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Sarcopenia
May 14, 2014
Lol he's a 26 year old man who casually uses the N word. She's 18 years old and dropped the n word multiple times like 4 years ago at the ripe age of 14. He sure showed her.

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sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
Oh yea that was a part of it too wasn't it? It was like some ancient video of her and the main 'backlash' before he ran in was just 'alright but the whole 'eh whatever' attitude is kinda lame could at least acknowledge that's a dumb thing' and then he made it into a huge thing where he was literally following her around in the real world shouting a racial slur that applies to neither of them at a girl nearly 10 years younger than him.

It was, as the kids say, a bad look.

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)
youtubers... are... awful???

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
Let's talk about literally anything else besides a weird goblin man shouting racial slurs at a child

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z0mOpL9bMY

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007

Just for the sake of accuracy - Tana Mongeau tweeted out unprovoked at IDubz telling him to kill himself over using the N-word. Videos surface of her saying it herself from a couple of years back, IDubz pays to go to a Tana Mongeau meet n greet or whatever, gets a video with her where he says "Say N-word!" and gets kicked out, Tana makes one of her storytime vids exaggerating a whole bunch of things about the event (getting chased around, being gripped onto and stuff like that), Content Cop is released.

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

[quote="“Kim Justice”" post="“477051443”"]
Just for the sake of accuracy - Tana Mongeau tweeted out unprovoked at IDubz telling him to kill himself over using the N-word. Videos surface of her saying it herself from a couple of years back, IDubz pays to go to a Tana Mongeau meet n greet or whatever, gets a video with her where he says “Say N-word!” and gets kicked out, Tana makes one of her storytime vids exaggerating a whole bunch of things about the event (getting chased around, being gripped onto and stuff like that), Content Cop is released.
[/quote]

How long until these two join a local nazi group?

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)
youtubers love creating drama together because it gives them more views

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth

Kim Justice posted:

Just for the sake of accuracy - Tana Mongeau tweeted out unprovoked at IDubz telling him to kill himself over using the N-word. Videos surface of her saying it herself from a couple of years back, IDubz pays to go to a Tana Mongeau meet n greet or whatever, gets a video with her where he says "Say N-word!" and gets kicked out, Tana makes one of her storytime vids exaggerating a whole bunch of things about the event (getting chased around, being gripped onto and stuff like that), Content Cop is released.

No that is fair to put out the actual timeline and all, good to know the chain of events that happened.

Feels like the thing still boils down to 'this could have not happened if you didn't go follow someone younger than you to say friend of the family at her' but I didn't know her kill yourself tweet came first.

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007

sexpig by night posted:

No that is fair to put out the actual timeline and all, good to know the chain of events that happened.

Feels like the thing still boils down to 'this could have not happened if you didn't go follow someone younger than you to say friend of the family at her' but I didn't know her kill yourself tweet came first.



Gotta get that p

I Before E
Jul 2, 2012

sexpig by night posted:

Let's talk about literally anything else besides a weird goblin man shouting racial slurs at a child

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z0mOpL9bMY

The worst part of following SBnation for Jon Bois is getting tricked into watching these intensely unfunny videos

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008

Sarcopenia posted:

Lol he's a 26 year old man who casually uses the N word. She's 18 years old and dropped the n word multiple times like 4 years ago at the ripe age of 14. He sure showed her.

I saw some of that video and boy, these smug libertarians think that casually dropping the n-bomb constantly to "rob it of its meaning" as a way of "fixing racism" are so misguided. You don't fix a word like that, as if continually using it casually robs it of its horrible history and origins. It's probably why some (many?) libertarians think the country would be more efficient if corporations outright ran it, ignoring the industrial revolution and how little human life was, and still is, worth to companies.

Kunster
Dec 24, 2006

Once in a while I do a flip take thinking that yup, at some point there's gonna be a Jon Bois video about this. (Which Felix Biedermann is cooperating on) (And it's probably gonna be a minidocumentary rather than a comparatively lighthearted Pretty Good ... that you can watch atm at least.)

Kunster fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Oct 4, 2017

cat doter
Jul 27, 2006



gonna need more cheese...australia has a lot of crackers
why would idubz feel he has the high ground on anyone when he constantly throws out the word human being to describe people he thinks are dumb and bad, that's like poo poo 14 year old kids do and eventually grow out of

Max Wilco
Jan 23, 2012

I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

Terrible Opinions posted:

Well yeah. The Bed of Chaos should have been cut due to poor design. Similar to how the proper way to play Fallout 3 is with the mod to skip the terrible intro.

Controversial opinion: The Fallout 3 intro isn't that bad. It's boring and contrived, but if you're new to the series or the genre, it does an decent job of teaching you the basics.

The intro to Fallout 2, however, is awful. That was my very first experience with the Fallout series. The Fallout 3 intro might be bad, but at least it's not much of an effort to get through. The Temple of Trials is slog to get through, and if you've never played a game like Fallout 2 before, you'd have no clue as to what you were doing wrong. I think the key issue is that it doesn't adapt to your character build. When you need to go through the cave at the start of Fallout 1, you get items in your inventory that correspond to the skills you tagged (ex. Tag the Medicine Skill and you have some additional stimpacks or a first-aid kit). Fallout 2 doesn't do that, Fallout 2 goes, "Oh, what's that? You tagged Small Guns as one of your skills? You went with diplomatic skills mainly? Well, there are no guns in the Temple of Trials, and the only guy you can negotiate with is at the end. Have fun dodging traps and punching ants with a poor chance to hit."

But I believe there was also a mod to skip it, though I can't seem to find it at the moment.

Harrow posted:

I was all set to argue that skipping content in games is contrary to the entire medium but then I thought about it for a second. I can skip to any page I want to in a book, or fast-forward as much as I want in a movie. It might impact my enjoyment. I might not understand what's going on. But I can do it.

So I don't know. Maybe the inherent interactivity of games means that making "I can't beat this hard thing"-skipping a standard feature would undermine the whole endeavor even more than it does in other media, but I don't know. I'm not as convinced of that as I was before I started typing this post, honestly. Any argument I can come up with comes down to "but the player will have a worse experience," and I can apply that to literally any other medium, too. Would standardized content-skipping be even worse because of what that content is in games?

This isn't really an argument and I recognize I have no coherent point, but I guess the whole thing is a lot less clear-cut than I originally treated it as.

One of the things that made me ponder about skipping content and whatnot is when the Enhanced Editions of Baldur's Gate got an update that added 'Story Mode', a feature you could toggle on where you're basically invulnerable and can power through enemy encounters without issue. It actually first appeared in Icewind Dale, and at the time, I thought it was more appropriate for Baldur's Gate, but I don't really feel the same way.

I didn't play the BG games back when they were new, and when I first tried to play them, I had a horrible time. I had to get help from the Infinity Engine thread before I was able to get a decent grasp on combat and everything. Even now, I still haven't finished BG2:EE, and the Story Mode function is tempting just so I can get to the end, but I'd honestly rather try to finish the game legitimately.

The problem is that I don't really understand why you'd play through Baldur's Gate on Story Mode in the first place. The appeal of the Infinity Engine games is that (for the most part), they did an excellent job of replicating 2E AD&D, and gave you the ability to create multiple characters build and have different party setups. On Normal difficulty, I find the game pretty hard to get through, so it amazes me that people have made difficulty mods like Ascension or Sword Coast Stratagems that make the game even harder, yet still manage to break it.

With Story Mode, though, it's not really about skipping combat, but it seems to render the rest of the majority of the game moot. With the boosts you get, you don't have to worry about gaining levels, but you also don't have to make a big deal about the type of character you create. There's no issue of making sure you party is properly equipped, or whether you need more spells or anything to make it through the next dungeon. Hell, you can probably skip most of the dungeon because you don't need the experience or gear you get from them (maybe the gold, though). At that point, it seems like you're just shuffling your party through the maps from one plot point to another.

On the other hand, I also have the Enhanced Edition of Planescape Torment, and that game I was planning on trying the Story Mode, since PS:T has been criticized in the past for having poor combat compared to the other Infinity Engine games.


There was this defense (also from Rock Paper Shotgun) that makes a couple of good points
, but I still take issue with the whole prospect. It's less "Get good", but more, "If you don't like it, why are you even here?" If the prospect of playing a game is too much of a bother, then why not save your money and watch a play-through online? I know that doesn't perfectly replicate the experience of playing it yourself, and obviously you don't have the option of making choices in the game, but why spend money on something you don't want to put effort in? If you cheat your way past an annoying boss, or some enemy encounter that you weren't prepared for, I'm not going to hold it against you; I just don't get why you'd want to trivialize most of the experience.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008

cat doter posted:

why would idubz feel he has the high ground on anyone when he constantly throws out the word human being to describe people he thinks are dumb and bad, that's like poo poo 14 year old kids do and eventually grow out of

Once you eat the human cake, nothing is the same anymore.


:nws: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Vuw-burI0 :nws:

DoubleCakes
Jan 14, 2015

I was originally going to make a post in defense of Fantano's allegedly "alt-right" comedy channel thatistheplan, but criticisms leveled at it have got me rethinking the harmlessness of the channel. I like that style of humour; that super surreal, hyper edited nonsense video. I don't think any piece of media can be completely divorced from politics but I do think some things can be less political than others, including surrealist comedy that sometimes uses mean-spirited memes. But if meme reviews started to get back at the SJWs as Fader accuses so, that means a lot. That means that thatistheplan is very political and its politics are, I think, pretty rotten.

Another thing, Fantano made a video where he explained why he didn't use the N-word but as the Fader article pointed out he used that word in at least one of his thatistheplan videos. He doesn't say it out loud, but it's in those videos and I think if you used it in meme then you kind of have "said" it, or at least used it with your "voice". Maybe Fantano thinking that using it in an edgy thatistheplan video doesn't count, but it's weird to come out and say you don't use that word when you, well, do.

I had no idea that Fantano appeared on Sargon's streams, or at least I had forgotten about it. Up to that Fader article I only remembered that Fantano had some chummy words with Sargon over Twitter and that Fantano appeared on that Questions White Men Have For SJWs video. I understand that it's important to listen to other viewpoints and even be friends with people who don't have the exact same beliefs as you but maybe someone can be such a dirtbag that maybe you wouldn't want to be friends with them and enable how vile they can be? That's something that came to me in that article is when Sam Hyde said all those things about beating Lena Dunham and Fantano just laughed. I'm sure there's a context around it that I'm missing so I won't rag on that too much. Fantano seems like an enabler.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

Kim Justice posted:

Idubbbz releases a new Content Cop and gets the #1 trending video worldwide. Jesus christ, dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bukzXzsG77o

It's great. I love his destruction of these YouTubers.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012

Max Wilco posted:


There was this defense (also from Rock Paper Shotgun) that makes a couple of good points
, but I still take issue with the whole prospect. It's less "Get good", but more, "If you don't like it, why are you even here?" If the prospect of playing a game is too much of a bother, then why not save your money and watch a play-through online? I know that doesn't perfectly replicate the experience of playing it yourself, and obviously you don't have the option of making choices in the game, but why spend money on something you don't want to put effort in? If you cheat your way past an annoying boss, or some enemy encounter that you weren't prepared for, I'm not going to hold it against you; I just don't get why you'd want to trivialize most of the experience.

Yeah, I think that's closest to my personal take.

It comes back to that "Dark Souls easy mode" argument again. I'm not super opposed to it, but I think if such a thing were to exist, like if there was a rereleased Dark Souls Ultra HD Edition and it came with an easy mode, most people who wanted that easy mode would be disappointed. Those aren't games with rich stories, or where exploring is its own reward. Without the tension inherent in the game's unwillingness to pull punches, I think a first playthrough would lose a lot of what makes it satisfying. Second and future playthroughs of any Souls game are always really different experiences and usually a player's going to have a much easier time, but that comes with the satisfaction that it's your own knowledge of the game that's making it easier for you--you've replaced the satisfaction of surviving tense situations with the satisfaction of your own system mastery. An easy mode would be like that easier second playthrough, but with neither source of satisfaction. Again, go ahead and add it--I don't think it'd hurt anyone--but I think that it would ultimately be a disappointing experience for all these players who've heard about how cool the Souls games are but couldn't push past the initial challenge.

Those are a unique situation, though. Most single-player games have more sources of satisfaction, most of them have different ones, so it's not really comparable. I totally understand the desire for a "no-effort combat" or even "outright skip combat" option in something like a Bioware game. I might not love their stories myself, but there's still interactivity in that part of the game. There's a reason to want to be in the driver's seat there, even if you're not into the shooting in Mass Effect or the RPG combat in Dragon Age.

But looking at something like Uncharted--again, I totally get the inclusion of an easy mode, because you're still in control and the shooting is an increasingly less-important part of the game with each installment anyway. But an option where you just outright skip the shooting, or maybe even just have completely automatic climbing (instead of the game's already semi-automatic climbing) wouldn't make sense to me. There'd functionally be no difference between that and just watching a playthrough on YouTube except that you paid money for it. What's the point of being the one holding the controller in the first place?

And even then, my argument kind of stumbles if you compare it to any other medium. Nothing would stop you from turning past a boring chapter in a book, or just skipping straight to the end. You could fast-forward or rewind all over the place in a movie. You're likely to ruin some parts of the experience for yourself if you do it on your first time, but nothing mechanically stops you. Games are sort of unique in that most of them don't have an option like that. They're also unique in that it'd be an option that would need to be consciously included, rather than just a function of the physical (or digital) medium the story is included in, so that's another wrinkle.

Max Wilco
Jan 23, 2012

I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

Harrow posted:

Yeah, I think that's closest to my personal take.

It comes back to that "Dark Souls easy mode" argument again. I'm not super opposed to it, but I think if such a thing were to exist, like if there was a rereleased Dark Souls Ultra HD Edition and it came with an easy mode, most people who wanted that easy mode would be disappointed. Those aren't games with rich stories, or where exploring is its own reward. Without the tension inherent in the game's unwillingness to pull punches, I think a first playthrough would lose a lot of what makes it satisfying. Second and future playthroughs of any Souls game are always really different experiences and usually a player's going to have a much easier time, but that comes with the satisfaction that it's your own knowledge of the game that's making it easier for you--you've replaced the satisfaction of surviving tense situations with the satisfaction of your own system mastery. An easy mode would be like that easier second playthrough, but with neither source of satisfaction. Again, go ahead and add it--I don't think it'd hurt anyone--but I think that it would ultimately be a disappointing experience for all these players who've heard about how cool the Souls games are but couldn't push past the initial challenge.

Those are a unique situation, though. Most single-player games have more sources of satisfaction, most of them have different ones, so it's not really comparable. I totally understand the desire for a "no-effort combat" or even "outright skip combat" option in something like a Bioware game. I might not love their stories myself, but there's still interactivity in that part of the game. There's a reason to want to be in the driver's seat there, even if you're not into the shooting in Mass Effect or the RPG combat in Dragon Age.

But looking at something like Uncharted--again, I totally get the inclusion of an easy mode, because you're still in control and the shooting is an increasingly less-important part of the game with each installment anyway. But an option where you just outright skip the shooting, or maybe even just have completely automatic climbing (instead of the game's already semi-automatic climbing) wouldn't make sense to me. There'd functionally be no difference between that and just watching a playthrough on YouTube except that you paid money for it. What's the point of being the one holding the controller in the first place?

And even then, my argument kind of stumbles if you compare it to any other medium. Nothing would stop you from turning past a boring chapter in a book, or just skipping straight to the end. You could fast-forward or rewind all over the place in a movie. You're likely to ruin some parts of the experience for yourself if you do it on your first time, but nothing mechanically stops you. Games are sort of unique in that most of them don't have an option like that. They're also unique in that it'd be an option that would need to be consciously included, rather than just a function of the physical (or digital) medium the story is included in, so that's another wrinkle.

You can skip boring chapters in a book, or fast-forward through scenes in a movie, and I'd argue that's why director's cuts or abridged versions exists; to create a more succinct or improved version of something

If they were going to do a re-release of Dark Souls, and there was an option of modifying parts of the game, it would be an opportunity to fix encounters like the Bed of Chaos or the Anor Londo archers. You could tweak stats and values so that you'd level up faster or enemies took less damage, but redesigning some of the more poorly conceived encounters in the game would work much better.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

Kunster posted:

Once in a while I do a flip take thinking that yup, at some point there's gonna be a Jon Bois video about this. (Which Felix Biedermann is cooperating on) (And it's probably gonna be a minidocumentary rather than a comparatively lighthearted Pretty Good ... that you can watch atm at least.)

god i loving hate fedor emilianenko

Max Wilco
Jan 23, 2012

I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...
https://twitter.com/botherer/status/915486716647149568
https://twitter.com/botherer/status/915488598790635520
https://twitter.com/botherer/status/915487333100802048

'Gameplay' is a banned term on Rock Paper Shotgun. :psyduck:

Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Oct 4, 2017

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.

Of course there are games where that type of thing wouldn't work. Things like The Binding of Isaac, The Witness, and Civilization are too tight and mechanically focused to benefit from any sort of skipping and if there's a certain aspect of them that you'd want to skip you'd probably not enjoy playing those at all. Same with rhythm games which is the main type of game that I enjoy playing.

That aside there are many games that have some aspects of them that I love but some that I can't stand. Like Fallout New Vegas, it is for sure one of my favorite games because of the exploration, dialogue, and stories, but the combat sucks and I don't care about it. Same with the new Deus Ex games. My favorite parts of them were talking to people, exploring, and reading peoples emails. I do enjoy the stealth in those games but not nearly as much as just exploring the overworlds.

Then there's also all the games that have segments that play completely differently from the rest of the game and is required to beat to continue. Not infrequent that you need to finish first in some race or something.

The main reason I'd want something like that in more games is because it'd piss off the self-described Hardcore Gamers something fierce and their collective meltdown would be glorious.

Annointed
Mar 2, 2013

watho posted:

The main reason I'd want something like that in more games is because it'd piss off the self-described Hardcore Gamers something fierce and their collective meltdown would be glorious.

Mostly this, plus the fact that Hardcore Gamers tm have a tendency of thinking that being suckered by companies makes you cool. Alot of them would be upset because children could finally play some of these game, not like they were kids too or something.

Hbomberguy
Jul 4, 2009

[culla=big red]TufFEE did nO THINg W̡RA̸NG[/read]


Max Wilco posted:

'Gameplay' is a banned term on Rock Paper Shotgun. :psyduck:
Every aspect of a game is gameplay, in some ways including discussion of the game - learning the solution to the radio puzzle in MGS on the playground was part and parcel of the experience of MGS, but the game was in the console at home the whole time. The experience of a game's base elements is more important than the elements themselves, and that's not something measurable in any objective fashion.

In almost (covering myself, I know I say it sometimes) every context it gets used in, it ends up segmenting aspects of games out in ways that are ultimately damaging to critical perspective.
"I love this film. It has great moviewatch, I'd give it nine out of ten in moviewatch, which makes it a 95%, even if the sound is only a seven out of ten and the lighting is an eight."

If RPS want to avoid that mess, more power to em. When people talk about the basic elements of a game's mechanics, they simply use a much better word for it: Mechanics.

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007


Jesus christ...I mean, I get wanting to downplay certain words that might be a little overused and stale and result in fairly empty words like "the gameplay in this game is really good", but banned outright? That just seems silly.

RPS has ok stuff sometimes, but I'm really not a fan of John Walker and the way he goes about things. Stuff like his infamous Peter Molyneux interview make him look like he thinks he's Gaming Journalism's version of Jeremy Paxman or something who's there to ask people the tough questions and all that poo poo, but he usually ends up coming off as bad as the subject matter most of the time - kinda just a flat-track bully who isn't as smart as he thinks he is. When you literally start an interview of by asking someone if they think they're a pathological liar or not, it doesn't seem like you're interested in having a constructive conversation...

Max Wilco
Jan 23, 2012

I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

Hbomberguy posted:

Every aspect of a game is gameplay, in some ways including discussion of the game - learning the solution to the radio puzzle in MGS on the playground was part and parcel of the experience of MGS, but the game was in the console at home the whole time. The experience of a game's base elements is more important than the elements themselves, and that's not something measurable in any objective fashion.

In almost (covering myself, I know I say it sometimes) every context it gets used in, it ends up segmenting aspects of games out in ways that are ultimately damaging to critical perspective.
"I love this film. It has great moviewatch, I'd give it nine out of ten in moviewatch, which makes it a 95%, even if the sound is only a seven out of ten and the lighting is an eight."

If RPS want to avoid that mess, more power to em. When people talk about the basic elements of a game's mechanics, they simply use a much better word for it: Mechanics.

https://twitter.com/botherer/status/915285340906311685

Kim Justice posted:

Jesus christ...I mean, I get wanting to downplay certain words that might be a little overused and stale and result in fairly empty words like "the gameplay in this game is really good", but banned outright? That just seems silly.

RPS has ok stuff sometimes, but I'm really not a fan of John Walker and the way he goes about things. Stuff like his infamous Peter Molyneux interview make him look like he thinks he's Gaming Journalism's version of Jeremy Paxman or something who's there to ask people the tough questions and all that poo poo, but he usually ends up coming off as bad as the subject matter most of the time - kinda just a flat-track bully who isn't as smart as he thinks he is. When you literally start an interview of by asking someone if they think they're a pathological liar or not, it doesn't seem like you're interested in having a constructive conversation...

The conspiratorial part of my brain makes me wonder if that interview was made up, since I think Molyneux would have just hung up after hearing that.

Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Oct 5, 2017

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.


it's good to avoid meaningless terms

Hbomberguy
Jul 4, 2009

[culla=big red]TufFEE did nO THINg W̡RA̸NG[/read]


Walker's interview with Molyneux was utterly atrocious, but he's basically on the money in a lot of the tweets you're linking here, Wilco.

RPS is historically a really good website for exploring aspects of games that get utterly ignored when you start trying to boil it down to what, in Japanese criticism, is simply called shisutemu, or 'system'. Lots of Japanese games writing is frightfully useless for understanding if a game is fun or good or what the experience of playing it is like, because it's looking so 'objectively' at what you literally do in a game that it becomes, well, a description of a product. And games are not cars or hamburgers. Much modern japanese auteur-ism is centred around railing against the shisutemu approach. SWERY, Suda, Yoko Taro and Kojima to name just as few.

It's not surprising that RPS is home to one of the greatest gaming essays ever written, Quintin Smith's three-part analysis of Pathologic, which not only never uses the term 'gameplay' in thousands of words, but even contends that what makes it so fantastic is that it challenges the limits of the traditional gaming experience by focusing on giving the player negative emotions. In the comments, just under ten years ago, people are angry that he didn't talk about the gameplay. Enough about the game's power to make you feel the brutality of failing to save a dying town, what are the shisutemu, Quintin?

People really like games, but appear to have extreme trouble articulating why, and consequently hold very hard onto terms they think are good for explaining the value of a work that affected them. But that doesn't mean the terms are useful or good, and maybe games critics ought to be trying to find betters ones. I mean, maybe. Writing about games is kind of the thing they do.

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007

Max Wilco posted:


The conspiratorial part of my brain makes me wonder if that interview was made up, since I think Molyneux would have just hung up after hearing that.

That would be funny if true...but nah, Molyneux isn't ever one to shut up easily, even in the face of criticism. I got what Walker was trying to do there and that in many ways the interview was a double-barrelled shot after years of the classic Molly overpromises, the Molyneux Cycle, and the fairly easy interviews...that and, of course, he'd just royally screwed the pooch to perhaps a greater degree than he'd ever done before. If he'd still been with EA or Microsoft, Walker would have never had the chance to ask that question...but god, it was a bad read.

My favourite writing on RPS was always Cara Ellison's. Seeing as how I don't think she writes much about games anymore, I don't have much reason to go there...does Rab Florence still write board game stuff for them?

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything



Fun Shoe

Kim Justice posted:

My favourite writing on RPS was always Cara Ellison's. Seeing as how I don't think she writes much about games anymore, I don't have much reason to go there...does Rab Florence still write board game stuff for them?

Rab left a while back. I think Cara's on her way out too.

I like a lot of the writers on RPS. Unfortunately the two I can't stand are Alec Meer and Walker himself and they are the biggest contributors.

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007

Mokinokaro posted:

Rab left a while back. I think Cara's on her way out too.

Not surprising I guess. I hadn't heard much about Cara since she took a break a couple of years back and Rab's been doing Consolevania again (which I still need to catch up with, ffs).

As for some more of that spicy content featuring old titans of UK Games Journalism (although it's not exactly about video games) - Paul "Mr. Biffo" Rose of Digitiser fame has been doing a fair amount of bits with his "Found Footage" series, which is good if you like weirdness and want to know more about a great man named Goujon John.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woOkBo_26lA

Max Wilco
Jan 23, 2012

I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

Hbomberguy posted:

Walker's interview with Molyneux was utterly atrocious, but he's basically on the money in a lot of the tweets you're linking here, Wilco.

RPS is historically a really good website for exploring aspects of games that get utterly ignored when you start trying to boil it down to what, in Japanese criticism, is simply called shisutemu, or 'system'. Lots of Japanese games writing is frightfully useless for understanding if a game is fun or good or what the experience of playing it is like, because it's looking so 'objectively' at what you literally do in a game that it becomes, well, a description of a product. And games are not cars or hamburgers. Much modern japanese auteur-ism is centred around railing against the shisutemu approach. SWERY, Suda, Yoko Taro and Kojima to name just as few.

It's not surprising that RPS is home to one of the greatest gaming essays ever written, Quintin Smith's three-part analysis of Pathologic, which not only never uses the term 'gameplay' in thousands of words, but even contends that what makes it so fantastic is that it challenges the limits of the traditional gaming experience by focusing on giving the player negative emotions. In the comments, just under ten years ago, people are angry that he didn't talk about the gameplay. Enough about the game's power to make you feel the brutality of failing to save a dying town, what are the shisutemu, Quintin?

People really like games, but appear to have extreme trouble articulating why, and consequently hold very hard onto terms they think are good for explaining the value of a work that affected them. But that doesn't mean the terms are useful or good, and maybe games critics ought to be trying to find betters ones. I mean, maybe. Writing about games is kind of the thing they do.

It was a very good website. The problem is that a lot of the better writers aren't there anymore. Quintin Smith hasn't written anything for RPS for a few years now, and one of the other writers I think does comics now (unless I'm mixing things up). Amusingly, one of the very first things I read about Fallout: New Vegas (which is one of my favorite games), was the review by Quintin, where he compared it unfavorably to Fallout 3.

I haven't read Quintin's write-up on Pathologic, but I have read about it over on HG101, but regardless, I was still intrigued by it and wanted to check it out regardless of how it played.

Here's the thing, though. There are a lot of games where you can gush about the setting, story, theming, concepts and whatnot, and people can still appreciate it. However, for a lot of people, it comes down to the question of, "But is it fun to play?" Even though I've read about how great Pathologic is, I've been skeptical about actually playing (despite the fact that I bought it as part of a sale a while ago). It's a very slow and difficult game, and that can be off-putting for some people.

From the HG101 article:

quote:

A lot of people are put off when reading this, arguing the game doesn't sound like fun. Mario is fun. But videogames can cover, quite genuinely, absolutely anything. Not all games need to be fun - this is a limited mentality which we need to break out of. It might not be fun in the traditional sense, but there can be tremendous pleasure in experiencing a false, orchestrated desperation, safe in the knowledge it isn't actually real. Pathologc is one of only a few precious games which comes anywhere close to being a facsimile of real disaster.

If someone still don't want to play Pathologic after reading about, then does that reflect poorly on them? It's been said that people largely play games for escapism or for empowerment, so if you chose to play Super Mario over Pathologic, then does that paint you as some sort of philistine?

Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Oct 5, 2017

Kunster
Dec 24, 2006

Hbomberguy posted:

People really like games, but appear to have extreme trouble articulating why, and consequently hold very hard onto terms they think are good for explaining the value of a work that affected them. But that doesn't mean the terms are useful or good, and maybe games critics ought to be trying to find betters ones. I mean, maybe. Writing about games is kind of the thing they do.

Sometimes you get really weird stuff like the whole "Tetris is too simple to be a videogame" that was floating around a few youtube folk, despite like a mod said a while back, it being the most videogamey of videogames. Even if Botherer is going thru an approach that is akin to well

https://twitter.com/purinharumaki/status/909015500390199296

It is worth considering that he's trying to find a way for "gameplay" to be approached a bit more complex than just "does it play good"?

Augus
Mar 9, 2015


Hbomberguy posted:

Every aspect of a game is gameplay, in some ways including discussion of the game - learning the solution to the radio puzzle in MGS on the playground was part and parcel of the experience of MGS, but the game was in the console at home the whole time. The experience of a game's base elements is more important than the elements themselves, and that's not something measurable in any objective fashion.

In almost (covering myself, I know I say it sometimes) every context it gets used in, it ends up segmenting aspects of games out in ways that are ultimately damaging to critical perspective.
"I love this film. It has great moviewatch, I'd give it nine out of ten in moviewatch, which makes it a 95%, even if the sound is only a seven out of ten and the lighting is an eight."

If RPS want to avoid that mess, more power to em. When people talk about the basic elements of a game's mechanics, they simply use a much better word for it: Mechanics.

yeah I myself have kinda drifted away from using the term "gameplay" in situations where I'm really referring to mechanics or combat. also I've moved away from using "story" when what I really mean is "cutscenes", because really the entire game is a part of the story.

Solitair
Feb 18, 2014

TODAY'S GONNA BE A GOOD MOTHERFUCKIN' DAY!!!

e X posted:

I vaguely remember a dude who developed an entire philosophy, somehow based around Kierkegaard, who also had a weird hatred of the concept of gameplay, Anybody know about who I am talking?

I forgot how much icycalm's pseudo-intellectual bullshit pissed me off. I've never seen him on Youtube, though, so I have no idea what he's up to now.

Hbomberguy posted:

Every aspect of a game is gameplay, in some ways including discussion of the game - learning the solution to the radio puzzle in MGS on the playground was part and parcel of the experience of MGS, but the game was in the console at home the whole time. The experience of a game's base elements is more important than the elements themselves, and that's not something measurable in any objective fashion.

In almost (covering myself, I know I say it sometimes) every context it gets used in, it ends up segmenting aspects of games out in ways that are ultimately damaging to critical perspective.
"I love this film. It has great moviewatch, I'd give it nine out of ten in moviewatch, which makes it a 95%, even if the sound is only a seven out of ten and the lighting is an eight."

If RPS want to avoid that mess, more power to em. When people talk about the basic elements of a game's mechanics, they simply use a much better word for it: Mechanics.

IIRC, icycalm's gameplay argument was basically, "Gameplay is the only thing that matters. Instead of saying that a game has good gameplay, people should say a game is good."

Hbomberguy posted:

It's not surprising that RPS is home to one of the greatest gaming essays ever written, Quintin Smith's three-part analysis of Pathologic, which not only never uses the term 'gameplay' in thousands of words, but even contends that what makes it so fantastic is that it challenges the limits of the traditional gaming experience by focusing on giving the player negative emotions. In the comments, just under ten years ago, people are angry that he didn't talk about the gameplay. Enough about the game's power to make you feel the brutality of failing to save a dying town, what are the shisutemu, Quintin?

Those articles are fantastic. They were my introduction to Pathologic.

Conal Cochran
Dec 2, 2013

Kim Justice posted:

Idubbbz releases a new Content Cop and gets the #1 trending video worldwide. Jesus christ, dude.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bukzXzsG77o

Learning that youtubers I've never even heard of make around $60,000 a month made me really re-assess my view of internet celebrities. I thought that was what Pewdiepie money would have been. So I checked to see how much Pewdiepie made and it's $7.4 million a year or around $600,000 a month. And the weirdest part of all is that I found this out from a Forbes article titled "PewDiePie Doesn't Make Anywhere Close To What He Should Be Making"

I'm not saying all youtubers are lazy assholes who need to go out and get a "real job" and I know that this big money thing is still a very small minority of them, but still it's a little strange.

The Vosgian Beast
Aug 13, 2011

Business is slow

Solitair posted:

I forgot how much icycalm's pseudo-intellectual bullshit pissed me off. I've never seen him on Youtube, though, so I have no idea what he's up to now.


IIRC, icycalm's gameplay argument was basically, "Gameplay is the only thing that matters. Instead of saying that a game has good gameplay, people should say a game is good."


Those articles are fantastic. They were my introduction to Pathologic.

Dead in an illegal street racing accident, last I heard

John Murdoch
May 19, 2009

I can tune a fish.

watho posted:

Things like The Binding of Isaac, The Witness, and Civilization are too tight and mechanically focused to benefit from any sort of skipping and if there's a certain aspect of them that you'd want to skip you'd probably not enjoy playing those at all. Same with rhythm games which is the main type of game that I enjoy playing.

Not to nitpick but I'm not so sure The Witness is a great example. You only need to complete something like 1/2 or 2/3rds of the proper goals to enter the endgame, which is very important considering you might not be biologically equipped to tackle the sound and/or color puzzles. The non-linear, exploratory nature of the game also means the whole isn't necessarily harmed if you skip the puzzles you don't like. I guess in the sense of "I hate line drawing puzzles, I would like to skip all of them" you might have a problem though...

Civ comes close to allowing you to skip what you don't like by way of the different victory conditions (and more nebulously the customization options like game pace), but due to the way the AI is hardwired and the lack of mechanical depth in most of the non-military systems, nine times out of ten the game is going to be decided by you weathering Gandhi's military might as you piece together the rocketship rather than inching along the tech tree neck and neck with another peaceful civ.


As an aside, I would love to see more games adopt difficulty sliders ala System Shock 1, where each component of the game can be tuned separately. I think the Silent Hill games had something similar as well.

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007

Conal Cochran posted:

Learning that youtubers I've never even heard of make around $60,000 a month made me really re-assess my view of internet celebrities. I thought that was what Pewdiepie money would have been. So I checked to see how much Pewdiepie made and it's $7.4 million a year or around $600,000 a month. And the weirdest part of all is that I found this out from a Forbes article titled "PewDiePie Doesn't Make Anywhere Close To What He Should Be Making"

I'm not saying all youtubers are lazy assholes who need to go out and get a "real job" and I know that this big money thing is still a very small minority of them, but still it's a little strange.

Big Youtube money is a very small minority, although it might be more people than you think - especially if people are supplementing their ad revenue with sponsorship deals, paid work and what have you...there's also Patreon to add to the mix more and more. Sometimes sponsorships can mean crazy money...a few years back, coin trading was a big thing in FIFA - it wasn't necessarily approved by EA and there was a small risk involved of getting your account banned (inconsequential really), but YouTubers being sponsored by FIFA coin sites made everyone involved an absolute SHITTON of money - we're talking about some folks who were just out of school or maybe still in becoming millionaires through coin sponsorship. FIFA stopped coin trading in the end but still, shows how big sponsors can be.

It's also very important to note that YouTube ad revenue is seasonal like traditional ad rev, and there are certain times when the money's going to be better than others. It's pretty good now as we're heading towards the end of the year, and December is the best month of them all of course -- the rates for ads are big then...generally October, November and December are all going to be pretty good. And naturally January and February straight after are going to be pretty crap as the ad rates sink to their lowest. This works for certain types of sponsorship just mentioned too...and this'll still likely be the case despite all the recent Google/YouTube ad stuff too. Indeed, one of the effects of recent controversial changes such as "limited or no monetisation" has been that, for accounts that aren't as affected by such things, ad revenue is generally up now. Certainly far better than the miserable rates of a couple of months back when no-one was advertising on YT.

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poparena
Oct 31, 2012

Kicking off my October videos with a look at A Nightmare on Elm Street 2 and the state of queer horror cinema.

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