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LanceHunter posted:
Generations don’t exist, hth
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Jan 10, 2019 02:20
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LanceHunter posted:A bunch of ridiculous utopian fantasies from the 50s not coming true (because apparently the great thinkers of the time didn't comprehend the hedonic treadmill) doesn't wipe away the fact that extreme poverty is literally the lowest it has been in all human history. That people around the world have access to more information, art, and opportunity than ever before in history. Or that violence is the lowest it has been for as far back as we can measure. this has less to do with productivity gospel and more to do with the fact that we are consuming our resources at a rate that threatens to destabilize the biosphere and usher in a new wave of climate-related hardship LanceHunter posted:It's pretty insufferable (as a whole generation basically turns into college-sophomore Marxists), but isn't nearly as bad as it'll be three decades from now, when they're basically gonna be baby boomers 2, electric boogaloo. three decades from now it will be even more obvious how unchecked capitalistic consumption has hosed everyone as ever more extreme weather events destroy property and lives
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Jan 10, 2019 02:20
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LanceHunter posted:A bunch of ridiculous utopian fantasies from the 50s not coming true Which fantasy though? Everyone always talks about the "promises" the 1950s made them and acts all super betrayed by it. But what are people even talking about? Sci-fi from the 1950s isn't particularly utopian, the big sci-fi movies are mostly fluff monster from outer space or mutant "we learned how to make little things look big on screen" animals. 1950s sci-fi books are like, fahrenheit 451, and all the On the Beach/A Canticle for Leibowitz/Alas, Babylon/There Will Come Soft Rains/we just invented the post nuclear apocalypse genre. There is stuff like the GM kitchen of the future I guess? But like, children's cartoons were clowning on that contemporaneously, looking at popular science covers 1950-1959 there is one that has a hovercraft and a caption that calls it "a car without wheels" that I guess you could call a flying car, but not really anything like a jetsons thing, and is dwarfed by the number of covers about like, fallout shelters and nuclear war. Like I am sure you can find something somewhere that said something good could happen somewhere but I don't ever get the weird constant insistence that the 1950s promised us a bunch of stuff where everyone just believe it till just now then have to be performatively disappointed.
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Jan 10, 2019 03:18
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like I am sure you can find something somewhere that said something good could happen somewhere but I don't ever get the weird constant insistence that the 1950s promised us a bunch of stuff where everyone just believe it till just now then have to be performatively disappointed. he's talking about social promises like how george jetson's job is to push one button once a day, or that famous buckminster fuller quote quote:We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.
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Jan 10, 2019 03:24
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luxury handset posted:that famous buckminster fuller quote this hit the stanford product development alumni list and boy howdy were folks divided on that one
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Jan 10, 2019 03:27
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luxury handset posted:he's talking about social promises like how george jetson's job Why is anyone basing their view of the past or the future on anything george jetson did?
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Jan 10, 2019 03:30
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luxury handset posted:he's talking about social promises like how george jetson's job is to push one button once a day, or that famous buckminster fuller quote
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Jan 10, 2019 03:31
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Why is anyone basing their view of the past or the future on anything george jetson did? i dont want to have to explain to you how stories told in media are a reflection of society's values and hopes the jetsons is a particular expression of american midcentury ideals about the future. that's why all the architecture is googie and he has a flying car FlamingLiberal posted:He’s absolutely right i agree, i'm just trying to see if i can get through to oocc without taking out a full page ad in wired
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Jan 10, 2019 03:32
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exploded mummy posted:originally they sublet workspace for companies and handled the facilities overhead for the spaces Oh, I thought they sounded familiar A friend switched her company's DC office over to them I now may have some concerns
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Jan 10, 2019 03:38
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I mean this all goes back to the fact that there's really no such thing as some random worker improving their process slightly and thus "forcing" their coworkers out of jobs. 99.9% of the time such a thing happens the entire premise of the job has been invalid for a long time, and the job was basically still there from a combination of inertia and managerial/executive ignorance (though often even the whole company involved is superfluous in the first place). There are rare people legit making breakthroughs such that many jobs suddenly became obsolete, but that's not what happens in most of these cases. Such as when some random person realizes that half the accounting department is wasting their time doing something that could have been replaced with a couple excel spreadsheets in 1997, for an example of something that goons have actually done (in that scenario those extra people in the accounting department were personal friends of the company owner, and also said company owner was using the need to pay the accounting department as a reason to keep underpaying the warehouse/shipping staff at that company). A lot of this "automation" is simply things the employees are going to stumble on doing because they totally make their own workload easier, and unless they're super careful to obfuscate all the effort they're saying the company is going to notice this at some point. Because the ability to use better methods has been sitting there for the taking for decades, it's not something that requires a $50000 robot to be installed and all the rest.
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Jan 10, 2019 03:43
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Until around 2010 GameStop was paying a company called Compucom to monitor to their store network connections and to call a store to let them know if their internet went down. Not to troubleshoot or do anything about it, just to let you know that your connection stopped working since not noticing that is totally a thing that can happen in establishments where your POS has to phone home or run a credit card every several seconds.
Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jan 10, 2019 |
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Jan 10, 2019 03:48
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fishmech posted:I mean this all goes back to the fact that there's really no such thing as some random worker improving their process slightly and thus "forcing" their coworkers out of jobs. 99.9% of the time such a thing happens the entire premise of the job has been invalid for a long time, and the job was basically still there from a combination of inertia and managerial/executive ignorance (though often even the whole company involved is superfluous in the first place). ITT we discover: capitalism doesn't magically create perfect efficiency.
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Jan 10, 2019 10:27
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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fishmech posted:People still use the term "late stage capitalism" unironically? In 2019? Matt Levine uses it in his Bloomberg column lots, and I'm sure he'd never resort to irony.
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Jan 10, 2019 10:47
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communism cannot and will not work
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Jan 10, 2019 11:21
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luxury handset posted:i dont want to have to explain to you how stories told in media are a reflection of society's values and hopes the jetsons is a low budget hanabarbara cartoon from long before you were born and trying to claim it "promised" you things is insane. Do you have any unfilled contracts you made with grape ape as well?
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Jan 10, 2019 13:03
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No, all cartoons from the 1950's are attempts at documentaries and people from the 1950's believe humans coexisted with dinosaurs and had foot powered cars. Seriously though, there were some wacky predictions about technology but I agree that nowhere outside of children's shows and ads for appliances were painting the future as particularly utopian.
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Jan 10, 2019 13:08
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fishmech what is your job
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Jan 10, 2019 13:10
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gfl https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/01/artificial-intelligence-could-diagnose-rare-disorders-using-just-photo-face?linkId=62048824 I like how the article subtly contravenes the headline by clarifying that it was only for a couple rare cases, as youd expect
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Jan 10, 2019 13:50
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It sounds like the types of things it can help diagnose are things that would be obvious to a doctor by just looking at a person anyway. And saying "it correctly puts the diagnosis in its top 10 list" is barely better than WebMD.
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Jan 10, 2019 14:16
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but it does it 91 PERCENT OF THE TIME!!!
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Jan 10, 2019 14:33
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Collaborators are traitors to their comrades, and as such must be counted among their dark masters when the blood begins to flow freely. This reminds me how one time I spilled a drink in a super market, and when I went to try and clean it up my mom scolded me, saying I was taking away a job opportunity from a super market employee.
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Jan 10, 2019 14:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:the jetsons is a low budget hanabarbara cartoon from long before you were born and trying to claim it "promised" you things is insane. Do you have any unfilled contracts you made with grape ape as well? for someone who has a massive boner about the role of technology in society you are quick to disavow methods people use to talk about the role of technology in society if it inconveniences your argument enki42 posted:Seriously though, there were some wacky predictions about technology but I agree that nowhere outside of children's shows and ads for appliances were painting the future as particularly utopian. i think it's pretty much uncontroversial outside of congenital contrarians that in the 1950s people thought that labor saving technology would make work somewhat obsolete in the future, anticipating the continuance of a trend already present in consumer technology for the last half century. i thought i would use the example of a children's cartoon to illustrate this simple point but i did not anticipate oocc being confused by this bright, colorful and easy to comprehend example
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Jan 10, 2019 14:58
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luxury handset posted:for someone who has a massive boner about the role of technology in society you are quick to disavow methods people use to talk about the role of technology in society if it inconveniences your argument Because literally no one actually honestly is actually feeling lied to by a dumb children's cartoon and people only bring it up to fake outrage about how they are a poor innocent babe that totally 100% had full faith in magilla gorilla except when they can dramatically announce they have just now been betrayed and now all predictions of the future, from real life or fiction are fake and won't happen because fred flintson told them something was real and if he lied then everything could be lies.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Because literally no one actually honestly is actually feeling lied to but a dumb children's cartoon and people only bring it up to fake outrage about how they are a poor innocent babe that totally 100% had full faith in magilla gorilla except when they can dramatically announce they have just now been betrayed and now all predictions of the future, from real life or fiction are fake and won't happen because fred flintson told them something was real and if he lied then everything could be lies. there is absolutely no reason for you to be this upset and illiterate this early in the morning all i said was that we can look at examples like the jetsons to see the kinds of things people in the 1950s thought would happen in the future. media analysis is in fact extremely common and accepted as a thing to do. i'll leave you alone now to mumble in a corner to yourself about how cartoons are not reality
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Jan 10, 2019 15:04
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luxury handset posted:i think it's pretty much uncontroversial outside of congenital contrarians that in the 1950s people thought that labor saving technology would make work somewhat obsolete in the future, anticipating the continuance of a trend already present in consumer technology for the last half century. If you showed a photo of your job to someone in the 1950s he would declare it physically easy. Even the jetsons made the whole premise of the show that george worked very little and very easy and that it was not actually any better than a normal job. Like cashiers now don't have to do any of the mental math people used to have to do to make change, but like, spacely sprocket still will come yell at them and hit on their wife. Which was the actual bad part of the job, like the jetsons would have told you.
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Jan 10, 2019 15:08
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Late stage capitalism to me is seeing wealth inequality in a stark similarity to the 1920s precrash
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Jan 10, 2019 17:11
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qkkl posted:This reminds me how one time I spilled a drink in a super market, and when I went to try and clean it up my mom scolded me, saying I was taking away a job opportunity from a super market employee. That employee at the time likely didn't have her every move tracked by omnipresent ai-assisted security cameras inside the building and a GPS and vital sign ankle bracelet, as well as strict metrics that allowed the employer know exactly how much actual work they had done and how few and how short they could restrict their pee breaks.
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Jan 10, 2019 19:25
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Yes, I’m sure Industry never made absurd claims about the futurequote:Our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter... It is not too much to expect that our children will know of great periodic regional famines in the world only as matters of history, will travel effortlessly over the seas and under them and through the air with a minimum of danger and at great speeds, and will experience a lifespan far longer than ours, as disease yields and man comes to understand what causes him to age. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_cheap_to_meter
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Jan 10, 2019 19:47
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Trabisnikof posted:Yes, I’m sure Industry never made absurd claims about the future In comparison to the 1950's, the famine statement isn't too out there:  The electricity one is just flat out wrong, and the travel one is pretty iffy (you could make the argument that air travel is available to way more of the population than it was in 1954).
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Jan 10, 2019 19:58
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enki42 posted:In comparison to the 1950's, the famine statement isn't too out there: Great periodic regional famines is literally our future.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:02
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enki42 posted:In comparison to the 1950's, the famine statement isn't too out there: all of these claims sort of made sense if you were extrapolating from trends evident at the time and had a great deal of optimism regarding the continued progress of technology turns out all of this is in hindsight based on an increasingly ill advised overconsumption of irreplaceable fossil fuels and other mineral resources which greatly accelerated the pace of human technology and industry. but those claims sort of make sense in the context of a firm belief in the power of Science and Industry as well as an additional fifty years between your perspective and the approaching horizon of resource scarcity regarding famine, we have not just anthropogenic climate change to worry about but also the accumulated impacts of decades of petroleum based mass agriculture in terms of both fertilizers, pesticides, and farm equipment to which the looming consequences are much more close at hand than they were at the beginning of the green revolution. we're aware of the pending dangers and trying to take corrective measures but it's still an open question how effective these things might be without rapid shocks to food supply to shake up society, for example the obvious need to reduce red meat production as much as possible
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Jan 10, 2019 20:16
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I'm not disagreeing that climate change will lead to more famine in the future, my point is just that it's not exactly "lol crazy 50's guy coming up with moon technology" when his predictions about famine were largely correct for at least the next 60 years.
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Jan 10, 2019 20:24
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enki42 posted:I'm not disagreeing that climate change will lead to more famine in the future, my point is just that it's not exactly "lol crazy 50's guy coming up with moon technology" when his predictions about famine were largely correct for at least the next 60 years. ehh arguably one of the biggest causes of famine is not sheer lack of food but rather inefficient or immoral distribution of food, to which massive increases in food production are probably less of a cause of decrease in famine than a long period of relative global stability under US hegemony. the big famines of the immediate pre-green revolution are due to communist governments experiencing internal economic turmoil and probable (please let's not derail here) genocide, not purely bad harvests and hosed up weather likewise, persistent hunger in the united states isn't caused by bread lines but rather bad politics and forcing the poor to starve for their sins. so the idea that technology will solve famine isn't really as prescient as it seems given that technology hasn't stopped people being horrible to each other
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Jan 10, 2019 20:32
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I agree that majority of famine today, and yes some really big ones in the 20th century were more about distribution and politics, but I'm not sure that holds up for all of the 20th century. Are you saying that without the green revolution we'd have more or less the same amount of famine that we do today?
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Jan 10, 2019 20:40
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enki42 posted:Are you saying that without the green revolution we'd have more or less the same amount of famine that we do today? no, i'm saying that the reduction in famine in the later portion of the 20th century is far more attributable to a period of relative global peace and increases in trade leading to higher quality of life for people of all socioeconomic status than technology leading to greater food production. both are important but in the timeline without the green revolution you'd probably see less population growth and more sub-famine levels of hunger than events definable as famine
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Jan 10, 2019 21:00
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https://twitter.com/dril/status/1083516080985755649?s=19
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Jan 11, 2019 02:47
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I think that one quote about energy assumed there would be more nuclear plants
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Jan 12, 2019 20:06
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It's possible for capitalism to completely eliminate famine worldwide and also not be great for working people. I mean isn't it kind of Marxism 101 that capitalism will produce solutions for basically all of our material problems? And revolution happens when we get there and notice the only problem we have left is that the class of immortal Jeff Bezos clones owns literally everything and we just rent it forever. "Late Stage Capitalism" is silly because we are definitely not in the late stage in TYOOL 2019. We still have unions ffs.
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Jan 13, 2019 19:05
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Mineaiki posted:It's possible for capitalism to completely eliminate famine worldwide and also not be great for working people. Is there any purpose in withholding that label until the atmosphere is literally on fire? "Well, the environmental suits aren't as good as they used to be, but they're union made so I guess we aren't in a crisis yet."
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Jan 13, 2019 19:49
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RuanGacho posted:Is there any purpose in withholding that label until the atmosphere is literally on fire? If you're just going to call everything "late stage capitalism" what's the point of including the qualifier in the first place? Why not just say capitalism?
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Jan 13, 2019 20:07
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