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Hirams Bitch posted:
I assume you mean HBK/UT?
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Oct 23, 2011 17:16
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| # ? May 26, 2024 23:42 |
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Chris Benoit was the shits on the microphone for most of his WCW career, though. He wasn't someone who should have been top guy during his WCW run. Smarks would have loved it, myself included, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it would have been good for business(Not that WCW knew what was good for business anyway). The Lance Storm push that Storm got in 2000 probably would have worked for Benoit. Just look at the WCW roster in 1999/2000. Benoit was one of the most technically proficient wrestlers, but there were other guys floundering in the undercard that had the complete package. Jericho on the other hand, was ready for at least a minor main event feud by 1998, but they wouldn't follow through with the Goldberg thing. He had all the tools as far back as the summer of 1998. *Edit* Now that I think of it though, Benoit was probably strong looking enough to pull off the push Goldberg got. Goldberg was around for months before he even talked. Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 16:16
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Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:*Edit* Now that I think of it though, Benoit was probably strong looking enough to pull off the push Goldberg got. Goldberg was around for months before he even talked. I think that's a bit of a stretch. Not by a ton mind you, but a bit of one. I feel like Goldberg was kind of a one in a million thing (or two, if you count Lesnar who was probably the closest thing) in terms of not only them giving the guy that monster push, but also the crowd buying it and actually FEEDING it. Goldberg was a perfect storm.
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Oct 24, 2011 17:20
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SamuraiFoochs posted:I think that's a bit of a stretch. Not by a ton mind you, but a bit of one. I feel like Goldberg was kind of a one in a million thing (or two, if you count Lesnar who was probably the closest thing) in terms of not only them giving the guy that monster push, but also the crowd buying it and actually FEEDING it. Goldberg was a perfect storm. But there was really nothing special about Goldberg in particular that that push couldn't have worked on. Sure, it was probably better to do that with a newer guy than someone established (though I think it could've worked either way, with a throwaway commentary line like "this guy sure has increased his focus over the last few months") but you could slot almost anyone that was muscular and biggish to do that role. The crowd got into it because the writing and the push were executed well, not because Goldberg had any kind of natural charisma, wrestling talent, or physique. For what the Goldberg character became, Benoit would've worked just fine as a guy who only has to yell "You're Next" every so often and do three moves of doom. Benoit would've made those three moves look like a million bucks too.
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Oct 24, 2011 17:33
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flashy_mcflash posted:But there was really nothing special about Goldberg in particular that that push couldn't have worked on. Sure, it was probably better to do that with a newer guy than someone established (though I think it could've worked either way, with a throwaway commentary line like "this guy sure has increased his focus over the last few months") but you could slot almost anyone that was muscular and biggish to do that role. The crowd got into it because the writing and the push were executed well, not because Goldberg had any kind of natural charisma, wrestling talent, or physique. Goldberg had massive amounts of physical charisma. He had a great look, he looked stronger and more athletic than everyone else.
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Oct 24, 2011 17:45
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Hirams Bitch posted:Goldberg had massive amounts of physical charisma. He had a great look, he looked stronger and more athletic than everyone else. This. I mean Benoit was built like a brick shithouse, but he didn't look like as much of an animal as Goldberg IMO. Goldberg's monstrous aura was a lot more overt, whereas Benoit's was more understated.
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Oct 24, 2011 17:55
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flashy_mcflash posted:But there was really nothing special about Goldberg in particular that that push couldn't have worked on. Sure, it was probably better to do that with a newer guy than someone established (though I think it could've worked either way, with a throwaway commentary line like "this guy sure has increased his focus over the last few months") but you could slot almost anyone that was muscular and biggish to do that role. The crowd got into it because the writing and the push were executed well, not because Goldberg had any kind of natural charisma, wrestling talent, or physique. saying Goldberg has no natural charisma is loving ridiculous. Same for his physique not playing into it. Goldberg looked and acted that part, and no, you can't just throw ANYONE into it. Also, yes, UT/HBK was better than Mysterio/Eddy. Mysterio/Eddy is really good but a bit overrated in hindsight. Just a bit, though.
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Oct 24, 2011 18:26
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El Duke posted:saying Goldberg has no natural charisma is loving ridiculous. Same for his physique not playing into it. Goldberg looked and acted that part, and no, you can't just throw ANYONE into it. Case in point: In 93 WWE had a wrestler on an undefeated streak when he debuted. Can you guess who it was? Tatanka
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Oct 24, 2011 18:29
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El Duke posted:saying Goldberg has no natural charisma is loving ridiculous. Same for his physique not playing into it. Goldberg looked and acted that part, and no, you can't just throw ANYONE into it. Word. Like I said the closest guy to that they've had since is Lesnar (god how did that match suck so hard  ).I GUESS I could see Sheamus as a Goldberg lite if they had chosen to push him as such but that's the only dude I could think of currently on the roster that has the look, charisma, and an ability to actually move athletically (unlike, say, Mason Ryan).
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Oct 24, 2011 18:35
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Hirams Bitch posted:Goldberg had massive amounts of physical charisma. He had a great look, he looked stronger and more athletic than everyone else. If you're a professional wrestler of a certain size, is it really so much of a stretch to play 'angry, screaming, incoherent maniac'? I mean, strip away the pyro and the camera following him from the dressing room and you've basically got Ezekiel Jackson. I'm not saying he didn't play that role to the hilt, but is it really something that many big guys couldn't have played? I'm not sure. He looked stronger because he was booked stronger (as opposed to being legitimately stronger and more athletic than most guys in the way that Lesnar and Vader were).
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Oct 24, 2011 18:47
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flashy_mcflash posted:If you're a professional wrestler of a certain size, is it really so much of a stretch to play 'angry, screaming, incoherent maniac'? I mean, strip away the pyro and the camera following him from the dressing room and you've basically got Ezekiel Jackson. I'm not saying he didn't play that role to the hilt, but is it really something that many big guys couldn't have played? I'm not sure. He looked stronger because he was booked stronger (as opposed to being legitimately stronger and more athletic than most guys in the way that Lesnar and Vader were). He was more athletic than most guys with his physique, though. That's the point. He wasn't a Mason Ryan or an Ezekial Jackson. He wasn't great in ring, but he did the moves that he knew crisply, and made everything look like it had serious impact (to a fault, actually). I don't think you understand what someone who has physical charisma in the ring looks like, because it's that. Also, he looked stronger because he was huge and his finisher was a feat of strength move that he pulled off pretty drat well on a regular basis.
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Oct 24, 2011 18:51
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So it comes down to mannerisms and move execution. And you don't think that a Chris Benoit could've and would've played that role the same or better?
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Oct 24, 2011 18:56
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flashy_mcflash posted:So it comes down to mannerisms and move execution. And you don't think that a Chris Benoit could've and would've played that role the same or better? It also comes down to look, like I said. And Chris Benoit did not look like Goldberg, nowhere close. We have a billed height difference of 5 inches; a billed weight difference of over 50 lbs. Could you have given Chris Benoit a winning streak gimmick where he tears through the competition and have it work? Possibly. Would he have been as popular as Goldberg? Probably not. Goldberg looked like a star the minute he walked out of the dressing room. Benoit didn't and never would. He had to get over almost exclusively on in-ring talent.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:02
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El Duke posted:He was more athletic than most guys with his physique, though. That's the point. He wasn't a Mason Ryan or an Ezekial Jackson. He wasn't great in ring, but he did the moves that he knew crisply, and made everything look like it had serious impact (to a fault, actually). I don't think you understand what someone who has physical charisma in the ring looks like, because it's that. Also, he looked stronger because he was huge and his finisher was a feat of strength move that he pulled off pretty drat well on a regular basis. Out of curiosity El Duke (I agree with this post BTW) would you agree that Sheamus is in a similar mold in terms of being really athletic for a dude his size? EDIT: Sheamus is literally almost the same size as Goldberg. Billed 2 inches taller, 1 pound bigger.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:11
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oldpainless posted:I assume you mean HBK/UT? Misawa/Kobashi was the match of the year, but Havoc wasn't far off. HIAC was probably the best squash match of all time. The Duck of Death fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 19:14
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Out of curiosity El Duke (I agree with this post BTW) would you agree that Sheamus is in a similar mold in terms of being really athletic for a dude his size? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty accurate. I think if you gave Sheamus five or six moves, told him to do them consistently to the best of his ability, and had him run over guys, he'd do a similar job. I don't think his look is quite as good as Goldberg, but it's similar, and he's definitely imposing enough. He's pretty fluid in the ring and isn't a slug, so it's a good comparison. He has more upside, match quality-wise, I think, because he HASN'T been told to learn just five moves for the first year and a half or so of his career, and actually likes the business, so he'll continue to get better. But yeah, if you were looking for a similar guy, he's closer than most. Edit: The Duck of Death posted:Misawa/Kobashi was the best match of 1997. But the best match of the year is Austin/Hart from WM13 so it's all moot anyway.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:15
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flashy_mcflash posted:So it comes down to mannerisms and move execution. And you don't think that a Chris Benoit could've and would've played that role the same or better? No. Simply because Goldberg was far bigger. Goldberg may not have been terribly tall (in wrestling terms) but he was drat sure taller than Benoit. And he probably had another 60 lb. of muscle on his frame to boot. Benoit looks like he'll kick you rear end by picking you apart, and his moveset to that point (and farther on) reinforced that view. Goldberg looked like he would bash your head in, and rape you in the middle of the ring. A Goldberg streak works better with a guy who uses power moves because a: it's more visually impressive, and b: it gets over the man, not a move, unlike say, Benoit having a win streak with The Crippler Crossface. That makes the Crossface look stronger, not Benoit. And Benoit doing outright power moves on guys much bigger than him would just look silly. And since he was shorter, finding guys smaller than him, other than a few cruiserweights wouldn't be possible. Goldberg matched up against many heavyweights from the get go, which made him look stronger. He wasn't just squashing little guys, he was taking out big guys too.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:17
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El Duke posted:Goldberg looked like a star the minute he walked out of the dressing room. Benoit didn't and never would. He had to get over almost exclusively on in-ring talent. I just think that so much of that was presentation. I'll allow that Goldberg's size was definitely a factor, but even if you look at old footage of Warrior from the Blade Runner/Dingo days, there's really no indication that he'd be this intense rambling monster so without seeing them inhabit that 'Goldberg' role, it's hard to say what would've clicked and what wouldn't have. Heck, even Angle portrayed an intense, dominant, believably legit competitor towards the end of his WWE run and he isn't much bigger than Benoit. Goldberg had a mix of a few elements that worked, but I'm not convinced that those elements or even the combination thereof were exclusive to Bill Goldberg. It's probably a misstep on my part to say that he doesn't have natural physical charisma but I don't think it's unique by any means.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:18
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El Duke posted:Yeah, I'd say that's pretty accurate. I think if you gave Sheamus five or six moves, told him to do them consistently to the best of his ability, and had him run over guys, he'd do a similar job. I don't think his look is quite as good as Goldberg, but it's similar, and he's definitely imposing enough. He's pretty fluid in the ring and isn't a slug, so it's a good comparison. He has more upside, match quality-wise, I think, because he HASN'T been told to learn just five moves for the first year and a half or so of his career, and actually likes the business, so he'll continue to get better. But yeah, if you were looking for a similar guy, he's closer than most. Yeah that's pretty much what I'd say too on all counts. Sheamus isn't as good of a monster, but is a better wrestler. Having said that, they're in a similar-ish mold in terms of physical build and physical charisma.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:18
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El Duke posted:But the best match of the year is Austin/Hart from WM13 so it's all moot anyway. Forgot that one. Personally I prefer Misawa/Kobashi, but point taken.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:19
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flashy_mcflash posted:Goldberg had a mix of a few elements that worked, but I'm not convinced that those elements or even the combination thereof were exclusive to Bill Goldberg. It's probably a misstep on my part to say that he doesn't have natural physical charisma but I don't think it's unique by any means. It's not unique but Benoit is a TERRIBLE comparison. Lesnar and Sheamus are the two dudes I can think of since then that theoretically could've gotten a "Goldberg push", especially Lesnar. Also Angle was booked as a beastly wrestler, not a monster. That's the difference.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:25
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Match of the Year 1997 (WCW): Eddie vs. Rey Match of the Year 1997 (WWF): Bret vs. Austin Match of the Year 1997 (Japan): Misawa vs. Kobashi Match of the Year 1997 (Gimmick): HBK vs. Taker Everyone happy?
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Oct 24, 2011 19:25
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Lone Rogue posted:Match of the Year 1997 (WCW): Eddie vs. Rey No, since I prefer Misawa/Kawada in 97. You should know by now everyone will never be happy here.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:27
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El Duke posted:You should know by now everyone will never be happy here.  Can we vote on 1997 Dancer of the Year? Maybe we'll reach a consensus then?
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Oct 24, 2011 19:28
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SamuraiFoochs posted:It's not unique but Benoit is a TERRIBLE comparison. Lesnar and Sheamus are the two dudes I can think of since then that theoretically could've gotten a "Goldberg push", especially Lesnar. Also Angle was booked as a beastly wrestler, not a monster. That's the difference. Benoit isn't a terrible comparison because he was more of a monster IRL than anyone in wrestling before or since. Aha! Check and mate, FOOCHS.
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Oct 24, 2011 19:28
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flashy_mcflash posted:Benoit isn't a terrible comparison because he was more of a monster IRL than anyone in wrestling before or since. Aha! Check and mate, FOOCHS. I'm assuming this is a joke post (and one I actually almost made sort of).
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Oct 24, 2011 19:37
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My original comment was referring more to the silent intimidating guy that beats everyone, and no one wants to step in the ring with, than saying Benoit should be treated like a 6'4" monster. I would imagine with Benoit, the gimmick would be if he gets a hold of a limb, you're either tapping out, or getting it torn off, and he would go on this streak of making guys tap out within a minute or two of the match starting. It was more just an offhanded comment of how Benoit could have been pushed to the main event in WCW with his lack of mic skills as opposed to something much thought went into. Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 19:43
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Lone Rogue posted:
Alex Wright.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:18
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It's between Norman Smiley and La Parka. Everyone else eats all the fucks.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:19
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Benoit was unquestionably brilliant in the ring. He was believable in a huge range of roles as a wrestler. However, there are certain roles that require specific physical attributes. A 450 pound wrestler can't wrestle a cruiserweight style: however good they might be, they aren't physically capable of the moves necessary for a cruiser style, especially not selling like a cruiserweight. The same is true the other way: I love Daizee Haze to bits and think she's incredible in the ring, but seeing her in matches against large male competitors breaks the metaphor for me as it's impossible to take her offense seriously. To a lesser extent, the same would have been true of Benoit in a Goldberg role. He would easily have been physically capable of any of Goldberg's moves (apart from arguably some of the power moves against larger opponents), but he wasn't not physically imposing in quite the same way. He has little man intensity rather than big man intensity. He was a rabid wolverine rather than a charging bull.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:29
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Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:My original comment was referring more to the silent intimidating guy that beats everyone, and no one wants to step in the ring with, than saying Benoit should be treated like a 6'4" monster. I would imagine with Benoit, the gimmick would be if he gets a hold of a limb, you're either tapping out, or getting it torn off, and he would go on this streak of making guys tap out within a minute or two of the match starting. You know what is the best way to push Benoit? As the hard working wrestler who beats a lot of people until he receives an opportunity to win the Championship. Which is what both WCW and the WWF did to push him. And what TNA hosed up when pushing Robert Roode. Sure it won't set box offices on fire, but it's also what the WWF did to push Bret Hart and he was a pretty solid international star for them at a time when they couldn't make money in the U.S.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:29
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flashy_mcflash posted:If you're a professional wrestler of a certain size, is it really so much of a stretch to play 'angry, screaming, incoherent maniac'? I mean, strip away the pyro and the camera following him from the dressing room and you've basically got Ezekiel Jackson. I'm not saying he didn't play that role to the hilt, but is it really something that many big guys couldn't have played? I'm not sure. He looked stronger because he was booked stronger (as opposed to being legitimately stronger and more athletic than most guys in the way that Lesnar and Vader were). I dunno, I think Goldberg is a very rare case of a "juggernaut" face working really well- he works on a level that, say, Randy Orton doesn't (or even Triple H, who I think still works best as a heel.) Normally it's no fun if it's obvious that one guy in the ring stands no chance, but Goldberg was basically Godzilla- the spectacle was seeing him wreck poo poo.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:32
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Lone Rogue posted:You know what is the best way to push Benoit? As the hard working wrestler who beats a lot of people until he receives an opportunity to win the Championship. Which is what both WCW and the WWF did to push him. And what TNA hosed up when pushing Robert Roode. Sure it won't set box offices on fire, but it's also what the WWF did to push Bret Hart and he was a pretty solid international star for them at a time when they couldn't make money in the U.S. This seems to be the approach in general for good technical guys whenever the bosses decide they want to push one. You can see them work hard in the ring and not just overpower their opponent, so I guess they draw on that for the general story.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:33
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Maxwell Lord posted:I dunno, I think Goldberg is a very rare case of a "juggernaut" face working really well- he works on a level that, say, Randy Orton doesn't (or even Triple H, who I think still works best as a heel.) Normally it's no fun if it's obvious that one guy in the ring stands no chance, but Goldberg was basically Godzilla- the spectacle was seeing him wreck poo poo. It worked with Warrior too. Basically as long as you can keep the match short so no intensity is lost, it's very effective. It just all falls apart when the match is longer than five minutes or so, because the type of guy that'd work this style is almost never the guy who can pull off a marathon match. It's entirely possible that I'm remembering Benoit as being bigger than he was because he was so ripped. In hindsight, he and Eddie weren't big at all compared to Goldberg/Lesnar/etc. but he always seemed like he could hold his own against those guys.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:37
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Eddie wasn't very big in WCW but he blew up when he went to WWE. Then again, so did Rey Mysterio. Rey is like twice the size now that he was in WCW and its not exactly because he hit a growth spurt.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:45
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flashy_mcflash posted:It's entirely possible that I'm remembering Benoit as being bigger than he was because he was so ripped. In hindsight, he and Eddie weren't big at all compared to Goldberg/Lesnar/etc. but he always seemed like he could hold his own against those guys. It's weird how small a lot of these guys were/are nowadays. I mean, when watching, you know that they're much smaller than other wrestlers back in the day, but how small they really are is pretty surprising. Chris Jericho is 6 feet tall. Chris Benoit was only like 5'10". Eddie was 5'8", the same height as me.
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Oct 24, 2011 20:47
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Cardboard Box posted:It's weird how small a lot of these guys were/are nowadays. I mean, when watching, you know that they're much smaller than other wrestlers back in the day, but how small they really are is pretty surprising. Chris Jericho is 6 feet tall. Chris Benoit was only like 5'10". Eddie was 5'8", the same height as me. Jericho wishes he was six feet tall.
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Oct 24, 2011 21:22
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El Duke posted:Jericho wishes he was six feet tall. Maybe with the lifts in his boots?
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Oct 24, 2011 21:27
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flashy_mcflash posted:It worked with Warrior too. Basically as long as you can keep the match short so no intensity is lost, it's very effective. It just all falls apart when the match is longer than five minutes or so, because the type of guy that'd work this style is almost never the guy who can pull off a marathon match. Watch some early Goldberg matches. He was really, really interesting. He had this hybrid style of power, submissions and kicks. It was like WCW was trying to create their own Taz in a way. It's one of the reasons why his match with Regal is so much fun. It wasn't until around the time he won the US Title that he just became a brute. Disappointing really.
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Oct 24, 2011 22:20
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Lone Rogue posted:Watch some early Goldberg matches. He was really, really interesting. He had this hybrid style of power, submissions and kicks. It was like WCW was trying to create their own Taz in a way. It's one of the reasons why his match with Regal is so much fun. It wasn't until around the time he won the US Title that he just became a brute. Disappointing really. Bischoff always said it was a response to show Vince how he should have booked Shamrock.
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Oct 24, 2011 22:34
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