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With max productivity, isn't it no extra raw resources? Max prod is now a 300% boost, recycling gives you 25% back, so that's even on every resource --- except for time, of course.
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Sep 10, 2023 04:59
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| # ? May 26, 2024 09:54 |
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You can't have max productivity and also have quality boosts.
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Sep 10, 2023 05:03
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Ah, drat, I thought it was that 3 prod mods would give +300%, so you could still slot 1 quality mod. (That would be even slower, but at least you aren't consuming more raw resources.) Never mind then.
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Sep 10, 2023 05:09
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Well, it does look like you can craft max quality items if all the input components are also max quality (see the example video - the last assembler is making legendary GCs and has no modules in it at all).
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Sep 10, 2023 05:34
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Solumin posted:Ah, drat, I thought it was that 3 prod mods would give +300%, so you could still slot 1 quality mod. (That would be even slower, but at least you aren't consuming more raw resources.) Never mind then. I guess maybe you can once you're already deep down the quality rabbithole? That seems way less efficient than just slotting full quality mods and accepting the extra resource consumption tbqh
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Sep 10, 2023 05:37
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although come to think of it perhaps if you're rolling for 4->5 upgrades on a second-stage intermediate then maybe it would be worthwhile to run 3 productivity 1 quality, and recycle anything that doesn't upgrade? at least if you're only getting a trickle of 4 quality first-stage intermediates from whatever's feeding into this process anyway. lots of interesting stuff to think about.
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Sep 10, 2023 05:40
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So if I want to craft a Q5 armour does that mean that if I have all of the engredients for it at Q5 I will automatically get it? Or do I need all of the ingredients at Q5 and then if I use a machine with 4 L3 Quality modules in it I can then have a 10% chance of constructing a Q5 armour?
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Sep 10, 2023 07:45
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I don't think it's entirely clear yet but it appears that the former is the case, at least in the example build. Which does make it seem like it'll be a bit easier to get - rather than making and recycling tons of expensive items, you do that with the cheaper sub-components (starting from green circuits and gears, basically). I took a closer look at the example video and it seems like recyclers will give at least the input quality as output, or higher with quality modules (the ones on the top are just taking in common GCs, and sometimes spitting out uncommon/rare wire and plates). So this might also be another avenue to upgrading quality - you get a chance when you craft the item, and another chance when you recycle it to get better components. Or you could use productivity in the assemblers, just making normal quality chips, and quality modules in the recyclers to sometimes get upgraded components but without any net loss if you've got 300% productivity going in.
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Sep 10, 2023 08:26
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They say in the post that the most productivity you can get in an un-modded assembler is +100%. The 300% limit is an extra safeguard against mods accidentally making positive recycling loops when they add more module slots or more powerful modules.
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Sep 10, 2023 17:46
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Yes, but you can put quality modules in recyclers, so if you could get an assembler to +300% productivity then put quality modules a recycler recycling its output, you could increase quality levels at no cost in materials. However, the amount of electricity and pollution would definitely be noticeable, not to mention that doing this at scale would require you to already have the ability to produce tons of legendary modules and have UPS to waste.
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Sep 10, 2023 17:53
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If you could, yes, but you can't. Four legendary productivity module 3's in an an assembling machine 3 gives +100% productivity bonus.
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Sep 10, 2023 20:06
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I mean, you very easily could do that with a mod and that's why the developer has put a hard upper limit of 300% on productivity even though it's impossible to achieve in the base game.
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Sep 10, 2023 20:19
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We’re all theory-crafting here but I imagine the first thing one should try to do with quality modules is produce higher quality quality modules. Ore probably can’t be improved quality, which means if you want to produce high-tier end results, you will want good quality modules in everything. Maybe!
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Sep 11, 2023 05:58
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Teledahn posted:We’re all theory-crafting here but I imagine the first thing one should try to do with quality modules is produce higher quality quality modules. That's why you only unlock the ability to make uncommon and rare quality stuff at the start, so you don't spend a billion hours trying to grind legendary quality modules. But it also kind of taps into something some mods like Py do that haven't been in vanilla - "I need to set this up now and let it slowly do stuff so I can come back later after it bootstraps"
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Sep 11, 2023 06:09
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KillHour posted:But it also kind of taps into something some mods like Py do that haven't been in vanilla - "I need to set this up now and let it slowly do stuff so I can come back later after it bootstraps" these usually burn me pretty badly in mods, because I don't actually realize they're that kind of recipe until I need the product they create so instead of setting up production an hour before i need it, i set up production when i need it and have to wait an hour for it to ramp up
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Sep 11, 2023 07:21
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Vanilla has that...but it's basically only a kovarex loop.
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Sep 11, 2023 08:01
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Teledahn posted:We’re all theory-crafting here but I imagine the first thing one should try to do with quality modules is produce higher quality quality modules. I think, at the start, you only really want quality modules in end-products that can't be productivitied. Getting that 1% chance at a rare seems fine to start, if the goal is to have a small batch of rare buildings to eventually bring onto the space platform. On the other hand, while you would be happy with 99 normal robots per rare personal construction bot, you don't need 99 non-rare personal roboports. So, maybe what you start with is putting quality one level down from your target personal product, so that you can use the intermediates elsewhere when you miss the roll and just siphon the rare ones for a single guaranteed craft. And then after that, you propagate quality modules down the chain as you switch to higher quality throughout the factory. The balance between productivity and quality seems like a non-trivial problem. It will probably end up being a mix of both in an ideal factory.
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Sep 11, 2023 11:23
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I just re-read the Quality FFF and it reminded me of a few things: - Quality will not decrease, unless you use speed modules - Input quality is base output quality, except if quality modules are slotted you have a chance of upgrades. - Mixed quality inputs are not mentioned, probably not permitted. - - Higher tier quality modules and the recycler are gated behind other planets. I was wondering how one might go about getting higher tier low tech components. If I wanted a legendary gear I think one would have to be producing epic gears with a chance of upgrades. I am imagining using some base recipes (can we recycle copper wire back into plates?) and caching the high tier raw material for use in the good stuff. There was also a tease about alternate production methods in that FFF so we definitely have more exciting things to come. Teledahn fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 15:53
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They said in the update they can go everywhere except beacons, unlike productivity which can only go in intermediates. Also, they don't say when the higher level modules unlock, but rather that the actual rarities themselves are locked behind specific planets.
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Sep 11, 2023 16:09
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Well they did say quality 1 was at the same tech level as the other tier 1 modules. But I don't think we know what the overall tech tree is going to look like - with new science packs being tied to the other planets, but rocket launches being required sooner (and likely made easier) the tree as a whole is probably getting a shakeup. I'm not really sure how they're going to gate higher quality outputs behind later planets in an intuitive way. The only way I can think of that fits with their general design philosophy is that assemblers (and chem plants, etc.) have a maximum quality output, and you'll need higher tier machines, gated behind extraplanetary tech, to raise that cap.
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Sep 11, 2023 16:50
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I can see another easy way, which would be to adjust recipes to require resources only available on later planets. Ham fisted, but easy.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:03
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I guess I'd expect them to just be gated behind a tech. It doesn't seem that different than stuff like inserter capacity or boosted robot speed.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:08
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Yeah I think it's going to be quality 1 unlocks uncommon and rare, quality 2 unlocks epic, and quality 3 unlocks legendary. e - not the modules themselves, mind you. I'm betting they just control the upgrade %, but the tech itself will unlock the possibility for higher qualities to be crafted, both deliberately and by chance. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 17:31
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Teledahn posted:I was wondering how one might go about getting higher tier low tech components. If I wanted a legendary gear I think one would have to be producing epic gears with a chance of upgrades. I am imagining using some base recipes (can we recycle copper wire back into plates?) and caching the high tier raw material for use in the good stuff. More or less. Recyclers can also have quality modules, so there's presumably a chance when recycling something to upgrade the base materials that come out of it. But pushing for a minimum standard of quality is inherently a lossy proposition; the blog indicated that a full set of regular tier 3 quality modules gives you a 10% chance at higher quality materials so starting from raw mining, at best you're going to get 25% greens (and a commensurately smaller percentage of blues, purples, and oranges) assuming a full set of legendary quality modules in your miner(s).
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Sep 11, 2023 20:17
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Not sure I'm going to like setting up a whole sorting & recycling facility for a mall or whatever because everyone uses EPIC power poles & pipes in their blueprints from now on.
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Sep 11, 2023 20:37
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Surely you can find someone's epic mall blueprint if you are using other people's blueprints with epic power poles. Anyway they said the game is still very competitive to finish without quality so you shouldn't see public blueprints go epic exclusively. If there's things like quality components coming out of recyclers that's actually verging on recycle process dynamics and needing to spin a unit up to get good products from it and I'm getting back on board with quality being an outlet to make it feel like you're running a factory and not just a big electrical circuit trace that spits out juice.
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Sep 11, 2023 20:48
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Easy fix for blueprints is a checkbox to ignore quality.
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Sep 11, 2023 20:57
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Because Factorio is so deterministic, could this mean the return of the Warcraft 2 "Lumber Bug?" Will speedrun players habitually whack the iron ore on the ground two or three times before building their first Assembler, in hopes of getting a lucky roll on their first items?  (Not likely, but the concept amused me.)
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Sep 11, 2023 20:59
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Gadzuko posted:Easy fix for blueprints is a checkbox to ignore quality.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:02
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Yeah, I really feel electrical poles should be quality neutral (i.e. just more health) like belts and pipes. Yet they say they get more reach and service area with each level.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:07
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zedprime posted:Then you'll have unpowered things if someone did a max packing legendary power pole build and you slot in a mere common power pole. Ah, yeah and ratios would get all messed up. Well, either way I kinda doubt that non-quality bps will be hard to find. It will just vastly increase the variety of possible solutions.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:09
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I don't hate the idea of quality but man do they need some better names for the levels. The color scheme and icons are fine, just call them "superior" or "flawless" or something more suited to the factory/production theme.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:13
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The cats out of the bag, I will forever only refer to it by epic and legendary.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:17
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Did someone say [Thunderfury, Blessed Power Pole of the Factory Maker]? I'm hesitantly optimistic about the quality... some of the annoying details of inventory management, but if the Dyson Sphere Program could make it work, I'm sure they'll hammer out the details in the next 11 months.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:38
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They definitely won't make the game not deterministic. Praise be kovarex for smiting third party blueprint users.
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Sep 11, 2023 21:38
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DSP’s approach to their version of Quality is a lot more limited than what’s been described so far, everything works the same regardless of Proliferator level, you just get extra materials (or you’ve knowingly set everything to build faster and know you need to halve all of your line lengths). DSP has nothing like the logic in Factorio which would, say, allow un-sprayed products to be diverted to go through a sprayer again. Yet anyway, we’ll see.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:21
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So if quality maxes at +150% and a full set of quality 3 modules grants 10% upgrade chance, then does that mean you can fill a machine with legendary Q3s for 25%? Because then I can see the metagame swiftly becoming to get a stable source of Q3 Legendaries up as your first foray into touching quality at all, and only then using it in construction of other items.
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Sep 11, 2023 23:54
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First, you can't get Epic or Legendary until you've done a bunch of progress, and I doubt you'll want to wait that long for at least some things, like the huge bonuses to armors, personal equipment, and space platform stuff. Second, putting 4 legendary Q3s into a machine making Q3s will still only give you a 0.4% chance of getting a legendary Q3 if you're using un-upgraded input materials. It's not as easy as you make it sound, but yes, much like prod modding your prod modules is a good idea, quality moduling your quality modules will be a good idea. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 00:43
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XkyRauh posted:Because Factorio is so deterministic, could this mean the return of the Warcraft 2 "Lumber Bug?" Will speedrun players habitually whack the iron ore on the ground two or three times before building their first Assembler, in hopes of getting a lucky roll on their first items? I think this is already a thing in seeded runs. Rocks have random contents which depend, I think, on the seed and the frame the rock is mined.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:17
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Potential Hidden 'Fun' quality effect: quality ammo increases damage, but there's at least one type of "ammo" where this is redundant: nukes. Quality should instead increase their blast radius and, most importantly, not mention this in any tooltip  (not that you're likely to fire a quality nuke on accident, but still)
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Sep 12, 2023 01:55
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