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VictualSquid posted:In Re: Libertarian Election, I have a question to you amis: uhh you're probably thinking of Ross Perot and the Reform party.  For comparison, the Libertarians got 0.28% of the vote in 1992 and 0.50% of the vote in 1996
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Nov 11, 2020 16:06
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I don't know anything about it personally (and the less you know about their policies the better, because you will throw up in your own mouth), but modern libertarianism has a great tradition of basically polluting the term from the original, well-meaning, non-paedophile left libertarians of old. The fact that so many people embrace a corrupted philosophy that was designed to serve corporate interests would be funny if it weren't A) so pathetic and B) the people involved weren't completely undeserving of sympathy.
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Nov 11, 2020 16:06
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JustJeff88 posted:I don't know anything about it personally (and the less you know about their policies the better, because you will throw up in your own mouth), but modern libertarianism has a great tradition of basically polluting the term from the original, well-meaning, non-paedophile left libertarians of old. The fact that so many people embrace a corrupted philosophy that was designed to serve corporate interests would be funny if it weren't A) so pathetic and B) the people involved weren't completely undeserving of sympathy. I've gone back and read some of the exchanges in the thread over again, and it crystallized a weird feeling into something concrete. It's been nagging at me for a while, but some of the arguments, once you shear away the pointless verbosity, are eerily close to the basic socialist position that most of us in the thread have been taking; Workers are being exploited and not getting to enjoy the full benefit of their labor. So far so good. And then it veers off into the absolute nonsense of blaming the government for the exploitation, rather than the vampiric overlords of the capitalist classes, desperately pointing and going "Taxes and regulation are the reason you don't get to enjoy the benefits of your labor! Not us! We are blameless!". It seems more and more clear - to me, at least - that Libertarianism is what you get when capitalists decide to try and divert the anger of the working class by co-opting and twisting socialist analysis for heir own ends; They couldn't jettison the core thesis about exploitation, since that's what forms the bedrock appeal of the socialist position to begin with, but they could re-direct it and cloak it in a bunch of absolute nonsense like 'homesteading' and 'free markets' with a dash of 'property rights' thrown in. And then they ran with it to its logical conclusion where you end up advocating for the necessity and desirability of a thriving market of children and considering slave-states to be more free than a non slave-state, because of course they did. Which just proves that capital cannot help itself; Even when it tries to co-opt an ideology of emancipation for its own ends, its own emancipation from government, it ends up straight back at advocating for the most hideous excesses of commodification and dehumanization... which finally leads to kneecapping it by only attracting the absolutely worst and most broken people as its advocates, since the rest of us can see the logical end-point even if they hadn't spelled it out for us. ( Yes, I know, this isn't a novel or unique insight, it's just... nice to know why I've had that weird feeling. )
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Nov 11, 2020 17:57
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TLM3101 posted:
Libertarians are capital cucks.
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Nov 11, 2020 19:32
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TLM3101 posted:I've gone back and read some of the exchanges in the thread over again, and it crystallized a weird feeling into something concrete. It's been nagging at me for a while, but some of the arguments, once you shear away the pointless verbosity, are eerily close to the basic socialist position that most of us in the thread have been taking; Workers are being exploited and not getting to enjoy the full benefit of their labor. So far so good. And then it veers off into the absolute nonsense of blaming the government for the exploitation, rather than the vampiric overlords of the capitalist classes, desperately pointing and going "Taxes and regulation are the reason you don't get to enjoy the benefits of your labor! Not us! We are blameless!". This is very well said and absolutely true. Yes, it is obvious, but sometimes someone just has to *say* it. The ruling class, a.k.a. capital, knows that it is exploiting people so it has to use misdirection to get the exploited classes to either turn on each other with racism, sexism etc as well as fighting over comparatively trivial issues that don't hurt their bottom line. The one thing that oligarchs fear is class consciousness, because history has shown that when one bleeds the proletariat enough they will turn on ou. The outcomes of such revolutions are, sadly, their own tragedy, but it's still the case that capital has to find a way to redirect ire away from them because, deep down, they know that they are the exploitative class and that they can only go so far. I remember when Goldman-Sachs' "what to do in case of a communist revolution" plan was leaked. They know what they're doing and they are ready for the worst-case scenario. They aren't stupid, just evil. Here's the key difference though, and I consider it at the core of what makes a bad person and a good one - this goes back to Mieville's "capitalist inadequacy" as well. A libertarian sees exploitation and says "I hate being exploited, I want to be the exploiter instead"; a socialist sees exploitation and says "I hate being exploited, and I don't want anyone else to be either". Libertarianism plays to the former's sociopathic tendencies and says "If it weren't for *BIG GOVERNMENT*, you would be rich (off of the backs of your fellow man) too!" It's an easy sell for a lot of people because so many are greedy and we live in a society where obscene wealth is something to be admired, not reviled as it bloody well should be, and it's not hard to take advantage of humanity's avaricious nature. Socialism is a harder sell in many ways because it says "let's all be the same" when an awful lot of people just want to rise up on the backs of others. I know that people don't like to hear this, but I have a very dim view of human nature and I think that a lot of the support for capitalism stems from that because, unlike the privilege of pure birthright of centuries past, too many people want to be and think that they can be the parasite like Bezos, Zuckerberg, Koch, Murdoch etc. With some dark humour, I've always said that the government's biggest mistake is showing tax deductions on paychecks rather than working it into salaries. After all, everyone's employer steals from them, but they don't tell you "We paid you $14 an hour, but you actually made us $28 an hour on average. The lazy, parasitic shareholders will keep the difference - thanks a bunch!". If they did, they would be hosed. Also, the government actually gives us things for our tax money. Employers just take without mentioning it, but the government outright tells you how much they are "stealing" from you (note: taxes are not theft). If the government somehow worked taxes into salaries so that your employer payed you £11.86 per hour post-tax without itemising it, it would go down much easier. VAT is way too high and highly regressive, but it's incorporated into prices in Europe so it's easy to ignore. I don't expect all taxes to become "silent", of course, but it's a lot easier to take from people if it's done quietly. After all, the ownership class has been doing it for years.
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Nov 12, 2020 00:34
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TLM3101 posted:I've gone back and read some of the exchanges in the thread over again, and it crystallized a weird feeling into something concrete. It's been nagging at me for a while, but some of the arguments, once you shear away the pointless verbosity, are eerily close to the basic socialist position that most of us in the thread have been taking; Workers are being exploited and not getting to enjoy the full benefit of their labor. So far so good. And then it veers off into the absolute nonsense of blaming the government for the exploitation, rather than the vampiric overlords of the capitalist classes, desperately pointing and going "Taxes and regulation are the reason you don't get to enjoy the benefits of your labor! Not us! We are blameless!". This is actually an interesting obsservation. I don't know if it's the size of the chasm between the working class and the ownership class, but they are outright delusional in their vision of what child labor entails. Just a public service announcement, there's a leftist ideology thread for these kind of discussions as well: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3946780 Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 00:51
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libertarians aren't homogeneous either some of the young ones are baby socialists who haven't thought exploitation through to the end yet. that's one of the main reasons a thread like this is a good public service
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Nov 12, 2020 00:52
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Jazerus posted:libertarians aren't homogeneous either Yup. A friend of mine was hardcore libertarian (kept trying to get me to watch some Southern Avenger youtuber who wore a confederate luchador mask). Then she had to work for Wal-Mart for a bit, and started her career as a nurse. Now she's for MfA, thinks the FDA is too soft, and that it's past time to get UBI going. She still loves guns, but I guess being in Georgia will do that to you.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:17
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Sephyr posted:She still loves guns All attempts to disarm the working class must be frustrated, by force if necessary. If pigs and are troops weren't allowed either, yeah, I'd say let's not have guns everywhere at all times. But as long as pigs and are troops have guns, everyone needs them.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:36
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I'd disagree with the idea that libertarianism is the result of the plots of the wealthy, mainly because the people the wealthy pay to spread an ideology usually get involved with real politics instead of a fringe party. Prominent libertarians often end up shilling the bullshit for free, either because they're weird true believers or they think they'd personally benefit from a lack of government control.
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Nov 12, 2020 21:02
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The wealthy fund that poo poo though because it works, and we know it works because idiots shill it for free
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Nov 12, 2020 21:03
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SlothfulCobra posted:I'd disagree with the idea that libertarianism is the result of the plots of the wealthy, mainly because the people the wealthy pay to spread an ideology usually get involved with real politics instead of a fringe party. I would say that libertarianism is the indirect result of the plots of the wealthy. Liberal capitalism is mostly defined by the excuses used by the wealthy to excuse their abuses, which imply that those abuses are actually good. And libertarianism is made up of people who believe those excuses so hard that they think more abuse will improve things.
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Nov 12, 2020 21:22
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Yeah the wealthy aren't Libertarians, they're Capitalists. And they know exactly what that means: they want the government to conquer colonies to exploit, to forcibly open markets through gunboat diplomacy, to give Capitalists subsidies and corporate welfare, etc. To get support for pro-Capitalist government they fund tons and tons of propaganda to lie to people about what Capitalism is and to convince them that Capitalism means freedom and guarantees the greatest amount of prosperity for everyone, etc. Libertarians are poor people who notice these claims aren't true, that for example the stock market and corporate profits are at record highs but their wages buy less every year, but are so deeply taken in by the propaganda that they're unable to conceive that Capitalism is the reason they're poor and this is Capitalism working as intended, so instead they conclude that something is stopping Capitalism from working correctly: and that something is the government. Thanks to the government we have "Crony Capitalism", all the bad things aren't happening because of Capitalism, it's the cronies, who are only able to do this because the government is stopping pure Capitalism from working how it should.
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Nov 12, 2020 21:42
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah the wealthy aren't Libertarians, they're Capitalists. And they know exactly what that means: they want the government to conquer colonies to exploit, to forcibly open markets through gunboat diplomacy, to give Capitalists subsidies and corporate welfare, etc. To get support for pro-Capitalist government they fund tons and tons of propaganda to lie to people about what Capitalism is and to convince them that Capitalism means freedom and guarantees the greatest amount of prosperity for everyone, etc. Yeah we need to go back to the good old days when capital and the state were one
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Nov 12, 2020 21:51
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Tubgoat posted:All attempts to disarm the working class must be frustrated, by force if necessary. Yeah, I've also come to this understanding after a long time vacilating. I don't think the left will be taking anything over by force of arms, but there is no sense in willingly making yourself the most vulnerable piece on the board.
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Nov 13, 2020 00:09
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah the wealthy aren't Libertarians, they're Capitalists. And they know exactly what that means: they want the government to conquer colonies to exploit, to forcibly open markets through gunboat diplomacy, to give Capitalists subsidies and corporate welfare, etc. To get support for pro-Capitalist government they fund tons and tons of propaganda to lie to people about what Capitalism is and to convince them that Capitalism means freedom and guarantees the greatest amount of prosperity for everyone, etc. Capitalists want nothing more than, well, "more", and they will do anything, literally anything, to achieve that. If more government means more money, fine. If less means more, that's fine too. They want government to build roads that they can do commerce on because more, but they don't want to pay taxes to build those roads because that means less. They want government to construct universities to train their future wage slaves, but they aren't going to cover tuition unless it's some thinly-veiled "scholarship" that is 99% PR bid. They are fine with killing to open up new profit opportunities, as long as they don't pay for it. Libertarians, at least the true believer hate government on principle types, are the apex of what I call "freedom fetishism", of which there is a ton in the US and it's absolutely terrifying. "Free" has almost become a triggr word for me because, whenever someone uses it, it's basically the same as saying "big government" - it means that someone wants to do something incredibly selfish and/or incredibly damaging and they are pissed off that someone is trying to stop them.
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Nov 13, 2020 01:52
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JustJeff88 posted:Capitalists want nothing more than, well, "more", and they will do anything, literally anything, to achieve that. If more government means more money, fine. If less means more, that's fine too. They want government to build roads that they can do commerce on because more, but they don't want to pay taxes to build those roads because that means less. They want government to construct universities to train their future wage slaves, but they aren't going to cover tuition unless it's some thinly-veiled "scholarship" that is 99% PR bid. They are fine with killing to open up new profit opportunities, as long as they don't pay for it. Libertarians, at least the true believer hate government on principle types, are the apex of what I call "freedom fetishism", of which there is a ton in the US and it's absolutely terrifying. "Free" has almost become a triggr word for me because, whenever someone uses it, it's basically the same as saying "big government" - it means that someone wants to do something incredibly selfish and/or incredibly damaging and they are pissed off that someone is trying to stop them. You just reminded me of another contradiction they have. They hate the idea of 'free' stuff- first, because they don't feel like something given freely has any value, second, because they believe labor /wealth has to be 'stolen' from some people to make it 'free' for others. Yet at the same time, they love the idea of being free to do what they want. None of their will or desires ever needs to be transactional the same way they think other 'free stuff' is. You see this in how they don't think they should need the government's permission to do anything. When I point out this contradiction to Libertarians they start splitting hairs about Liberty and Freedom. They'll go on and on about 'Natural rights' which feels like sovcit nonsense to me.
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Nov 13, 2020 17:41
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The Oldest Man posted:Yeah we need to go back to the good old days when capital and the state were one All capital wants is for the state, and the workforce, to give it a hand. Literally.
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Nov 13, 2020 19:15
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Panfilo posted:You just reminded me of another contradiction they have. They hate the idea of 'free' stuff- first, because they don't feel like something given freely has any value, second, because they believe labor /wealth has to be 'stolen' from some people to make it 'free' for others. Doesn't the foundational text of libertarian belief hinge on the development of a free energy device
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Nov 14, 2020 21:33
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Somfin posted:Doesn't the foundational text of libertarian belief hinge on the development of a free energy device You're thinking Atlas Shrugged and Objectivism.
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Nov 15, 2020 01:00
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Somfin posted:Doesn't the foundational text of libertarian belief hinge on the development of a free energy device HootTheOwl posted:You're thinking Atlas Shrugged and Objectivism. That makes it worse, in my opinion. It's one thing to obsess over market economics when there are shortages and resource limits, but if there actually were unlimited, clean free energy and you still advocate that someone should be allowed to withold it because (the reasons genuinely do not matter), then that might be the most rear end in a top hat thing imaginable.
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Nov 15, 2020 02:15
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That is basically the tagline for ayn rand as a person, aye.
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Nov 15, 2020 02:16
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There is always more and she is always rear end in a top hat.
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Nov 15, 2020 02:24
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JustJeff88 posted:That makes it worse, in my opinion. It's one thing to obsess over market economics when there are shortages and resource limits, but if there actually were unlimited, clean free energy and you still advocate that someone should be allowed to withold it because (the reasons genuinely do not matter), then that might be the most rear end in a top hat thing imaginable. In the book she describes the 20th century motor company, who paid their employees to their need and expected work according to their ability. She then has one of the mouthpieces explain: quote:Try pouring water into a tank where there's a pipe at the bottom draining it out faster than you pour it, and each bucket you bring breaks that pipe an inch wider, and the harder you work the more is demanded of you, and you stand slinging buckets forty hours a week, then forty-eight, then fifty-six for your neighbor's supper -- for his wife's operation -- for his child's measles -- for his mother's wheel chair -- for his uncle's shirt -- for his nephew's schooling -- for the baby next door -- for the baby to be born -- for anyone anywhere around you -- it's theirs to receive, from diapers to dentures -- and yours to work, from sunup to sundown, month after month, year after year, with nothing to show for it but your sweat, with nothing in sight for you but their pleasure, for the whole of your life, without rest, without hope, without end... From each according to his ability, to each according to his need...
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Nov 15, 2020 16:16
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That is what wage labour is like, yes 
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Nov 15, 2020 16:25
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HootTheOwl posted:In the book she describes the 20th century motor company, who paid their employees to their need and expected work according to their ability. She then has one of the mouthpieces explain: Note that, like Jrod, they also make no mention of the utterly mad idea that the labour itself should be shared. This immediately reminded me of when fuckwit could not even conceive of the idea of multiple people collaborating to start a business/co-op/syndicate and so on; in the end, it always has to be one superior individual who clearly does all the work and deserves all of the reward. I've realised that amongst libertarians, even the very few that aren't racist still subscribe to eugenics and the worship of the noble capitalist. These are the same people in centuries past who said that kings, popes, nobles etc were inherently superior and appointed by God.
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Nov 15, 2020 18:36
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That paragraph about working for someone else's needs could easily apply to the boss and investors -- their bottomless greed, their children's braces etc. It obviously easily should. The real appeal of that paragraph, what it is fishing for, is natural revulsion for working class people. Kinda similar to racists' jokes about black people that go like, "can you imagine one with a phone or a flat screen TV?!?" Appeals to an axiomatic feeling that inherently the world cannot be thus.
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Nov 15, 2020 19:10
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Sax Solo posted:That paragraph about working for someone else's needs could easily apply to the boss and investors -- their bottomless greed, their children's braces etc. It obviously easily should. The real appeal of that paragraph, what it is fishing for, is natural revulsion for working class people. yeah most successful right-wing mass propaganda is just Marxism but with black people and poor people swapped in as the beneficiaries of exploitation of labor rather than bosses and shareholders. One of the other ways Ayn tips her hand is: you'll notice that John Galt invented the magic motor on company time with company resources, but he destroyed his notes and kept it a secret for himself. But the standard employment contract says anything you invent on the job is company property, so according to the conservative worldview: John Galt is stealing the company's intellectual property. But he is a Nietzschean Superman so contracts don't apply to him. E: she does that a lot though. A bunch of the villains are the wealthy heirs who run all the megacorps which were just handed to them because of their wealthy genes and not their ability, but also two of the heroes are wealthy heirs and one of them gives a speech about how inherited wealth is good because it creates an aristocracy of talent. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Nov 15, 2020 |
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Nov 15, 2020 19:19
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HootTheOwl posted:You're thinking Atlas Shrugged and Objectivism. Is there a real difference?
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Nov 15, 2020 20:35
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Somfin posted:Is there a real difference? objectivism is even more sociopathic than regular libertarianism otherwise no
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Nov 15, 2020 21:13
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US libertarianism is the terrible child of original libertarianism (the church and state can't tell me what to do, also free the land and let's enjoy ourselves communally) and objectivism (man is a rational individual and all units larger than the individual are bad and society is bad and doing things for anything but your own gain is bad).
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Nov 15, 2020 21:29
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Guavanaut posted:US libertarianism is the terrible child of original libertarianism (the church and state can't tell me what to do, also free the land and let's enjoy ourselves communally) and objectivism (man is a rational individual and all units larger than the individual are bad and society is bad and doing things for anything but your own gain is bad). What's the line between Objectivism and Egoism? E: Is it that Egoism disposes of the idea that man is rational and that society is made better when rational men get to do whatever they want, and just says "go hog wild who gives a gently caress?"
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Nov 15, 2020 21:31
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Yeah I think Egoism and Stirnerism and all that proto-Nietzschean poo poo were all about Will and Strength and whoever can take something possesses that thing as property, my slave, and it was all a bit "do what thou wilt" LeVeyian poo poo but without the candles. Also pretty much just to piss off the church/establishment in the same way. Whereas Objectivism is more about "beep boop I am a rational individual and that makes me better than the irrational and I will prove it by reinventing all philosophy from Aristotle as a rational individual by *long fart*"
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Nov 15, 2020 21:44
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JustJeff88 posted:Note that, like Jrod, they also make no mention of the utterly mad idea that the labour itself should be shared. This immediately reminded me of when fuckwit could not even conceive of the idea of multiple people collaborating to start a business/co-op/syndicate and so on; in the end, it always has to be one superior individual who clearly does all the work and deserves all of the reward. There were some excellent quotes from Star Citizen One guy was dreaming about how he would do paperwork in the captain's office of his big mining ship that he had paid US$1000s for a .jpg of, never once interacting with any of his crew, only issuing orders through his manager. Such orders included rewarding workers with better food if they hit production targets and selecting crew members to be marooned on deserted planets to start new mines. Literally, this guy was spitballing his idea of a utopia, and he was still doing admin alone in an office. But because he had got in early and had all the
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Nov 16, 2020 00:09
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The uh, capital ships, you might say
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Nov 16, 2020 00:10
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i literally cannot wait until star citizen releases in a form that is halfway playable and all of the eve online scammers descend upon a playerbase already proven to be the biggest rubes on earth "the ONLY legitimate jpg doubler in star citizen. send your jpg and get two jpgs in return. read my bio for the rules!"
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Nov 16, 2020 00:41
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Jazerus posted:i literally cannot wait until star citizen releases in a form that is halfway playable and all of the eve online scammers descend upon a playerbase already proven to be the biggest rubes on earth Libertarianism seems to leave one uniquely vulnerable to dishonesty and snake oil
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Nov 16, 2020 00:51
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what is Star Citizen I gather it's an office job simulation but IN SPAAAAAACE?
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Nov 16, 2020 01:13
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VitalSigns posted:what is Star Citizen a sociological experiment to see how many people will pay for fake spaceships if you tell them you're building an alternate universe with spaceships in it
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Nov 16, 2020 01:16
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It is a "game" made by some famous ancient game dude called chris roberts who made... I think it was Wing Commander? Some old space game i never plaayed but it is a bit of a classic apparently. He set up a crowdfunder for the BEST SPACE GAME EVER which was going to be simulating everything and be super multiplayer and it's going to be the best looking and all the spaceships are going to be super beautiful and you can walk around them and on planets and space stations and it'll be the best, and if you donate hundreds or thousands of dollars to fund the project you can get exclusive rare ultimate space ships that i have a jpeg of right here (when we get round to making them). People went loving nuts for it and splurged thousands of dollars on it and then croberts spent it all on cocaine and the game has been very slow to develop and it's buggy and incomplete and they keep releasing more amazing spaceships to buy for thousands of dollars and someday it will be good, eventually. Basically the most definitive terrible kickstarter that proved that people will pay anything for hopes and fairy dust. It does look very nice and it runs on the crysis engine or something but I have no idea if it has any actual gameplay yet. And if I want to play space capitalism simulator I will play X4, which is real and actually has a gameplay loop and is quite fun and only costs a normal game price. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 01:19
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