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retpocileh posted:I'm looking to get into one of these games. I see that the OP says CK3 would be the easiest to start with. Would y'all definitely recommend that over EU4 and Vic3? I'm not sure about the others, but EU4 has a thing where you can pay, I think, $5 a month to play the game with all its DLCs. Its, uh, at least 8 years old at this point, maybe more, and has A LOT of DLC, so that may be a good way to check it out without committing too much cash. If you like Socioeconomics Vicky3 seems like its pretty good but also came out last week. It is quite playable but it also has some issues and needs some work before it'll be great.
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Nov 4, 2022 01:08
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I wouldn't worry as much about which is easiest as which fits your fantasy/favorite time period/desired focus etc. more. WW2? Character-focused gameplay? Socioeconomic supply chain building? A mishmash of every sci-fi trope out there? That said CK3 is a pretty easy recommendation because I think lots of people can find something in characters as a core concept. Also it's relatively polished and on sale multiple places right now (plus Gamepass, as mentioned).
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Nov 4, 2022 01:12
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Tomn posted:Picking Paradox games based on what's easiest to get into is a bit of a trap, I think - they're all complex, but they're all complex in different ways because they're focusing on different things, one game isn't really going to "ease you into" another. i do think there's a paradox-brained design thinking, even if that's fading as they get bigger and split into separate teams. for example, even if you know what that "casus belli" means you need to have a specific reason to go to war, it can be a shock to go from civilization where you keep what you kill, to paradox games where the stakes are (usually) laid out at the start of the war and (oftentimes) that's all you can take.
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Nov 4, 2022 01:31
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Like people are saying, they are all quite different games. Not even so much in terms of their core mechanics as much as on how the presentation of those mechanics drives gameplay. In all of those games you fundamentally draw resources from your land to fund imperial projects and move little men around (with the exception of Victoria 3 which does away with interactable military units). But while that is the same foundation, the more active parts of the gameplay that are constructed on top of it are very much not shared. Crusader Kings is an RPG, Europa Universalis is a board game, Victoria is an Excel game, and Hearts of Iron is a wargame. Pick based on which of those you fancy.
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Nov 4, 2022 01:36
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Cease to Hope posted:i do think there's a paradox-brained design thinking, even if that's fading as they get bigger and split into separate teams. for example, even if you know what that "casus belli" means you need to have a specific reason to go to war, it can be a shock to go from civilization where you keep what you kill, to paradox games where the stakes are (usually) laid out at the start of the war and (oftentimes) that's all you can take. True, but as you say I think that's starting to fade in the newer games, and regardless the similarities are subtle enough that I don't think picking up an "easy" Paradox game to prepare you for more "difficult" Paradox games is a particularly worthwhile investment. CK3 is going to do extremely little for preparing you for Stellaris or Victoria 3 on a functional level, for instance. Better to just grab what you like from the get go and let your natural enjoyment take over instead of picking games you might be more eh about as a form of training.
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Nov 4, 2022 01:45
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CK3 would also be a great choice but I'd definitely pick Vicky 3 for a new player at the moment, I totally agree with the comment upthread that the best moment to jump into a Paradox game is when it first launches. The buzz and interest and also lack of people having triple-analyzed all the systems to death counts for a lot imo for ease of getting into it. EU4 is a fantastic game but way too bloated. I honestly wouldn't recommend Paradox games by period so much, definitely not as much as e.g. Total War where the flavor counts for so much.
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Nov 4, 2022 02:01
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I do think it's worth pointing out that Paradox games are also at their most fun when you kind of suck at them and don't understand the systems well enough to consistently win. CK especially is a series where the narrative of building an empire, having it all come crashing down, and then rebuilding from scratch is much more interesting than just blobbing forever and never experiencing any sort of setback. So the best Paradox game to dive into first is the one that you just find the most thematically interesting, because you'll get to enjoy that narrative of ups and downs for longer.
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Nov 4, 2022 02:06
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EU4 was the first one I got anything resembling "good" at because I can wrap my head around that kind of state-centred simulation better and I like the historical period quite a lot (so-called 'cursed' things give me endless entertainment; in my current active game Scotland extends from Nova Scotia to Jutland and Norway and I'm having fun culture converting the English out of existence). The only other one I've played to a normal game endpoint was Stellaris. I actually bounced off of the heavy personality/character focus of CK2 (haven't played CK3 yet because I'm _cheap_). Weirdly I have an easier time wrapping my head around EU4 mechanics even though everyone says it's the hardest. It flattens the things I find less interesting and puts depth into the things that I find more interesting  Just ask yourself what kind of thing you want to simulate and go from there.
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Nov 4, 2022 04:53
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CommonShore posted:EU4 was the first one I got anything resembling "good" at because I can wrap my head around that kind of state-centred simulation better and I like the historical period quite a lot (so-called 'cursed' things give me endless entertainment; in my current active game Scotland extends from Nova Scotia to Jutland and Norway and I'm having fun culture converting the English out of existence). The only other one I've played to a normal game endpoint was Stellaris. I actually bounced off of the heavy personality/character focus of CK2 (haven't played CK3 yet because I'm _cheap_). Weirdly I have an easier time wrapping my head around EU4 mechanics even though everyone says it's the hardest. It flattens the things I find less interesting and puts depth into the things that I find more interesting the thing to understand about Paradox games - which ironically it sounds like you're saying you agree with - is that they're not really difficult or hard to understand. for almost all of them, you really only have to learn one or two mechanics and numbers, and -everything else- is window dressing. you think it's important, but it turns out to just be a min/max 10% modifier.
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Nov 4, 2022 05:58
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their UIs are built to obscure the gently caress outta that though lol
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Nov 4, 2022 05:59
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CK3 by far the worst at that right now. People talk about it like it's hard, but once you know you can beat an army 20 times bigger than yours it just feels silly.
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Nov 4, 2022 06:08
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:CK3 by far the worst at that right now. People talk about it like it's hard, but once you know you can beat an army 20 times bigger than yours it just feels silly. I have literally never heard anyone call CK3 hard.
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Nov 4, 2022 07:28
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retpocileh posted:I'm looking to get into one of these games. I see that the OP says CK3 would be the easiest to start with. Would y'all definitely recommend that over EU4 and Vic3? Do you like character-focused emergent storytelling and the Middle Ages? Go with CK3. Do you love in-depth economic simulations and the Industrial Revolution? Go with Vicky 3. Do you love wargaming and moving piles of NATO counters around while managing their supplies and making an alt-history WWII? Go with Hearts of Iron 4. If you're really not sure, Crusader Kings 2 is free-to-play and Victoria 2 is twenty bucks. They're old and janky (especially in the case of Vicky 2, which is over a decade old) but the core gameplay is fairly similar to their successors.
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Nov 4, 2022 07:40
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Vizuyos posted:Do you love wargaming and moving piles of NATO counters around while managing their supplies and making an alt-history WWII? Go with Hearts of Iron 4. I really, really feel like this isn't a great pitch necessarily - war gaming might be a draw to Darkest Hour, but for HoI4 it's very much the emergent narratives created through focus trees. Happy to argue if you'd like, but my 2c to the OP.
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Nov 4, 2022 07:49
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They're are roughly a million WWII war games better than hoi4
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Nov 4, 2022 07:51
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Gaius Marius posted:They're are roughly a million WWII war games better than hoi4 it's really shamefully bad lol there's a major expansion once every 2 years that adds focus trees to Switzerland and makes a specific subregion unplayable again.
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Nov 4, 2022 07:52
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There really aren't any emergent narratives in vanilla HoI4's focus trees unless the By Blood Alone ones are massively superior to the old ones, that's a mod thing.
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Nov 4, 2022 08:02
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Gaius Marius posted:They're are roughly a million WWII war games better than hoi4 Man I wish With the same global scope and encompassing politics and industry etc? There's uh... Strategic Command?
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Nov 4, 2022 08:15
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The only good paradox game is ck2. All the other ones just looks and sounds like they should be great, but the execution and actual gameplay leaves a lot to be desired.
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Nov 4, 2022 08:56
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Weird way to spell Victoria II
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Nov 4, 2022 09:02
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Gaius Marius posted:Weird way to spell Victoria II
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Nov 4, 2022 09:22
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Tomn posted:Picking Paradox games based on what's easiest to get into is a bit of a trap, I think - they're all complex, but they're all complex in different ways because they're focusing on different things, one game isn't really going to "ease you into" another. The real question is which kind of complexity and which subject you think will tickle your brain more. True, true. Gamestyle and the setting are very important in games like those. I understand that CK3 is a good game, but Soviet upbringing makes me empathize with industrial complexes and expanding map borders, so Victoria 3, as underbaked as it is now, consumes me.
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Nov 4, 2022 09:34
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CommonShore posted:Weirdly I have an easier time wrapping my head around EU4 mechanics even though everyone says it's the hardest. It flattens the things I find less interesting and puts depth into the things that I find more interesting Yeah, I know what you mean. I've heard people talk about it as a "wide as the ocean, deep as a puddle" game and it's kinda true. No action goes more than two steps out of your sight if you know what I mean. Like in Victoria 3 right now you can build an iron mine, which will lower the price of iron, which will improve the profitability of several of your factories, which will improve some other factories and make Great Britain want to trade with you, and meanwhile, owners of the mine become more politically important, and availability of important goods changes for your people etc. EU4 has archaic hard to stomach UI and hundreds of available actions, but it's all converting one value into another, and this another value affects some other values in a minor way, and most of the exchanges end up using one of the four main currencies. You pay 100 diplomatic power to get 1 mercantilism, and each point of mercantilism improves several parameters connected to trade, end of the story. For some people, it's easier to wrap their heads around it, including me. Plus EU4 AI is probably the best out of all Paradox games at the moment, it doesn't have Stellaris or CK3 problems where eventually you know you'll succeed at whatever you're planning (and in CK3 vanilla you can't even make the game harder). But as tempting it is to say that EU4 is the best of them - but I'm stopped by the archaic UI and the fact that a lot of people don't like that kind of boardgame from hell approach. CK3 or Stellaris are probably the best for a new player, but if you're really into WW2 or Romans or the Victorian Era then HoI4 or Imperator or Victoria 3 will probably work better for you.
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Nov 4, 2022 09:50
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Can't believe no one has suggested EU3 with the Magna Mundi mod. No real Paradox aficionados in this thread apparently.
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Nov 4, 2022 09:54
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For the Glory is better than III and IV. IV used to be equal or better but Paradox has hosed that game six ways sideways
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Nov 4, 2022 09:57
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Can't believe no one has suggested EU3 with the Magna Mundi mod. No real Paradox aficionados in this thread apparently. I'm getting this post framed.
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Nov 4, 2022 10:06
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EU4 is the ur-Paradox Game, the template by which all other should be judged. Crusader Kings is just EU4 but you have to gently caress your cousin before you can paint the map. Victoria is just EU4 but you have to do Microsoft Excel to paint map.
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Nov 4, 2022 10:17
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Vizuyos posted:Do you love wargaming and moving piles of NATO counters around while managing their supplies and making an alt-history WWII? Go with Hearts of Iron 4. my understanding is that AI control means that this part isn't actually true of HOI4 and for that experience you want to go with HOI3, which is the better game
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Nov 4, 2022 10:19
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You want to go Hearts of Iron II or Darkest Hour for maximum counter pushing. But you can still order manual movements even with AI control in HoI4, and you should absolutely do it when you want to make selective aggressive pushes without setting the AI's aggressiveness to "suicidal".
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Nov 4, 2022 10:35
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gradenko_2000 posted:my understanding is that AI control means that this part isn't actually true of HOI4 and for that experience you want to go with HOI3, which is the better game You can micromanage every move of every counter in HOI4 if you want to, but you shouldn't want to I generally leave movement up to the AI, but jump in if I see a good opportunity or obvious mistake it's making
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Nov 4, 2022 11:30
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Can't believe no one has suggested EU3 with the Magna Mundi mod. No real Paradox aficionados in this thread apparently. I think you mean Steppe Wolfe
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Nov 4, 2022 11:51
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GrossMurpel posted:I think you mean Steppe Wolfe Seriously, if your mod doesn't have more than three Bulgarias are you even trying?  I should try to find the Steppe Wolfe LP again.
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Nov 4, 2022 11:57
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Freudian posted:I'm getting this post framed. GrossMurpel posted:I think you mean Steppe Wolfe
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Nov 4, 2022 12:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:MM for gameplay, Steppe Wolfe for realism.  Frame this post instead
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Nov 4, 2022 14:09
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Vichan posted:Seriously, if your mod doesn't have more than three Bulgarias are you even trying? There were two that I'm aware of, one by yermato (with iirc the thread posters posting their own chapters from their own attempts at "playing" the mod) and one by pattersong.
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Nov 4, 2022 14:12
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Can't believe no one has suggested EU3 with the Magna Mundi mod. No real Paradox aficionados in this thread apparently. It doesn't have enough pirates
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Nov 4, 2022 15:01
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Waifu Radia posted:the thing to understand about Paradox games - which ironically it sounds like you're saying you agree with - is that they're not really difficult or hard to understand. for almost all of them, you really only have to learn one or two mechanics and numbers, and -everything else- is window dressing. you think it's important, but it turns out to just be a min/max 10% modifier. Oh yeah I'm totally agreeing with that. But each of these games puts more details into some parts and more abstraction into others. I like managing things administratively and diplomatically and untangling alliances between my neighbours to get what I want but I hate micromanaging things like battles and trade. The nitty gritty of the battles/wars doesn't appeal to me so much. I'm happy just to stack infantry combat ability % and morale % and watch my stack smesh their stack. For me the fun is the chronological aspects of the game and watching an amusing alt-history of states, religions, and cultures unfold where Scotland completely obliterates all memory of "The English," or Florence renames itself to Egypt or we have battles in Polish Arabia. EG love that I have "a merchant" that I can send somewhere and give a broad directive to and he goes and does it. Managing marriages and succession and relationships with individual leaders drove me nutty when I was playing CK2 and is probably why I never played a run for more than like 60 years. I should probably give Stellaris another try. The last time I played it I bought jump drives not knowing what I was getting into.
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Nov 4, 2022 15:13
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The easiest Paradox game to get into right now I think is Stellaris, it works without DLC, and it eases you into it's mechanics rather than you either being thrown in to manage the entire Russian Empire on Day 1, or as a minor nation that you already have to know what you're doing to not get stomped into oblivion when the AI catches sight of you. CK3 is also easy to get into as well, I bounced off it though, I'm not much into character roleplay mapgames.
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Nov 4, 2022 16:31
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Mantis42 posted:Victoria is just EU4 but you get to do Microsoft Excel to paint map. Fixed that for you.
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Nov 4, 2022 17:08
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Freudian posted:I'm getting this post framed. Oh no, +10 BB 
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Nov 4, 2022 18:21
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