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Quincy Smallvoice posted:its almost as if losing lanes doesnt matter as much as you think. It should though, that's my point.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:35
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Pop-o-Matic Trouble posted:It should though, that's my point. counterpoint: it loving owns when a team clutches it out and makes a big net worth swing happen
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Apr 30, 2017 21:37
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Pop-o-Matic Trouble posted:It should though, that's my point. It does matter, as does weird item builds and two teamwipes. You're acting like they lost all game and magically took it back in the end. OG pushed towers all game and lost every teamfight. Then, they won two teamfights, and their tower push could not be stopped. That's just how to game works.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:38
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And I'm sure there have been games where people won the lane and then stomped. It's not like every game was a turnabout.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:38
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Still not TI winners
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Apr 30, 2017 21:40
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jBrereton posted:e: (TI4 was best TI and the game was real good back then) I just remember "void void void void void" Last year's TI seemed like some sort of balance nirvana where only really Techies (who will never be relevant again) and Jakiro were in the garbage bin, but everything else was viable and winnable. But part of that was fueled by Wings being the kind of team this thread has always longed for: the no-rules guys who appear to pick a different set of five random heroes every game and somehow make it work.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:40
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Pop-o-Matic Trouble posted:It should though, that's my point. you were crying about "last 15 minutes" - no? which sounds pretty loving dumb to anyone with a brain. edit: or anyone who saw games @ this major.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:39
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Lmao its just every girl in the audience in one movie
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Apr 30, 2017 21:41
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jesus how creepy
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Apr 30, 2017 21:43
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This is kind of a creepy montage
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Apr 30, 2017 21:41
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I love that they completely gave up any pretense of filming anything but attractive women for this last bit.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:43
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Pop-o-Matic Trouble posted:It should though, that's my point. The last time in this thread someone said that laning doesn't matter because every game is built to go late, they were blown out of the loving water by games were the opening minutes were super crucial. Where was that? Boston? TI?
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Apr 30, 2017 21:44
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EG still #1, sorry
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Apr 30, 2017 21:47
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link qtpie montage
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Apr 30, 2017 21:50
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ElNarez posted:counterpoint: it loving owns when a team clutches it out and makes a big net worth swing happen There is so much magic damage out there for supports at level 15 (which they reach quickly if creep waves get pushed into the enemy T3s) that unless you are massively ahead, your itemisation as the aggressor is less impactful than the enemy team's counter-itemisation when 3 of your heroes die trying to highground, especially since you take a net loss drop if you need to sell stuff to make space for new items/reshape what your team does in response to their itemisation (which is normally better than your early-midgame items). I'm sure there's a happy medium to reach between the current situation and the TI4 "you lost, get hosed" situation, but at the moment it is way too hard to high ground and the penalty for not being able to do it successfully is so huge that it can easily turn the game.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:54
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Really this win just goes to show that Fly and Notail are probably the two best players in the world. They're not as flashy as other players and probably not as mechanically gifted as many big names, but they know how to draft and win, consistently, which at the end of the day is really all that matters. Swap out their teammates and they continue winning. I haven't been as big of a fan of their overall playstyle for the past few months but this series proved that they can still pull out the weird drafts and the super solid plays when it matters. They haven't won a TI yet but 4 major wins is a streak that's really unmatched, even by Na'vi in the TI1/TI2 era.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:54
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That was a good major and a good finals series. I feel like this patch is fun and still far from solved, wouldn't mind it at TI with just a few tweaks to specific heroes.
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Apr 30, 2017 21:58
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Taffer posted:Really this win just goes to show that Fly and Notail are probably the two best players in the world. They're not as flashy as other players and probably not as mechanically gifted as many big names, but they know how to draft and win, consistently, which at the end of the day is really all that matters. Swap out their teammates and they continue winning. I haven't been as big of a fan of their overall playstyle for the past few months but this series proved that they can still pull out the weird drafts and the super solid plays when it matters. Counterpoint: Original Fnatic. I don't disagree with most of this, but they still need to be around top-tier players.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:02
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Zurreco posted:EG still #1, sorry I realize I maintain a persona of being their biggest hater, but to break kayfabe: They need better leadership. Artour does an incredible job of finding farm given how often they just leave him to get picked off while they support Sumail, and still expect him to show up for the base push with an equal net worth at 30:00. With plays like that one Rosh pit spectacular, I get why they follow Sumail's lead and put so much into protecting him, but their late game coordination has been lacking since Fear retired. It might have been bullshit, but I've read that PPD used to let Fear take control when the game went late and fights could become game-ending. The only other person I've heard that sort of thing spoken about that has played for an NA squad recently is Resolution, who I guess had enough of the region and went back home. Too bad, because a Reso/Sumail/Universe/Zai/PPD team is the kind of thing I'd get really excited about.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:06
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jBrereton posted:The problem is that it's no longer a clutch thing, it happens nearly every pub game I'm in and a lot of pro games too. I think most people would agree that in-base shrines and buybacks should probably be nerfed or altered somehow, but everybody on that stage knows the state of the game and how their draft fits into pushing/defending high ground. VP just made really bad decisions, like a non-farming battle alch that actually never had a significant gold advantage (and alch is objectively bad without a gold advantage) and sold his most influential item mid-game (his solar crest). And then there was the LC that couldn't win a single duel for 30 minutes - VP did a good job getting an early lead but they made all the wrong decisions to turn that lead into a snowball and a victory. Then OG made some truly stellar plays that were able to flip it around. Pushing HG is hard, but they made it harder on themselves. Joda posted:Counterpoint: Original Fnatic. I don't disagree with most of this, but they still need to be around top-tier players. Fair point. But I also think it's fair to say they were maturing as players and weren't nearly as stable back then. They definitely seemed to have figured out the secret sauce of winning consistently. The downside is that going into TI they're the team everyone is looking to take down, so they face much stiffer competition. I do think they choked a little at TI6 but everyone was definitely working hard to counter them directly.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:08
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I honestly just can't believe OG sometimes they're unreal. I have no idea how they're this good.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:16
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i think, and bear with me fellas maybe, just maybe OG... are good? maybe, highest mmr ana isn't the worst player in the world maybe, notail isnt actually a trashbag or maybe they are unbeleivable trash who fluke their way to victories across 4 majors ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Apr 30, 2017 22:33
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Coffee Mugshot posted:It does matter, as does weird item builds and two teamwipes. You're acting like they lost all game and magically took it back in the end. OG pushed towers all game and lost every teamfight. Then, they won two teamfights, and their tower push could not be stopped. That's just how to game works. Yeah there was a point mid-game where they showed the graphs and even though VP seemed like they were way ahead they were really only like 5k gold up because OG kept split pushing and farming while VP was stacking to fight. OG was just trying to stall for Troll and once he got BKB + Butterfly the game immediately swung.
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Apr 30, 2017 22:34
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OG has a lot of experienced players and one of the highest MMR guys in the world, but so does Secret. There definitely is something to be spoken for leadership in both teams, and I think it plays a small part in the difference between "winning tournament yet again" and "taunted into submission by Brazilians".
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Apr 30, 2017 23:05
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Really though, Puppey used to have that aura where people wanted to play with that guy because he led a team that went to TI grand finals three times, and I think by now he's wiped almost all that goodwill down the drain between pay disputes and hacked chat logs and CCTV footage of abused monitors. But there's been this unwritten rule that a guy with that much prestige is going to be the figurehead of a team and people will want to leave their current teams for him. I think Fly deserves that aura, he just doesn't have it yet (or maybe now he does?) because Navi came from a time when TI stood so far above everything else that it might as well be the only thing on the schedule, and OG just hasn't yet cracked that TI nut. Fly has shown many times now that he is a more competent captain than like 90% of the world stage. Just.... don't ever go to the offlane again.
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Apr 30, 2017 23:24
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yeah i think a lot of puppeys 'sway' as such stems from his status for being that guy that lead navi and it's not like he's a bad player, and if he's not now, he at least was a good enough captain to control xbox from being a moron 24/7 but you look at some of the teams out there now, and there are a lot 'stronger' captains, even if they're not necessarily as mechanically skilled (depending on what you're looking for) that clearly do well with their team and yeah, fly is a good example of that, he's got a team of competent players, none are on their own considered the best at what they do (even though ana is like the highest mmr ever but w/e) and they just crush, constantly they're doing somethin right
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Apr 30, 2017 23:32
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Taffer posted:Really this win just goes to show that Fly and Notail are probably the two best players in the world. They're not as flashy as other players and probably not as mechanically gifted as many big names, but they know how to draft and win, consistently, which at the end of the day is really all that matters. Swap out their teammates and they continue winning. I haven't been as big of a fan of their overall playstyle for the past few months but this series proved that they can still pull out the weird drafts and the super solid plays when it matters. I pretty much every player at the major is in the "best players in the world" group. Fly and Notail have been arguably the most consistent players in the world for a while now. Outside of TI. That said they played really well. Half of the games they win start like game two between OG and EG. EG got 11 kills to 0 of OG and were dominating the lane. OG just kept farming and spliting the map and not panicking. They they get initiated on and counter with a big pile of ults and whatnot and win 10 minutes later. funmanguy fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Apr 30, 2017 |
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Apr 30, 2017 23:39
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I think SG being able to tilt Secret despite being objectively less skilled and experienced is the perfect example of how far Puppeys leadership goes. It's like the opposite of Bulba, who is by no means the greatest offlaner but he is calm and seems to help every team he's on work together and succeed against opponents that have more skilled players. At the end of the day it's a team game, and part of the reason people still love og Navi and now OG is because they are good teams.
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Apr 30, 2017 23:53
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Not Al-Qaeda posted:link qtpie montage https://youtu.be/RWzQJQr-HBQ?t=3h41m16s maybe next time valve will unveil io arcana tethered to dota 2 fan girls
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May 1, 2017 00:07
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Nasgate posted:I think SG being able to tilt Secret despite being objectively less skilled and experienced is the perfect example of how far Puppeys leadership goes. i don't think it's fair to say 'objectively' less skilled when they did outright beat them not saying they're fantastic, but that they're clearly not objectively worse
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May 1, 2017 00:11
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Craptacular! posted:Really though, Puppey used to have that aura where people wanted to play with that guy because he led a team that went to TI grand finals three times, and I think by now he's wiped almost all that goodwill down the drain between pay disputes and hacked chat logs and CCTV footage of abused monitors. But there's been this unwritten rule that a guy with that much prestige is going to be the figurehead of a team and people will want to leave their current teams for him. I think Fly deserves that aura, he just doesn't have it yet I think Fly has had that aura for a while but we don't get to see it because OG doesn't blow up after every major. Even the one they lost they just stayed together.
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May 1, 2017 00:35
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Balobam posted:yeah i think a lot of puppeys 'sway' as such stems from his status for being that guy that lead navi Puppey's drafts were influencing teams throughout the tournament. Secret's game 1 against IG was such an absolute stomp that you saw other teams trying to implement a large part of it. He's still somewhat the guy everyone copies their homework from. As a player, well, that's kind of one of the interesting quiet stories from this tournament. These were the first games Secret has played since Monkey was added in 7.03, and he became a favorite of support roamers but Secret has drafted him zero times. He isn't so broken that Secret would have to ban him every time as an alternative to taking him, but "Puppey won't play Monkey" is somewhere a ways below "Shiki won't play Leshrac" in terms of hampering a draft. He also got jebaited so hard by the Brazillians that one of his charges from behind the enemy in lane with no followthrough from the team confused even me. It looked like the kind of play I would do because I think I'll get all the bashes on everyone. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:04 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 01:01
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The problem with Puppey and team secret is that he has no idea how to take losses anymore. He doesn't learn the reasons why they lost and what they need to do in order to not lose their poo poo and tilt. I think it was EE that said something like "yeah they're winning now but let's see how they handle a loss." And it's clear that once a team figures out secret they get destroyed.
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May 1, 2017 01:36
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Anyone have words on exactly how much influence coaches have? They mentioned that OGs cosy hasn't changed in a while and I'm curious how much that familiarity with n0tail and fly helps
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May 1, 2017 02:26
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You could probably day that fuckingmad's coaching is one of the reasons OG bounce back so well after losing a series or maintain momentum .
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May 1, 2017 02:41
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Balobam posted:i don't think it's fair to say 'objectively' less skilled when they did outright beat them They played better, but even in their wins id say they were less skillful in their reaction times and skill usage. And their mmr is lower which is objective if faulty. I agree though, they definitely aren't objectively worse overall. They had good drafts and for the most part made good decisions. I was speaking more on an individual player skill level, not a team level which is exactly why they won. They taunted the hell out of a team with two of the more well known ragers which dissolved secrets teamwork.
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May 1, 2017 02:39
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I just want to see more Tavo. That dude plays like a stone faced trench veteran with the 9 v 1 plays.
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May 1, 2017 03:14
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Fear seems like a decent coach for sumail at least. I think its at least part of why sumail is able to perform well even when other members of his team don't.Nasgate posted:It's like the opposite of Bulba, who is by no means the greatest offlaner but he is calm and seems to help every team he's on work together and succeed against opponents that have more skilled players. Not sure if Bulba is too good of an example. He is kinda notorious for getting nervous at lans and performing poorly. Bulba is kinda like injuly, very good when he is playing from home, but very inconsistent in person. funmanguy fucked around with this message at 03:29 on May 1, 2017 |
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May 1, 2017 03:23
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Coffee Mugshot posted:I just want to see more Tavo. That dude plays like a stone faced trench veteran with the 9 v 1 plays. Yeah, is sand king was a force of loving nature. It would be great if one of the Brazilian CSGO squads like SK or immortals would pickup SG.
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May 1, 2017 03:32
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funmanguy posted:Yeah, is sand king was a force of loving nature. It would be great if one of the Brazilian CSGO squads like SK or immortals would pickup SG. In every match that they won those epicenters and burrowstrikes were  . It was so nice to see SK play that good coming from a place nobody expected.
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May 1, 2017 05:27
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