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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:The whole Momentum idea that m4a will somehow lead to socialism isn't particularly persuasive in light of its failure to do so anywhere else in the world. How a healthcare platform to the right of Theresa May is supposed to leave the masses to revolution is somewhat left unsaid participating in elections is a dead end. only by treating our maids as reproductive labor will we drive the lower classes to socialism.
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Jan 15, 2019 15:24
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GoluboiOgon posted:participating in elections is a dead end. only by treating our maids as reproductive labor will we drive the lower classes to socialism. Treating the Momentum opposition as advocating boycotting elections whatever nonsense you're on about is such a bad faith misreading of what they're saying that it's hard to treat this as comradely critique
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Jan 15, 2019 15:29
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:The whole Momentum idea that m4a will somehow lead to socialism isn't particularly persuasive in light of its failure to do so anywhere else in the world. How a healthcare platform to the right of Theresa May is supposed to leave the masses to revolution is somewhat left unsaid Will it solve racism? Will it solve sexism?
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Jan 15, 2019 15:35
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:The whole Momentum idea that m4a will somehow lead to socialism isn't particularly persuasive in light of its failure to do so anywhere else in the world. How a healthcare platform to the right of Theresa May is supposed to leave the masses to revolution is somewhat left unsaid has anyone claimed that m4a will lead to socialism? you can basically make the same argument for literally any electoral reform, and its precisely why democratic socialism is a dead end 
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Jan 15, 2019 15:47
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Postoyevsky posted:has anyone claimed that m4a will lead to socialism? Why is Momentum trying to limit other campaigns then???
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Jan 15, 2019 15:52
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Why is Momentum trying to limit other campaigns then??? what "other campaigns" does DSA have that will directly result in socialism?
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Jan 15, 2019 15:56
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i think the biggest problem with m4a is that even in the unlikely event that it's accomplished, the democrats will just take credit for it because why wouldnt they. it's also not entirely clear what m4a is as everyone has their own version of it
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Jan 15, 2019 16:07
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Why is Momentum trying to limit other campaigns then??? you know how when you tell your scullery maid to stop scrubbing the floors because she has to wash your undergarments before dusk? it’s exactly like that
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Jan 15, 2019 16:08
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Rated PG-34 posted:i think the biggest problem with m4a is that even in the unlikely event that it's accomplished, the democrats will just take credit for it because why wouldnt they. it's also not entirely clear what m4a is as everyone has their own version of it Medicare for all is literally the only clear program we have lol. make everyone get Medicare, done!
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Jan 15, 2019 16:10
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Postoyevsky posted:what "other campaigns" does DSA have that will directly result in socialism? All the more reason to maintain diversity of strategy
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Jan 15, 2019 16:10
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Postoyevsky posted:has anyone claimed that m4a will lead to socialism?
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Jan 15, 2019 16:14
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:All the more reason to maintain diversity of strategy okay, but that's not really what we're talking about? quote:The whole Momentum idea that m4a will somehow lead to socialism I don't think Momentum believe that m4a will overthrow capitalism. They just believe that m4a is the most worthwhile campaign for DSA to organize around
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Jan 15, 2019 16:14
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FoneBone posted:have definitely seen multiple Momentum folks in Philly DSA claim that it is in fact the only viable path to socialism 
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Jan 15, 2019 16:17
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Slanderer posted:Medicare for all is literally the only clear program we have lol. make everyone get Medicare, done! i mean that all the democrats who've signed on to it have their own version. even vox supports m4a but read the fine print
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Jan 15, 2019 16:18
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Crusader posted:my hopefully only take on the whole momentum and bernie thing: if sanders runs, great, but even solely electoral work is more than just the presidential race, so it would be great for those so motivated to work at congressional and local levels as well. and if there’s a new wave of people flowing into dsa from another sanders run, that is great too, but i am assuming said people will want to do more than all their direct all their energy on a sanders run, so having a chapter and presumably national org that has viable avenues for participation along labor, healthcare, housing, feminist, immigration, climate, etc. lines to build a socialist future outside of what a president sanders could ever accomplish even in an ideal term seems just as important to me a good post. I also disagree with “the momentum people need to be purged.” I don’t mind that they want a particular vision for what DSA should do, I mind that they are anti-democratic in how they want to implement it. They should get to advocate for their ideas the same as everyone else in a system that allows people to work on multiple projects at once. I think the centralization is bad, not campaigning for Bernie or whatever.
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Jan 15, 2019 16:38
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Like, I don't agree that it's time to start talking expulsions or whatever, but to the extent that anyone thinks it is, it's the anti-democratic stuff, not the policy platform, that's the issue.
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Jan 15, 2019 16:40
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:The whole Momentum idea that m4a will somehow lead to socialism isn't particularly persuasive in light of its failure to do so anywhere else in the world. How a healthcare platform to the right of Theresa May is supposed to leave the masses to revolution is somewhat left unsaid lmao reading this post from you of all people
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Jan 15, 2019 17:06
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People will be in a better condition to revolt when they aren't all dying from preventable disease
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Jan 15, 2019 17:34
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Still waiting on my question re: what have any of the big dsa caucuses accomplished since the last election beyond some proclamations and getting owned online
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Jan 15, 2019 17:45
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Ghost Leviathan posted:People will be in a better condition to revolt when they aren't all dying from preventable disease I'm seems to be working great in Canada e: this isn't even a criticism along the liens of "DSA shouldn't do M4A". DSA has to be more than M4A or Bernie, otherwise what's the point? WhiskeyJuvenile has issued a correction as of 17:54 on Jan 15, 2019 |
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Jan 15, 2019 17:46
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Business Gorillas posted:Still waiting on my question re: what have any of the big dsa caucuses accomplished since the last election beyond some proclamations and getting owned online Not really sure this thread has enough committed Caucus Defenders to take up the gauntlet tho.
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Jan 15, 2019 17:48
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Business Gorillas posted:Still waiting on my question re: what have any of the big dsa caucuses accomplished since the last election beyond some proclamations and getting owned online LSC has written an endless parade of solidarity statements and it's starting that van based traveling socialism show
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Jan 15, 2019 17:53
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Ghost Leviathan posted:People will be in a better condition to revolt when they aren't all dying from preventable disease You could make this case for basically any other project that people in DSA want to achieve though. To my knowledge SF has mostly focused on housing rights stuff and I think you'll be hard pressed to say that having a place to live doesn't also provide a "better condition to revolt". There's a lot of homeless work that needs to be done, should that be shelved until we get M4A? 99% of people in DSA support M4A, and certain babykillers in this thread seem to confuse opposition to Momentum with opposition to M4A. Momentum has, in my personal experience, wanted to make M4A the SOLE area of focus for DSA and that's what at a lot of people have a problem with, and their ways of doing this are typically to sandbag other projects when they get into power or do things like be a little loving weasel and say poo poo like "Well, I just think that if everyone were HEALTHY that we could do the revolution finally" like there isn't a million other things holding people down.
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Jan 15, 2019 17:58
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Vhak lord of hate posted:Momentum has, in my personal experience, wanted to make M4A the SOLE area of focus for DSA and that's what at a lot of people have a problem with, Good news! Soon this will be folded into canvassing for Bernie.
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Jan 15, 2019 18:01
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Yeah, my experience in my branch has been mutual aid involving the homeless community and dealing with our DSA-endorsed county executive on housing affordability and development. This doesn't fall under it any of the three priorities
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Jan 15, 2019 18:03
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Business Gorillas posted:Still waiting on my question re: what have any of the big dsa caucuses accomplished since the last election beyond some proclamations and getting owned online i think the answer to this is in the same ballpark as the question about national's legitimacy and value- many of the benefits of the large caucuses are on a micro level and have more to do with radicalizing and/or mobilizing people to organize. my anecdotal experience with is watching my LSC friends encourage, train, and support new organizers in ways that both further the LSC causes and some that don't 
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Jan 15, 2019 18:03
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Business Gorillas posted:Still waiting on my question re: what have any of the big dsa caucuses accomplished since the last election beyond some proclamations and getting owned online caucuses are a scourge on the dsa and leave only misery and medium pieces in their wake. completely useless
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Jan 15, 2019 18:09
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Goon Danton posted:LSC has written an endless parade of solidarity statements and it's starting that van based traveling socialism show It's going to be like a Gordon Ramsey "fix the bad cooks' kitchen" show except they come and try to organize a union or something and gently caress it up, right?
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Jan 15, 2019 18:10
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IM DAY DAY IRL posted:i think the answer to this is in the same ballpark as the question about national's legitimacy and value- many of the benefits of the large caucuses are on a micro level and have more to do with radicalizing and/or mobilizing people to organize. my anecdotal experience with is watching my LSC friends encourage, train, and support new organizers in ways that both further the LSC causes and some that don't it's basically this. caucuses help like-minded folks get together and organize more effectively on what their collective priorities are. identity caucuses like the afro-socialist caucus or lgbtq+ caucus (not sure if there's a national queer caucus but there's a local one here and they're pretty legit) help marginalized groups to organize and have more voice and power in otherwise white-controlled spaces. regional caucuses like the rust belt caucus, southern caucus, and state caucuses allow chapters to meet up with each other and organize around mutual concerns and share resources. caucuses are actually really good. caucuses doing poo poo like attempting to centralize power for themselves alone and delegitimize all other forms of organizing are what's really bad.
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Jan 15, 2019 18:19
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Lightning Knight posted:It's going to be like a Gordon Ramsey "fix the bad cooks' kitchen" show except they come and try to organize a union or something and gently caress it up, right? Goon Danton posted:Hey comrades,
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Jan 15, 2019 18:23
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I'm really curious to hear what "builds socialism" if M4A doesn't "build socialism."
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Jan 15, 2019 18:23
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That actually sounds pretty cool, godspeed comrade.
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Jan 15, 2019 18:25
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Internet Explorer posted:I'm really curious to hear what "builds socialism" if M4A doesn't "build socialism." labor unions, worker co-ops, and hell even mutual aid initiatives directly "build socialism" more than M4A at the same time though, M4A would immediately be a net-positive for the lives of millions of people. it doesn't necessarily build class consciousness or challenge capital in a way that labor unions and dual power institutions do though
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Jan 15, 2019 18:26
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Internet Explorer posted:I'm really curious to hear what "builds socialism" if M4A doesn't "build socialism." you have been invited to bordiga crew
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Jan 15, 2019 18:28
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Postoyevsky posted:labor unions, worker co-ops, and hell even mutual aid initiatives directly "build socialism" more than M4A yup. m4a is something we should be in favor of by virtue of meeting people where they are, but the idea that it is our organizational priority, when we would be, at best, replicating work that other, more established, groups are already doing, is wishful thinking at best
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Jan 15, 2019 18:30
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Postoyevsky posted:labor unions, worker co-ops, and hell even mutual aid initiatives directly "build socialism" more than M4A M4A is like a labor union and worker co-op all in one 
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Jan 15, 2019 18:34
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Syndlig posted:it's basically this. caucuses help like-minded folks get together and organize more effectively on what their collective priorities are. identity caucuses like the afro-socialist caucus or lgbtq+ caucus (not sure if there's a national queer caucus but there's a local one here and they're pretty legit) help marginalized groups to organize and have more voice and power in otherwise white-controlled spaces. regional caucuses like the rust belt caucus, southern caucus, and state caucuses allow chapters to meet up with each other and organize around mutual concerns and share resources. I'm asking specifically what Momentum/Praxis/Refoundation have done since the last convention. The regional + identity caucuses have proven results and are a great laboratory for ideas. Also, none of those groups are jockeying for control over national
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Jan 15, 2019 18:37
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Internet Explorer posted:I'm really curious to hear what "builds socialism" if M4A doesn't "build socialism." Mutual Aid and counter institution building, ez clap nerd
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Jan 15, 2019 18:38
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i'm not against m4a or organizing for it. i have way too many friends who are underinsured or uninsured because of our lovely healthcare system and are basically just counting the days until they have a serious emergency that kills them because they can't afford it. i'm not against organizing for bernie. i'm not gonna do it because i have way too much poo poo to do (immigrant rights, shutting down detention centers, antifascist organizing, etc.) and i'm not really all that great at canvassing for candidates. there's plenty of other people to do it. i'm not against a strong central national priority. if it's something that doesn't negatively impact our ability to do other projects, then something that the national org is able to focus on to increase our profile while improving material conditions is extremely good! what i'm against is how Momentum plans to handle all this, which is to do these things at the expense of all else.
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Jan 15, 2019 18:38
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Syndlig posted:i'm not against m4a or organizing for it. i have way too many friends who are underinsured or uninsured because of our lovely healthcare system and are basically just counting the days until they have a serious emergency that kills them because they can't afford it. 
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Jan 15, 2019 18:39
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