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It's definitely not in my star wars wheelhouse, but I still don't really get why the pablo gang dug in their heels on the only 1 million clones thing. It just makes everything stupider with not a lot of upside I can see
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Mar 20, 2023 18:19
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The only way it can possibly make sense is: Actually the clones were just supplemental shock/elite troops/command and most of the war was fought with local belligerents. So Mon Cal fielded 100 million mon cal fish riders supported by 1000 clones.
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Mar 20, 2023 18:30
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No Mods No Masters posted:It's definitely not in my star wars wheelhouse, but I still don't really get why the pablo gang dug in their heels on the only 1 million clones thing. It just makes everything stupider with not a lot of upside I can see The only reason I can think they'd do that is if they really wanted to push that this was all a fake war orchestrated by Palpatine, so it didn't really matter how many forces were on either side, as long as people saw a war was being fought. But that doesn't really hold up when you think about it for longer than a minute.
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Mar 20, 2023 18:39
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The Republic not having a military never made any sense in the first place, when you've got potential adversaries like the Hutts, piracy, NGOs fielding military strength security forces, and so on. You've even got member states with semi independent militaries. Is all security devolved to local efforts? Who enforces trade controls (not like embargo actions or smuggling, but like Florida's ag inspections)? Who runs the Coast Guard and is getting drunk knuckleheads out of their space pontoon boat that ran out of gas?
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Mar 20, 2023 18:39
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I feel like it had to be one of those idosyncratic george dictat things because pretty obviously anyone else working in the setting would happily say "...and then many many millions of more clones rolled out". But then the question becomes why did it also apparently persist under disney
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Mar 20, 2023 18:43
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No Mods No Masters posted:I feel like it had to be one of those idosyncratic george dictat things because pretty obviously anyone else working in the setting would happily say "...and then many many millions of more clones rolled out". Have they out right overwritten anything from George yet? I mean, I know they wiped out the EU, but that wasn't really George. And the things they kept (the original 6 movies and the Clone Wars TV show) are specifically "These are the things George had a hand in," which says to me, "Things he touched can't be overwritten."
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Mar 20, 2023 18:52
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I'm not familiar enough with the clone wars multimedia wrt how explicitly it's stated. I guess if it's there outright in any filoni stuff it's probably not going away
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Mar 20, 2023 18:54
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the fact that there werent enough clones is itself a clone wars plot point. its the reason anakin and obiwan et al had to train saw gererra in insurgency tactics rather than just fight his war for him
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Mar 20, 2023 19:22
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https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1636484127816810497?s=46&t=z-BpKV_zuayDXrjUW20mQw lol
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Mar 20, 2023 20:02
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Did no-one tell Feloni he looks like a colossal twat in that hat
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Mar 20, 2023 20:43
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Butterfly Valley posted:Did no-one tell Feloni he looks like a colossal twat in that hat 
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Mar 20, 2023 20:47
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Butterfly Valley posted:Did no-one tell Feloni he looks like a colossal twat in that hat It's been his brand for like 20 years now, so if anyone has yet, he's never listened to them.
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Mar 20, 2023 20:49
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Sash! posted:The Republic not having a military never made any sense in the first place, when you've got potential adversaries like the Hutts, piracy, NGOs fielding military strength security forces, and so on. You've even got member states with semi independent militaries. Is all security devolved to local efforts? Who enforces trade controls (not like embargo actions or smuggling, but like Florida's ag inspections)? Who runs the Coast Guard and is getting drunk knuckleheads out of their space pontoon boat that ran out of gas? A million clones is probably enough if most planets have a few thousand people on them. WWII comparisons are a bit off because that was a total war between nation states on the same planet. In the Clone Wars you only need as many clones as the separatists have robots. If you're just contesting a few key strategic points you could end up with huge battles without numbers any bigger than stated. Ultimately it's like fighters banking in space. If you were making a coherent science fiction world from the ground up, your setting would probably suggest other numbers or other behaviors. That's not Star Wars though. It's all about being evocative, not being accurate. If it vaguely feels right, that's as close to coherent as Star Wars has ever been.
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Mar 20, 2023 21:10
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Butterfly Valley posted:Did no-one tell Feloni he looks like a colossal twat in that hat It's hard to give someone a swirly when they've got a cowboy hat on.
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Mar 20, 2023 21:14
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How big were the actual Clone Wars anyway? I haven't seen The Clone Wars cartoon so, like, was it really an epic galaxy-spanning war? Did billions of people and a bunch of planets actually get clobbered by it? I guess what I'm after is, is it possible the Clone Wars were small enough in scope (light-years between battlefields aside) that a million clones really isn't that far out of line after all?
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Mar 20, 2023 22:20
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There's only like 20 planets in star wars so you don't need that many troops
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Mar 20, 2023 22:22
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Theory: the actual battles for control of planets were battalion- and brigade-sized actions, fought mostly for control of planetary shield generators, without which there was no battle, just a planet being held hostage under orbital threat.
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Mar 20, 2023 22:23
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I'm probably like way outside the average experience here, but my clone wars multimedia experience was a few novels (shatterpoint, medstar, yoda dark rendezvous) and I never watched any of the cartoons. Granted it's been 20 years, but to my memory it was just a big rear end messy brutal civil star war and 1 million is orders of magnitude off of plausibility. For what it's worth I was looking up those books and saw this in one of the summaries: quote:The galaxy-wide civil war between the Republic and the Separatists is a war fought on a thousand fronts, with heroism and sacrifices on both sides. But nowhere is fighting more fierce than on the fetid swamp world of Drongar, where a ragtag military medical unit wages a never-ending war of its own… I know this is an oversimplification, please spare me, but with 1000 fronts we're looking at an average of 1000 clones per front
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Mar 20, 2023 22:28
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My theory is that the galaxy's population distribution is horrendously skewed by the ecumenopoli planets like Coruscant or Nar Shaddaa and the majority of locations are barely colonized yet strategically valuable. A battalion could be enough to force a battle.
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Mar 20, 2023 22:34
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Arc Hammer posted:My theory is that the galaxy's population distribution is horrendously skewed by the ecumenopoli planets like Coruscant or Nar Shaddaa and the majority of locations are barely colonized yet strategically valuable. A battalion could be enough to force a battle. Only 1 million clones will never totally make sense for the scope of the clone wars we see (and it even being called the clone wars) but yeah I always figured like 99.99999999% of the inhabited planets in the galaxy have like 40 people actually full time living on them and just would only very rarely be travelled to or catch the attention of any galactic government. Like surely there's a massive amount entire systems that there's some minor trade with but aren't actually involved in anything.
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Mar 20, 2023 22:44
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I feel like I could get closer to accepting that they had only 1 million guys with guns who go fight on the ground, they're legendarily elite and have a very low casualty rate, ehhhhh. But the 1 million number really suffers when they're supposed to also constitute (mostly?) the entire navy. The wook says about 40k people to crew a star destroyer, assume similar for the proto star destroyers in the clone wars, that's very hard to swallow even just in the numbers shown onscreen in eg the battle over coruscant
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Mar 20, 2023 22:47
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No Mods No Masters posted:I know this is an oversimplification, please spare me, but with 1000 fronts we're looking at an average of 1000 clones per front That does kinda fit with what we see on-screen in the cartoon, assuming you don't count the innumerable Venators that go down with all hands. The show tends to avoid having lots of characters on-screen, partly because it's easier for story-telling, partly because it's easier for rendering. The show does a better job with the number of systems involved than the size of the militaries, and lots of episodes will feature a new battle/planet of the week.
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Mar 20, 2023 22:48
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Old Canon had the Spaarti clones who were rapid replacements for the Kaminoan clones but not as good and then a massive reserve force held on Coruscant's moon was deployed when Grievous attacked in Episode 3. Old canon also had the majority of republic warships crewed by volunteers and auxiliaries.
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Mar 20, 2023 22:51
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Madurai posted:Theory: the actual battles for control of planets were battalion- and brigade-sized actions, fought mostly for control of planetary shield generators, without which there was no battle, just a planet being held hostage under orbital threat. On one hand, that's pretty much what the Battle of Hoth is. But, on the other, what we got wasn't a brigade or company scale action. If you assume AT-AT = One Tank, then the Empire threw a single platoon at the Rebel base. It also gives you a force of about 200 brigades, assuming 100 percent of the force is infantry. It also could explain the GO HERE, NO GO HERE constant zipping around because they have to rush brigades all over the place instead of holding anything ever.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:04
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Even if you want to say the star destroyers are 75% non-clone crew, 10k clones per ship is going to quickly eat a large chunk of the million unless you really want to push comically small numbers for the size of the republic fleet (again, on the order of 1000 fronts over a 3 year war). I count at least 15 of them in the panning shot at the end of aotc so I guess we can call that the absolute minimum
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Mar 20, 2023 23:12
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Sash! posted:On one hand, that's pretty much what the Battle of Hoth is. But, on the other, what we got wasn't a brigade or company scale action. If you assume AT-AT = One Tank, then the Empire threw a single platoon at the Rebel base. Still never not going to be hilarious that Vader rolled up to Hoth with about 50 Star Destroyers and 1 Super Star Destroyer with a combined compliment of about 2 million souls all told and then decided to try and take the planet with about 30 men and 3 AT-ATs.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:15
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Hey they still won that fight.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:18
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Jerkface posted:The only way it can possibly make sense is: Actually the clones were just supplemental shock/elite troops/command and most of the war was fought with local belligerents. So Mon Cal fielded 100 million mon cal fish riders supported by 1000 clones. From what I remember from the Clone Wars series, it was fairly common for Clone forces to supplement local forces when present and eventually leave the fighting to them when it's stable enough to do so. There are also cases where they're the sole fighting force in places, usually to assault Separatist bases and the like.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:13
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America mustered 16 million for WW2 so, yeah syfo-dias should have ordered more. Or a kamino million is a standard billion.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:34
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Maybe the Kaminoan messed up and meant "1,000,000" in base three since they have three fingers per hand, which would be 1,212,210,202,001 in Base 10  Base 6 would be 2.1 billion, but we both know neither of these are true and I'm just being a nerd with numbers.
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Mar 21, 2023 01:44
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HootTheOwl posted:America mustered 16 million for WW2 so, yeah syfo-dias should have ordered more. Wait Just realized, the ice cream container they brought back in Mandolorian as a standardized container volume/type people know about is called a camtono, they both start with cam sound so is that a unit of measure or container type that originated on Kamino? Someone do the abstract conceptual math to figure out how much a Kamillion is based on that lol
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Mar 21, 2023 01:45
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imma loving kamillionaire
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Mar 21, 2023 01:55
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I'm a 4 but a kamino 7
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Mar 21, 2023 02:05
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nine-gear crow posted:Still never not going to be hilarious that Vader rolled up to Hoth with about 50 Star Destroyers and 1 Super Star Destroyer with a combined compliment of about 2 million souls all told and then decided to try and take the planet with about 30 men and 3 AT-ATs. 1 Executor-class = 24 AT-ATs and up to 38,000 troops, and 200 assault shuttles (carry 2 squads?) 1 Imp-I class = 20 AT-ATs and up to 9700 troops, though only 15 troop transports (carry 1 squad each) plus 8 Lambda shuttles (2 squads each) 3+ Imp Deuces = 20 AT-ATs and up to 9700 troops. Stuck with 8 Lambda shuttles for troop transport (2 squads each), plus 2 Gozanti cruisers (1 squad each). Based on the stats I was able to find online, best guess is that despite carrying a lot of stormtroopers, the Imperial Fleet has some serious issues transporting all of them to the ground. Assuming you can squeeze 2 squads into an assault shuttle, and the Executor can send down 400 squads for a total of 4000 stormtroopers. Four Star Destroyers can manage 31 (Imp I) and 18 each (Imp IIs), for a total of 85 more squads or 850 more stormtroopers. Send everything down and you've got a brigade at best. But if you can only get 4 squads per AT-AT and you don't have enough cold-weather gear, I could see being limited to a single battalion or less to avoid your troopers having to hoof it, in the snow, against fixed positions under circumstances where you have no air support. It looks like the Imperial ground forces are built around taking control of local space and most of the planetary atmosphere, then landing troops under secure circumstances and just running lots of flights to and from the surface. If you assume they're mainly concerned with seizing fixed positions that can be shielded or sweeping parts of the planet where enemies might be hiding, that might suffice and all the extra troop capacity is either reserved for leaving garrisons behind or being able to evacuate forces. We all know the real reason is that Sheev wanted several legions on the Death Star II to protect the shield generator and to stand at attention when he arrived, so he stripped most of the land forces from Vader's fleet.
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Mar 21, 2023 02:12
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TK-42-1 posted:imma loving kamillionaire  still waiting for the the third in the trilogy
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Mar 21, 2023 02:17
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Palpatine IS a very "I want everyone to show up and clap for me or they don't get paid" kind of guy 
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Mar 21, 2023 02:19
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Been binging through The Bad Batch, goddamn this show is indeed good  . I'm legitimately surprised they've let Omega rack up an actual body count with that energy bow though  . Even Ezra had to run with that little kid-safe stungun thing for a few seasons before the writers let him actually off someone. Nice that the show actually let her be capable with it too, rather than drag out "Whoopsies; the kid enthusiastically tried and missed!" for too long.Also the bow seems to be the best weapon the squad has, that thing has some nasty penetration compared to the Batch's blasters. nine-gear crow posted:Still never not going to be hilarious that Vader rolled up to Hoth with about 50 Star Destroyers and 1 Super Star Destroyer with a combined compliment of about 2 million souls all told and then decided to try and take the planet with about 30 men and 3 AT-ATs. Vader wasn't there for the Rebellion, he was there for Luke. Just unloading on, and destroying, the base doesn't get him his son.
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Mar 21, 2023 02:22
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just bringing Omega to the drug deal double cross so she can ice some dudes in the shootout
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Mar 21, 2023 02:38
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Alan Smithee posted:just bringing Omega to the drug deal double cross so she can ice some dudes in the shootout That's how you break in child soldiers.
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Mar 21, 2023 05:19
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Just give her a gun. The Daniel Logan clones used blasters during the Kamino episodes, but Omega and space Aladdin have to use laser bows and slingshots.
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Mar 21, 2023 05:23
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