56 |
|
|
Szarrukin posted:loving bullshit. Marek Edelman, one of leaders of Ghetto Uprising, was staunch member of Bund and hated Zionism. He wasn't the only one. But I suspect the person linking to the Israeli government knockoff Rotten.com gore site (without nsf warning BTW mods) which tried to launder photos of dead Kurdish women fighters as raped rave attendees might not be arguing in good faith!
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 00:17
|
|
|
More piers news stories: https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/5/19/desperate-scenes-as-gaza-aid-trucks-arrive-from-us-floating-pier I would guess by the end of next week we will be getting information about the rate of goods actually flowing in. But sea state gets up to 3 on Friday next week. https://www.tide-forecast.com/locations/Ashdod/forecasts/latest I’m guessing it’ll be down Friday through Monday unless that forecast changes
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 01:46
|
|
|
Another organization that reported mass sexual assaults on Oct. 7 continues to walk their claims back, now that it's too late to matter. https://x.com/ryangrim/status/1791943615570223496
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 04:06
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:More piers news stories: Meanwhile, the Washington Post has an update on the situation in Gaza and the pier as well: quote:Famine is believed to be prevalent in areas of Gaza. Desalination plants are offline, with fuel scarce and Israel having razed swaths of the territory’s civilian infrastructure. As a result, clean water is in desperate demand. People in Gaza are living on less than two liters a day, according to the United Nations. Consider that the United Nations believes that people need at least 7.5 to 15 liters each day for consumption and sanitation in crisis situations, and 70 liters under normal conditions. I'm sorry, but it's performative. The aid coming in through the pier is not enough, it's being delivered straight to the Israelis for further distribution, and the IDF are the ones in charge of security for the pier. For a project that's supposedly all about getting as much aid to the people of Gaza as possible, it's a piss-poor job being done of it. Yes, it is an impressive feat of engineering to be able to plonk a pier down anywhere in the world. But the effects of the pier are by the administrator of USAIDs own admission inadequate without the land-crossings, the closing of which was what the pier was supposed to circumvent in the first place!
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 08:40
|
|
|
it's a potentially significant amount of aid, but the really important thing as basically everyone is emphasizing is that Israel needs to end it's de facto blockade of Palestine bunch of UN officials have been releasing increasingly urgent appeals to get Israel to reverse course as they've all but completely closed the crossings since may 10th. like an average of 0-20 trucks of aid per day has been going in since then, which represents 0-2% of the daily aid pre-october 7th. it's an unbelievably dire situation
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 10:22
|
|
|
Waiting to see if Israel allows enough food in to the concentration camp, because Israel has been preventing food coming into the concentration camp, is absolute brain rot. This is a literal genocide and we're getting daily updates on their fake pier because it allows people to pretend there isn't one. What the actual gently caress?
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 11:26
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/IntlCrimCourt/status/1792511246769570084
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 12:03
|
|
|
Hell yeah
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 12:10
|
|
|
Hope they loving follow through and actually get Netanyahu to face some consequences. And no, I don't want to hear any "narrators voice" takes that they did not or whatever. gently caress that guy forever, there's no Hell bad enough for him to ever face.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 12:23
|
|
|
They're incorrectly seeking to charge Hamas for fighting back against their slow genocide by the occupation forces. It's not all good news, this will be ammo twisted to support the genocide.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 12:26
|
|
|
Bald Stalin posted:They're incorrectly seeking to charge Hamas for fighting back against their slow genocide by the occupation forces. It's not all good news, this will be ammo twisted to support the genocide. What's incorrect about it? I don't think war crime law permits war crimes on the basis that your military is the weaker party or on the basis that your enemy are themselves committing horrible crimes. And taking hostages is a war crime. The ICC seems to be doing its job, so far as I can tell, 100% correctly, except for the part where it has no power to arrest anyone. If in the end only Hamas leadership is arrested, so they're on trial and Israeli leadership isn't, then that'll be an obvious injustice, because Israeli war crimes have amounted to far far far greater massacre and humiliation. It would be the ICC acting as a peacetime weapon of the victorious military which I think is a real problem with a court that can basically only put defeated leaders on trial. But in practice I can't imagine any of these people actually being handed over to the ICC.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 12:44
|
|
|
Hamas did nothing wrong. That's what's wrong about it. It's like saying Ho Chi Minh, Mao or Fidel are criminals. Israelis deserved everything that happened.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 12:46
|
|
|
I strongly recommend reading the full statement. https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state quote:Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Diab Ibrahim Al-Masri (Deif), Ismail Haniyeh It's unlikely this will have much practical effect on the leaders - Qatar isn't a signatory and since Hamas is designated as a terrorist group in many countries their leaders probably weren't planning to move around much - but it will make it a lot harder to deny the atrocities Hamas committed at the start of the war. I suppose it might also have implications for power sharing post-war in a scenario where the Hamas leadership survives - since the de jure Palestinian leadership is a signatory to the ICC it will be difficult for them to justify them power-sharing with wanted war criminals in future. quote:Benjamin Netanyahu, Yoav Gallant I would love to live in the alternate world in which these five men are prosecuted for these crimes. In practice it seems extremely unlikely any of them will face justice - even if Israel ends up capturing the leaders of Hamas in Gaza they will probably subject them to a show trial within their own country rather than hand them over.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:01
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:What's incorrect about it? This is not a war between two states. It's a rebellion by concentration camp (increasingly: death camp) inmates against the people running that camp. All violence in this conflict is directly caused by Israel's refusal to release those inmates. Every single death in this war is their fault. Even detached from all morality and discussion of what Israel deserved or did not deserve (that gets into morality, and so it is easy for people to disagree with), it is clear that Israel has caused everything that has happened. To be clear, this doesn't mean that individual Israelis deserved the attacks. It means Israel caused those attacks to happen, so the blame rests with their own government. Irony Be My Shield posted:the ICC sees the accusations of widespread sexual violence (...) as credible. All the evidence is just out of frame. Esran fucked around with this message at 13:13 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:10
|
|
|
Bald Stalin posted:Hamas did nothing wrong. That's what's wrong about it. It's like saying Ho Chi Minh, Mao or Fidel are criminals. Israelis deserved everything that happened. If believe war crimes aren't bad when they happen to civilians you dislike then you are going to be disappointed by the ICC doing its job correctly. What did you expect? The accused war crimes here include some things Hamas obviously did/is doing ("Taking hostages as a war crime") and some things that are ambiguous ("Rape and other acts of sexual violence as crimes against humanity"). I'm sure that you're only defending the stuff they obviously did, and that toward the alleged organized sexual violence you'd never say anyone deserved that, just that it didn't happen at all or wasn't organized in a way where Hamas as a whole is responsible. Right? Correct me if I'm wrong here. Esran posted:This is not a war between two states. It's a rebellion by concentration camp (increasingly: death camp) inmates against the people running that camp. If you have a bunch of guys shooting guns and missiles at each other, I'd call that a war. It's a rebellion by the residents of this prison-reservation that was successful enough to turn into an actual war, like the wildest aspirations of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. Maybe "armed conflict" is the pedantically correct term I dunno. quote:By the legal doctrine of "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes", it is weak of the ICC to blame both sides. This isn't actually a legal doctrine followed by the ICC. You can say "wow, this is hosed up, in my heart I believe there is such a thing as a war crime in self defense" but the ICC is not doing its job incorrectly because it disagrees with you. quote:All the evidence is just out of frame. They describe the evidence they used: quote:My Office also submits there are reasonable grounds to believe that hostages taken from Israel have been kept in inhumane conditions, and that some have been subject to sexual violence, including rape, while being held in captivity. We have reached that conclusion based on medical records, contemporaneous video and documentary evidence, and interviews with victims and survivors. The problem with this statement/mode of prosecution I think is not that it lists crimes committed by Hamas but that it doesn't include certain Israeli crimes including apartheid, for which hundreds/thousands/hundreds of thousands of Israelis can be held responsible. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 13:30 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:10
|
|
|
Bald Stalin posted:Hamas did nothing wrong. That's what's wrong about it. It's like saying Ho Chi Minh, Mao or Fidel are criminals. Israelis deserved everything that happened. Hey how about you get hosed? I lost friends in that attack who didn't deserve to die and were against the occupation but unfortunately not everyone born in Israel has the means to just leave. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:11
|
|
|
I believe Hamas has said before that they're willing to defend themselves at the ICC if Israel is charged as well. Regardless of how likely you might consider that happening, it speaks to the fact that this is a unilateral victory; Western countries already consider Hamas to be terrorists who are breaking laws and doing war crimes, while Israel has much more to lose in an international court declaring that they've committed genocide. It undercuts an argument against the ICC being made (that it's turning a blind eye to Hamas) without changing much, not surprised that they'd do it.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:22
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:the ICC sees the accusations of widespread sexual violence and mass murder on October 7th as credible. What part of your quote says this?
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:23
|
|
|
Miftan posted:Hey how about you get hosed? I lost friends in that attack who didn't deserve to die and were against the occupation but unfortunately not everyone born in Israel has the means to just leave. Hamas did NOTHING wrong. I'm sorry your friends that were in an occupied territory that was doing genocide got caught up in it though. To clarify, as someone living in a settler colony, I don't consider myself Australian. Australia is a settler colony. If my comrades who feel the same died in an uprising against our colony I wouldn't say they were Australians. Does that make sense? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Bald Stalin fucked around with this message at 13:26 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:23
|
|
|
You can argue that Oct 7 was inevitable with Israel's treatment of Palestinians, and even that Oct 7 wasn't uniquely abhorrent compared to the average military casualty ratio, without excusing dead civilians IMO. You can recognize that a military's operation is justified without also arguing that it's okay when civilians are killed. We do it all the time with waves at every military/resistance group in existence. As for the ICC charges: in a vacuum without political pressure, I believe that Hamas could successfully argue against the charges of sexual assault, and scapegoat lower generals for the civillian deaths. It doesn't exist in a vacuum though, so in the event that they do end up at the Hague I imagine the US would put unfathomable pressure on them to sentence both Israeli and Palestinian leaders (if not Palestinians alone).
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:32
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:This isn't actually a legal doctrine followed by the ICC. You can say "wow, this is hosed up, in my heart I believe there is such a thing as a war crime in self defense" but the ICC is not doing its job incorrectly because it disagrees with you. The argument I'm making is not that war crimes are suddenly cool and good when Hamas does them. It's that responsibility for those crimes rests with Israel, because they created and maintain a situation in which Palestinians either resist, or lie down and die. And obviously I was making a joke, I don't expect the ICC to actually follow the doctrine I just made up.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:39
|
|
|
Bald Stalin posted:To clarify, as someone living in a settler colony, I don't consider myself Australian. Australia is a settler colony. If my comrades who feel the same died in an uprising against our colony I wouldn't say they were Australians. Does that make sense? It sounds like you're an Australian who copes with being the beneficiary of settler-colonialism by way of saying "No TRUE If you think civilians lose their right to live if they have the wrong national identity or reside within the borders of a criminal state, the whole ICC process is basically designed to upset you. Esran posted:The argument I'm making is not that war crimes are suddenly cool and good when Hamas does them. It's that responsibility for those crimes rests with Israel, because they created and maintain a situation in which Palestinians either resist, or lie down and die. Is this your actual belief about organized sexual violence, or is that a crime that should be prosecuted if the ICC believes it might've occurred as in this case? For some of the other crimes I can see your logic. I think with these horrifying circumstances the appropriate route is still to document the crime - who perpetrated it, who suffered it, how it was done and allowed to happen - with maximum context including all "extenuating circumstances" (rational reason to believe that taking these hostages was the only way to prevent mass murder of Palestinian civilians, etc). And then maybe the perpetrator gets a light/no sentence. The ICC trial process seems like one way to do that, and more progress toward that than "this all seems pretty hosed up so we're not gonna deal with it." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 13:58 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:45
|
|
|
I mean, in a just world, everyone involved with decision-making would be tried at the Hague, that's the whole supposed point of having an international court system. Whatever your feelings on who is responsible for October 7th, both Hamas and Israeli leadership should be indicted and have what exactly they did and did not do laid bare. also most or all US presidents and a whole slew of other political figures That's not actually going to happen because the rules-based international order is not a real thing, but the arrest warrant forces Israel's allies to either throw Netanyahu under the bus or violate the pretense that international law exists, neither of which is a winning position. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 13:54 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:52
|
|
|
Shame that Hague is going to cease to exist if they actually attempt to follow through on this, it's a nice city by all accounts. But good on the ICC for taking this step nonetheless.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:52
|
|
|
TheRat posted:What part of your quote says this? quote:Article 7 (1) (g)-1 Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 13:57 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:53
|
|
|
We still need the court to approve the warrants. But just getting to this point alone is an enormous victory against the Israeli machine. That they advanced a warrant for the US's substitute genocidaire is even more astonishing.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:54
|
|
|
It's a shame they bought into the war rape propaganda but the Netanyahu and Gallant stuff is good.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 13:59
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, in a just world, everyone involved with decision-making would be tried at the Hague, that's the whole supposed point of having an international court system. Whatever your feelings on who is responsible for October 7th, both Hamas and Israeli leadership should be indicted and have what exactly they did and did not do laid bare. also most or all US presidents and a whole slew of other political figures My thoughts exactly. Honestly if you're a modern head of state you should probably have to report to the Hague at the end of your term like an exit interview with HR. And maybe they clear you but it wouldn't happen for any head of any state where I've lived. Groovelord Neato posted:It's a shame they bought into the war rape propaganda but the Netanyahu and Gallant stuff is good. They said they did, and are still doing, their own evidence gathering for that charge, including interviews with victims which I think the past investigations couldn't do or at least said they couldn't do. Maybe we'd see it at trial but we all know none of these trials are happening. Alchenar posted:Actually in the statement the allegations of sexual violence are specifically linked to the treatment of the hostages after they were taken into captivity, with the allegations related to Oct 7th 'continue to be looked into'. This is my understanding as well and it makes a lot of sense to me that it's easier to prove leadership accountability for crimes in a controlled environment like makeshift prison than in a totally uncontrolled environment like October 7. I think the sum of this is that international sentiment continues to turn against the state of Israel (good) and that there are more countries where Netanyahu and Gallant can't travel (good) and that the ICC continues to be publicly exposed as functionally impotent because it's a court without a police force or army (bad) Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 14:16 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:08
|
|
|
Actually in the statement the allegations of sexual violence are specifically linked to the treatment of the hostages after they were taken into captivity, with the allegations related to Oct 7th 'continue to be looked into'.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:09
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:Is this your actual belief about organized sexual violence, or is that a crime that should be prosecuted if the ICC believes it might've occurred as in this case? No, my actual belief about the organized sexual violence is that there is so far not an iota of evidence that this occurred, and the attempts to substantiate the assertion have fallen apart under scrutiny, such as the fake news the NYT ran with in November, or this. That's without getting into the discrepancy between the claim that such violence was "organized" or "systematic", and the lukewarm "there are reasonable grounds to believe that hostages taken from Israel have been kept in inhumane conditions, and that some have been subject to sexual violence" statement made by the ICC. But sure, I'm fine with this being prosecuted, and it makes sense to document any crimes in any case. I doubt the ICC will actually be prosecuting any of the Israelis, due to the Hague Invasion Act also covering allies of the empire. Esran fucked around with this message at 14:16 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:12
|
|
|
Civilized Fishbot posted:It sounds like you're an Australian who copes with being the beneficiary of settler-colonialism by way of saying "No TRUE They're not civilians if they support oppression and genocide. If they support genocide and help it, they deserve it when people fight them to stop them. What sources to do you have that contradict this wrt Israel? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:13
|
|
|
Esran posted:I doubt the ICC will actually be prosecuting any of the Israelis, due to the Hague Invasion Act also covering allies of the empire. Pretty sure it doesn't actually apply to non-Americans. E: \/\/\/ Huh, you're right, I completely misremembered it. Turns out Israel is even mentioned explicitly in the 2013 definitions. quote:COVERED ALLIED PERSONS- The term `covered allied persons' means military personnel, elected or appointed officials, and other persons employed by or working on behalf of the government of a NATO member country, a major non-NATO ally (including Australia, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Argentina, the Republic of Korea, and New Zealand), or Taiwan, for so long as that government is not a party to the International Criminal Court and wishes its officials and other persons working on its behalf to be exempted from the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 14:21 on May 20, 2024 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:15
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:Pretty sure it doesn't actually apply to non-Americans. Wrong, it does apply to American allies
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:16
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:That's not actually going to happen because the rules-based international order is not a real thing, but the arrest warrant forces Israel's allies to either throw Netanyahu under the bus or violate the pretense that international law exists, neither of which is a winning position. If Netanyahu is arrested solely to keep up the pretense that international law exists, then it's not a pretense and it really does exist. It might not be as fair or capable as you would like, but doing anything because the law says you must means that law carries at least some weight.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:18
|
|
|
It'd be interesting to watch Israel try to substantiate their weaponized rape propaganda in court. We know at least one image from their "sizzle reel" is that Kurdish woman, and they were stretching to include chest shots as sexual violence. Curious how well the 1200 casualties figure would hold up to serious scrutiny, as well. We've got documented tanks firing indiscriminately, and Israel was quick to chop up and bury cars supporting helicopter involvement. It might be a net good to open October 7 to investigation not helmed by the US or Israel, especially if the ICC has already demonstrated nonpartisan leanings. Although "both sides bad" is one hell of a sirens' call.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:22
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:Pretty sure it doesn't actually apply to non-Americans. Alas quote:prohibits the International Criminal Court from seeking to exercise jurisdiction over the following persons with respect to actions undertaken by them in an official capacity: Technically the law covers anyone the US feels like covering at that moment. Not that this is important, law flows from political power and not the reverse, so the US would just change the law if it got in the way, it's mostly just a funny factoid.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:22
|
|
|
Bald Stalin posted:Hamas did NOTHING wrong. I'm sorry your friends that were in an occupied territory that was doing genocide got caught up in it though. To clarify, as someone living in a settler colony, I don't consider myself Australian. Australia is a settler colony. If my comrades who feel the same died in an uprising against our colony I wouldn't say they were Australians. Does that make sense? No it doesn't. Please explain how you think my friend who was a peace activist Israeli, born to Israeli parents who never had the resources to leave Israel even if they wanted to (because leaving your entire life behind is very difficult!) deserved to die based on having the bad luck to be born where he was.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:26
|
|
|
America saying they would invade the Hague is very different from America actually doing it. It would be the end of everything they've built internationally.
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 11:56 |
|
|
Miftan posted:No it doesn't. Please explain how you think my friend who was a peace activist Israeli, born to Israeli parents who never had the resources to leave Israel even if they wanted to (because leaving your entire life behind is very difficult!) deserved to die based on having the bad luck to be born where he was. He wasn't Israeli and didn't deserve it. This isn't hard. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2024 14:29
|
|