Stopping at Infinity: Baldur's Gate 1&2, Icewind Dale, Planescape:Torment.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stopping at Infinity: Baldur's Gate 1&2, Icewind Dale, Planescape:Torment.

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Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

Dr. Quarex posted:

One thing that really floored me in my most recent playthrough was now good some of the ambient soundtracks are. I was standing in the Gnoll Fortress after killing everything and just appreciating how beautiful the combination of the visuals and audio were. Same with how I sometimes get stuck listening to the nature sounds and watching the fish jumping on the Western edges of the literal Sword Coast screens.

Baldur's Gate and 2 have really good sound tracks, but oh man oh boy, Arcanum really takes the prize for soundtracks.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 16:51

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 16:36

zedprime: Jun 9, 2007; yospos

Rappaport posted:

You reserve the word "ugly", but then you say that this is the anti-thesis to it?

This is the equivalent of posting someone bashing a wolf in the copy paste cave with a storage crate, or maybe Firewine ruins. There is some great design to take in in Unreal. Halflife maybe needs more credit here but less castles to compare.

This was a wild thing to see in motion in 1998.

Rappaport posted:

I'm not sure the comparison to Age of Empires 2 is apt, either, since as you say that game had a procedural, repetitive map generation system. I'm not familiar with Starcraft () or Roller Coaster Tycoon, but I am assuming those feature procedurally generated maps and graphics as well.

Even if we say that Fallout 2 isn't a good comparison for bland, generic gray and repetitive backgrounds in an RPG, the scene was fairly bare outside of that. There was Star Control 2, which certainly had diverse landscapes, but they might still qualify as "ugly".

BG might be ugly but I like it enough to not want to insult it by saying "at least it looks better than Fallout 2." I'd slot BG probably right ahead of Jagged Alliance 2: I don't like it but it's not detracting.

You start similarly drawing attention in ways you shouldn't want if you start qualifying "best isometric hand designed RPG in 1998-99."

# ? Apr 28, 2023 17:23

Jay Rust: Sep 27, 2011

BG2 looks better than divinity original sin 2

# ? Apr 28, 2023 17:25

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

Posting an uglier screen shot in response to my screenshot kind of proves the point. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder. If you feel Baldur's Gate didn't live up to Jagged Alliance 2 or Fallout 2, OK. I don't think Baldur's Gate is ugly, but if the criteria is "does a tree repeat itself?" then I am certainly wrong.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 17:29

zedprime: Jun 9, 2007; yospos

What is your criteria? So far all I know is you think it's beautiful to look at BG and not at Unreal. Why?

It's not a competition. I'm genuinely curious because that's what web discussions should be.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 17:37

Rythian: Dec 31, 2007; You take what comes, and the rest is void.

I mean, to me it just seems a matter of taste. Subjective opinion on what type of old graphics work for you and what doesn't.

I like old pixel JRPG graphics and some of my friends can't stand it. On the flip side they swear by early PS1 or N64-era graphics, which I always thought aged horribly.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 17:43

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

It isn't a competition. I took umbrage at the word "ugly" when I probably should not have.

I think Baldur's Gate stands a better test of time, graphics-wise, than Unreal. I think the 3D models of that generation are bad. Of course one could have fun with 3D level geometry, just look at that secret Duke 3D level where a circle is 720 degrees.

Even if Baldur's Gate has copy-pasted town houses, and trees, it was still a fairly beautiful view of a fantasy world, when the other role-playing competitors were Fallout 2 and first-person dungeon crawlers, whose graphics I can't really comment on since I lack the nostalgia glasses for those.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 17:45

Vichan: Oct 1, 2014; I'LL PUNISH YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR CRIME

Rappaport posted:

You reserve the word "ugly", but then you say that this is the anti-thesis to it?

# ? Apr 28, 2023 18:44

goblin week: Jan 26, 2019; Absolute clown.

Dr. Quarex posted:

One thing that really floored me in my most recent playthrough was now good some of the ambient soundtracks are. I was standing in the Gnoll Fortress after killing everything and just appreciating how beautiful the combination of the visuals and audio were. Same with how I sometimes get stuck listening to the nature sounds and watching the fish jumping on the Western edges of the literal Sword Coast screens.

And I am not going to weigh in on the argument about graphics because clearly I am always happy as long as the little drawings look like what they are supposed to be, but this conversation really takes me back to when I first realized just how differently people could feel about what in a game was beyond the pale. This is an actual conversation that was so astounding we still reference it 20 years later when this friend complains about graphics

DR. QUAREX: Arcanum is awesome, you have to check this out *loads game*
ACTUAL HUMAN FRIEND: Oh is this the dwarves with guns game? Awesome!
DR.Q: Here it is, so you start in that zeppelin and--
AHF: Ugh, god, look at that grass.
DR.Q: The...grass?
AHF: How can you even stand to play games this ugly?

Arcanum was insanely ugly tbh

# ? Apr 28, 2023 19:32

Zeerust: May 1, 2008; They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Air Skwirl posted:

It's fine, it makes the terrible spells okay and the spells you always use because they are broken not that great.

docbeard posted:

I used it a fair bit this last Ironman season and yeah it's all right, but it's a bit No Fun Allowed in it's approach. It does make some rather nice changes too, though (like Sleep never stops scaling, though things wake up when you hit them). Also spreads summoning spells out a bit more (so there's at least one summon per spell level). I'd make sure you read up on its changes so you know what you're getting.

Of note, I did run into a rather nasty bug where things like Sleep and Charm that wear off when you attack the affected creature would instead always just wear off instantly. I think I had to install the Spell Revisions Revised version instead to fix that.

Thanks for the input. I've probably played enough BG over the last ~23 years that I'd enjoy having a spell list that isn't completely 'solved', even if it does remove a lot of the stronger buttons. At first glance, I really appreciate how it removed a lot of redundancy and made Druids a bit more distinctive with their spell list.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 20:23

i am a moron: Nov 12, 2020; "I think if there’s one thing we can all agree on it’s that Penn State and Michigan both suck and are garbage and it’s hilarious Michigan fans are freaking out thinking this is their natty window when they can’t even beat a B12 team in the playoffs lmao"

goblin week posted:

Arcanum was insanely ugly tbh

The fun quotient was off the charts though, one of the most unique RPGs ever made

# ? Apr 28, 2023 21:44

chaosapiant: Oct 10, 2012; White Line Fever

i am a moron posted:

The fun quotient was off the charts though, one of the most unique RPGs ever made

Really wish it got an Enhanced Edition treatment.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 22:16

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

TOVA TOVA TOVA

This conversation is really helping me reminisce about the argument I had that nearly escalated to a fistfight when my friend dared me in 1997? to name a better-looking game than Mario 64 and I said "well there are literally hundreds of examples but O.K., Myst?"

Polygons were EXTREMELY not my jam, honestly I had a hard time taking 3D games seriously until the mid-2000s because they just looked like a pile of sharp bullshit to me

# ? Apr 28, 2023 22:17

Mr E: Sep 18, 2007

chaosapiant posted:

Really wish it got an Enhanced Edition treatment.

Same. I didn�t play til last year after many attempts and it kicked rear end to go around shooting mages with a giant pistol I stole from a dude early on and have an amazing attack dog. There were a ton of bugs and such even with the very good unofficial patch and I�d love some of the assets to get at least a bit of an update.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 22:30

Ace Transmuter: May 19, 2017; I like video games

goblin week posted:

Arcanum was insanely ugly tbh

You want wasn't though? The manual.

# ? Apr 28, 2023 23:50

JustJeff88: Jan 15, 2008; I AM
CONSISTENTLY
ANNOYING
...
JUST TERRIBLE

THIS BADGE OF SHAME IS WORTH 0.45 DOUBLE DRAGON ADVANCES

of SA-Mart forever

Roller coaster Tyoons 1 & 2 are gorgeous and still look good today. Someone just remade a bunch of Mario Kart tricks in OpenRCT and it's basically the Nobel Prize winner for tweeness.

Dr. Quarex posted:

Polygons were EXTREMELY not my jam, honestly I had a hard time taking 3D games seriously until the mid-2000s because they just looked like a pile of sharp bullshit to me

3d/poly graphics will never age as well as 2d ones - see above. I can't explain why, but I've been gaming long enough to say that it is so.

# ? Apr 29, 2023 01:46

Shard: Jul 30, 2005

I love the ambient sound in these games. Going to Amn or Baldur's Gate sounds like a really active and alive city. I wish more games had so many different sound effects blending together as well as these games do. And I adore the soundtrack.

# ? Apr 29, 2023 04:28

Cat Hassler: Feb 7, 2006; Slippery Tilde

Shard posted:

I love the ambient sound in these games. Going to Amn or Baldur's Gate sounds like a really active and alive city. I wish more games had so many different sound effects blending together as well as these games do. And I adore the soundtrack.

It took me many playthroughs until I realized the quiet music that plays when you�re walking around Beregost or wherever is the same song as the loud and rousing one that you hear in the intro music, just a gentle version

# ? Apr 29, 2023 06:21

Max Wilco: Jan 23, 2012; I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

zedprime posted:

Yeah BG2 is fine which is why I said BG was ugly.

When I say repetitive I don't mean reuse of the same exact render (although I've looted the same chest sitting in a cave about 4 times now). I mean the trees and bushes in your gorgeous landscapes are copy pasted of the same render with no variability. I mean the textures in the bricks of your good wall are varying little or where it's varying is on a very computed period. I mean many of the marquee dungeons everyone remembers (mines, firewine etc.) are remembered for the wrong reason like that they are infinitely repeating splotches of brown and gray texture.

It's ok, it's kind of typical of someone doing software renders in the late 90s short of $Pixar budgets. Some of this is EE or TuTu problems as the view port in original gameplay was fairly tight which served to break things up.

IIRC the verbal history, post render touch up is only something they experimented with in BG given time, budget and expectations. By IWD and BG2, post touch up was in full effect and responsible much of the character I remember the games for. While BG2 has maybe more art (Athkatla has staggering detail in each map), I think IWD came out the better with the amount of attention paid on light sources and post render touch up.

I don't imagine there are any large, high quality captures of the BG maps, so let me just use the maps from Mike's RPG Center.

BG1 areas:

BG2/TOB areas:

I don't think BG1 looks bad, per se. There are some nice touches with things like the decorations in the cities (benches, carts, and other things you can't really see in these images), and color choices in the flora (grass is tinted differently depending on the region it's located). However, looking at it side-by-side with the BG2 maps, you do see a lot of shortcomings. I think the BG2 maps do a much better job of conveying depth, and more varied terrain, whereas a lot of the BG1 areas look kind of flat (in fairness though, BG2 areas like the Graveyard District are constructed to have more height variation with the architecture, which BG1 also achieves with structures like Durlag's Tower and the Gnoll Stronghold). In particular, I think the rocks and cliff formations in BG1 look pretty weak. In the Gibberling Mountains map (the one marked with Hafiz and Lena), the stratum patterns in the cliffs sticks out, and the way the top of the cliffs and the walkable areas meet, it doesn't really come off like a natural cliff edge; it seems more like they generated the cliffs, then painted over it with the grass.

BG1's urban areas also look a little washed out, I think because of the lighting. There is lighting applied to the scenes, because you can see shadows being cast. However, the lighting in the BG2 areas is a little more dynamic, with metal domes or the tops of towers. Combine that with the brighter color choices for buildings, and I think the BG2 areas just have a lot more definition to them.

I looked up that verbal history (which I'm guessing this article, and not David Craddock's Beneath a Starless Sky, which I still need to read), there's this section:

quote:

Oster: Initially, [Baldur�s Gate] was projected as a top-down isometric game using big pieces of custom art. It�s funny, because early on, the art team actually wasn�t very technical and the plan was to build all these pieces that would fit together and build this background out of all these tile pieces. When we did the tech test on it, we just couldn�t consistently produce tile-able art that looked good. And the custom art, just making big areas that were all custom images, looked so much better. We just kind of parked our technology plan and moved over and said, let�s just embrace this fact. If our tech artists can�t make tile-able stuff, let�s just make awesome looking random stuff that�s just kind of spread out all over. It looks way more organic. And it was one of those early limitations that turned into a mass strength.

Tofer: Do you remember Cass [Cassidy Scott] putting together the first female prototypes? They were trying to differentiate between the girls and the boys, but at so few pixels, we just wanted one pixel to show the difference and he had to make these completely unrealistic body proportions. He was like, this isn�t right.

Oster: Yeah, because the camera was up at about a 45-degree angle shooting down. So, even to make the male characters look normal, we had to extend their legs. So everybody probably had about 4-foot-long legs and their torso was about two feet tall, with their head included. Everything was just so distorted when you saw the actual render of the image from head-on. In order to sell it from that top-down perspective, you really had to change a lot of things. It�s just one of those things we kept fighting with and fighting with and fighting with until eventually you kind of arrived at a solution that looked passable.

I think it's the case with a lot of games, where (generally) the sequel looks better because the team has already nailed down the basic look or style, and is able to build on it (a bigger budget probably helps, too).

# ? Apr 29, 2023 19:35

FishMcCool: Apr 9, 2021; lolcats are still funny; Fallen Rib

Max Wilco posted:

I think it's the case with a lot of games, where (generally) the sequel looks better because the team has already nailed down the basic look or style, and is able to build on it (a bigger budget probably helps, too).

And then, there's Dark Sun, where the og nailed down a look and style that worked, and the sequel managed to ruin it with some weird attempt at perspective.

Regarding IE maps, Icewind Dale has some spectacular ones. That game is pretty.

# ? Apr 29, 2023 19:47

Max Wilco: Jan 23, 2012; I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

JustJeff88 posted:

Roller coaster Tyoons 1 & 2 are gorgeous and still look good today. Someone just remade a bunch of Mario Kart tricks in OpenRCT and it's basically the Nobel Prize winner for tweeness.

3d/poly graphics will never age as well as 2d ones - see above. I can't explain why, but I've been gaming long enough to say that it is so.

Rythian posted:

I mean, to me it just seems a matter of taste. Subjective opinion on what type of old graphics work for you and what doesn't.

I like old pixel JRPG graphics and some of my friends can't stand it. On the flip side they swear by early PS1 or N64-era graphics, which I always thought aged horribly.

I think it depends a lot on what games in particular you're talking about. In general, I think that games that tried to lean into being realistic aged worse, but games that went for a more cartoonish or stylized look still hold up pretty well.

Even then, though, you had games like Gran Turismo 1&2 that leaned into realism, and was able to pull off some effects that are still pretty impressive for the time:

Mind you, these are all PS1 games, which I'm kind of biased towards. With N64, the same thing goes with the cartoon/stylized look still holding up (Mario 64, Banjo Kazooie, Conker, Mystical Ninja Goemon, etc.), but what irks me with N64 is that the texture-filtering which makes a lot of the games look blurry. There's tons of PC games we could go through, but I don't want to derail the thread.

FishMcCool posted:

And then, there's Dark Sun, where the og nailed down a look and style that worked, and the sequel managed to ruin it with some weird attempt at perspective.

Yeah, that is kind of a downgrade.

# ? Apr 29, 2023 20:26

Zeniel: Oct 18, 2013

Rappaport posted:

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder.

Ah c'mon now. Eye of the Beholder looked perfectly fine!

# ? Apr 29, 2023 22:13

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

Zeniel posted:

Ah c'mon now. Eye of the Beholder looked perfectly fine!

That game starts out with several sewer levels, and we all know the curse about sewer levels.

The titular Beholder was sort of cool I suppose, but it doesn't really compare to the Spectator we all know and love from BG2. Although their physiology still confuses me, they're all mouth and no guts!

# ? Apr 29, 2023 23:16

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Rappaport posted:

That game starts out with several sewer levels, and we all know the curse about sewer levels.

The titular Beholder was sort of cool I suppose, but it doesn't really compare to the Spectator we all know and love from BG2. Although their physiology still confuses me, they're all mouth and no guts!

There are three different takes on beholder anatomy in D&D but basically it's weird because it's a fuckin alien/aberration/monstrosity floating eyeball. So food goes in the mouth and actually gets pulled back and UNDER the tongue into an esophagus/stomach. So the guts are under the mouth and behind, and the food dissolves in stomachs and then gets passed up into the lungs/diaphragm (beholders don't have hearts) where it's actually added into the blood.

# ? Apr 29, 2023 23:49

Node: May 20, 2001; KICKED IN THE COOTER; Taco Defender

Managed to take down Sarevok in BG1 on my first try, compared to way, way more before. Thankfully I remembered to keep the right potions for the final battle, particularly Potions of Freedom and magic resistance.

I don't know how you could beat him if you didn't have to resort to tactics like spamming the map with summon monster wands, or kiting him around like a mmorpg.

# ? Apr 30, 2023 00:08

Suspicious: Apr 30, 2005; You know he's the villain, because he's got shifty eyes.

You are meant to be the underdog and require a shitload of magical assistance to beat him. Imagine how boring it would be if it was just another inept assassination attempt.

# ? Apr 30, 2023 02:06

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

Suspicious posted:

You are meant to be the underdog and require a shitload of magical assistance to beat him. Imagine how boring it would be if it was just another inept assassination attempt.

It'd be like poetry. It'd rhyme

# ? Apr 30, 2023 02:14

Shard: Jul 30, 2005

I wonder how Dare ok compared to the other children. Like if he made it to the end could he take on the five or were they stronger. I like to think he was second strongest and had the bad luck to run into you first.

Also I hate how cannon says Bhaal eventually came back and your character died. Lame.

# ? Apr 30, 2023 05:22

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

TOVA TOVA TOVA

Shard posted:

I wonder how Dare ok compared to the other children. Like if he made it to the end could he take on the five or were they stronger. I like to think he was second strongest and had the bad luck to run into you first.

I mean Dare O.K. would have probably had a hard time taking out the guy who was literally invincible if not for the One Weird Trick Bhaalspawn Do Not Want You To Know, but I would have no problem saying he was 3rd. Or 2nd if he could have also, you know, done what the protagonist does

# ? Apr 30, 2023 06:37

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

Shard posted:

I wonder how Dare ok compared to the other children. Like if he made it to the end could he take on the five or were they stronger. I like to think he was second strongest and had the bad luck to run into you first.

Also I hate how cannon says Bhaal eventually came back and your character died. Lame.

No the lore says Bhaal came back and Abdel died. Your character is in an alternate universe where Abdel didn't exist, so presumably things in that universe happen differently. Abdel is a gently caress up though, so it stands to reason that he dies.

# ? Apr 30, 2023 06:50

zedprime: Jun 9, 2007; yospos

Notably Abdel didn't ascend.

Also lol, when checking this I noticed the Bhaalspawn used to force a fight and his return is comic relief side quest Viekang.

# ? Apr 30, 2023 13:33

goblin week: Jan 26, 2019; Absolute clown.

zedprime posted:

Notably Abdel didn't ascend.

Also lol, when checking this I noticed the Bhaalspawn used to force a fight and his return is comic relief side quest Viekang.

I will be eternally pissed off that I had notes on Viekang NPC mod way before Murder In Baldur's Gate was announced and now it's just pointless to do

# ? Apr 30, 2023 13:36

JustJeff88: Jan 15, 2008; I AM
CONSISTENTLY
ANNOYING
...
JUST TERRIBLE

THIS BADGE OF SHAME IS WORTH 0.45 DOUBLE DRAGON ADVANCES

of SA-Mart forever

quote:

I think it depends a lot on what games in particular you're talking about. In general, I think that games that tried to lean into being realistic aged worse, but games that went for a more cartoonish or stylized look still hold up pretty well

That's a fair point. I think that the EoB games as well as Dungeon Hack and other games made in that engine still hold up well today, visually. Meanwhile, the Ravenloft/Menzoberranzan/Ravenloft trilogy look rather rough, though I would have a hard time explaining why.

PS1/Saturn was when a lot of devs started throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I'm very fond of the Strike games (Desert, Jungle, Urban, Soviet & Nuclear) and have been replaying them recently. The first three on Mega Drive etc looked quite nice, but the latter two still look ugly to me today. They play well, but something about them just looks faded and ragged. That said, one thing I did like about the latter two was, with the greater number of buttons on PS1/Saturn controlllers, they added a 4th weapon and they also greatly reduced the rate of fuel consumption. In the first three games I sometimes think that I spent more time refueling than playing and usually just turned that poo poo off with a Game Genie code.

JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Apr 30, 2023

# ? Apr 30, 2023 16:17

Zeerust: May 1, 2008; They must have guessed, once or twice - guessed and refused to believe - that everything, always, collectively, had been moving toward that purified shape latent in the sky, that shape of no surprise, no second chance, no return.

Does Carsomyr's on-hit Dispel effect get rid of the target's Stoneskins in the Enhanced Editions? I remember in BG2 classic it didn't, for some reason.

# ? May 2, 2023 18:49

Max Wilco: Jan 23, 2012; I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

Realized it's been like two weeks since I did the last BG2 novel update. Keep getting side-tracked with other things.

Chapter 13 starts with the trio (Abdel, Jaheria, and Imoen), now in the Underdark, being attacked by rockworms. I did a Google search to see if rockworms are an enemy in BG2, and one of the first results is for the novel, as it was part of the summary:

quote:

Bhaal is dead!

But his disciples want to bring him back. The blood of the god of murder runs through his children, and bad blood attracts bad people.

Shadow Thieves, vampires, ninjas, and rockworms run rampant on the Sword Coast in the action-packed novelization of the Baldur's Gate II computer game from BioWare and Interplay.

Are there ninjas in BG2?

There's a fight scene, during which Imoen...

quote:

Abdel stood, his vision starting to come back, and stepped over the twitching, jawless rockworm as it finished dying. He ran and stumbled at the same time to Jaheira�s side, coming around a stalagmite. He could hear more of the rockworms skittering in the darkness.

Next to the base of the stone column, Imoen was lying, gasping for breath like a drowning woman. Jaheira kneeled over her and began praying. She held the tiny rock she always kept close to her in one hand, and her other hand slid deftly across the wound, smearing bubbling crimson blood over Imoen�s shredded chest.

�By the black gods,� Abdel muttered, �she�s been� half� eaten.�

Luckily, Jaheira's able to heal her. However, as more rockworms start gathering, Abdel morphs into the "Slayer" and kills them. After he morphs back to normal, they continue on through the Underdark. They stop to rest, and while Imoen rests, Abdel and Jaheira talk.

quote:

�That necromancer�or whatever he is�did something to me,� Abdel said. �I�d be happy to let him go wherever he�s going in peace�at least if it meant I could climb out of this hole once and for all�but he��

�He has plans for you,� Jaheira told him with obvious certainty. �He must have plans for you both. If he�s going to attack Suldanessellar for some reason, maybe he intends to use you as a kind of weapon.�

�But you said he couldn�t control us, me and Imoen,� Abdel said, nodding at the sleeping girl. �What does he mean to do� get me to go there, then get me angry? Let me ravage the place in the form of some� whatever it is?�

Jaheira shrugged, her face a dark mask of fear. �That could be enough.� She shuddered visibly and added, �You couldn�t believe what��

This is something that pops up throughout the book. Irenicus is constantly referred to as a 'necromancer' instead of wizard, even though I don't think he does any actual necromancy throughout the book (at least none I can remember).

Jaheira inquires how Abdel was able to find the two of them.

quote:

�You never told me how you found us,� Jaheira said. �How did you know to come to that madhouse?�

�It was Bodhi�� Abdel blushed and turned away. He hadn�t considered� but that had just been a dream, hadn�t it? He hadn�t really touched Bodhi that way, been touched that way by�

Jaheira looked as if she was going to say something, but Abdel looked at her in such a way that made her keep quiet. Jaheira could see that Abdel was thinking deeply about something. He could see her recognize this, and her face changed, softened somehow even as the corners of her mouth drew down.

�Vampires have certain powers, Abdel,� she said. He shook his head in answer, but she continued, �You weren�t necessarily��

�Stop,� he said, too loudly. �Please.�

�We should take advantage of Imoen�s need for rest,� she said, not looking at him, �and rest ourselves.�

Abdel nodded, but neither he nor Jaheira moved for a long time.

But wait: Abdel's never mentioned Bodhi to Jaheira prior to this point, and unless I'm misinterpreting the Bodhi & Abdel scene, I don't think Abdel realized that Bodhi was a vampire (or if he did, the book didn't make that realization clear). The madman in the last chapter mentioned Irenicus being accompanied by a vampire, but it kind of feels like a jump in logic.

Speaking of Bodhi, Chapter 14 starts with a scene of her meeting with Phaere.

quote:

�Your skin,� Bodhi said, her eyes sliding slowly along the drow�s lithe body, �it�s so� May I touch you?�

The drow woman smiled and shrugged. Bodhi brushed the back of one finger against the drow�s cheek, and the woman leaned into the touch, smiling. Bodhi recognized the subtext of that smile. She�d offered it herself in the past, usually right before she made a vampiric thrall out of someone.

�Satisfied?� the drow Phaere asked playfully.

�No,� Bodhi replied, taking her hand away, �but there are other� priorities tonight.�

We then transition back to our trio of heroes, still travelling through the Underdark, when the encounter a mist.

quote:

�It can be dangerous down here,� an unfamiliar voice echoed out of the mist.

Abdel stopped, planting his feet, ready for anything, even though the voice was obviously a young woman�s and not terribly threatening on its surface.

�Over there,� Imoen said and pointed into the swirling heart of the mist.

It was a girl in her late teens. She was pretty and blonde, with features so perfect she looked like some Netherese statue�the kind people said were actually petrified slaves made perfect by magic, then frozen as stone for all time. She was dressed in a simple white silk toga, and a fine silver chain wove through her almost white hair. Her eyes were crystal blue and glistened in the feeble torchlight.

�You don�t have to be afraid of me,� she said. �My name is Adalon.�

�I�m not afraid of you,� Abdel told her, �but I find it hard to believe that a girl like you could just happen to be wandering around down here alone, cloaked in mist, casually strolling through the Underdark like��

She cut him off with a laugh that implied a wisdom greater than her age. �Not much gets by you, does it Abdel Adrian, Son of Bhaal, Savior of Baldur�s Gate?�

�Why do people keep calling me that?� Abdel asked. It was his way of asking how she could possibly know him.

�You work with Irenicus,� Imoen assumed aloud.

A look of impatience crossed Adalon�s pretty features for half a heartbeat, then she smiled and said, �Not in a million years, Imoen.�

�But you know us,� Jaheira said. �You�re here waiting for us. Tell us what you want.�

�I want to help you,� she said.

Abdel sighed and stepped closer to her, his sword still in his hand. She didn�t seem the least bit afraid of him.

�We�re not even sure how to help ourselves,� he said. �Who or what are you, and what do you want with us? What does Irenicus want with us?�

A flash of yellow light passed in front of his eyes, and somehow the girl seemed to notice it.

�Calm yourself, Abdel,� Adalon said. �He�s changed you. He�s brought out what was inside of you�what you, with Jaheira�s help, have managed to keep deep inside of you. Your father�s blood powers his avatar, and you will lose yourself to it if you let yourself.�

So here in the book, Adalon just seeks out Abdel, and not only knows who he is, but that he's transforming.

That 'way of asking how she could know him' line is very awkward, but I realized that titles she lists appear earlier in the book.

Chapter 4 posted:

�Yoshy-boy brought you here because he knows I know what�s going on around here, Abdel Adrian, Son of Bhaal, Savior of Baldur�s Gate, friend of the missing Imoen who was taken by Shadow Thieves who were none too happy about your late half-brother�s bandying their not-so-good name about the Gate� oh,� he said, �does that sound like I might know what I�m��

Chapter 9 posted:

So that was it? All this Son of Bhaal this and Savior of Baldur�s Gate that, and here he was floating above his cooling corpse in some gods-forsaken madhouse on an island no one bothered to even name? And people�smart people like Gorion and Jaheira�thought he had some greater destiny. He felt like a fool, but worse, he felt like he�d made a fool of them.

Also, that 'million years' line does not seem like something Adalon would say.

Anyway, like in the game, she asks Abdel to go and rescue her eggs from Ust Natha. The three are a little skeptical of Adalon, but she transforms into her dragon form as proof.

Adalon then basically summarizes the rest of the plot.

quote:

�You will save Suldanessellar,� her voice washed through the cavern from a throat eight times as long as Abdel was tall. �I will give you the way into Ust Natha. You will find my eggs and return them to me. You will defeat the plans of Irenicus there and stop the drow army from invading the glens of Tethir. You will return to me, and I will lead you out of this gods-forsaken hole in the ground. You will confront Irenicus and regain your soul from him if it leads you to Hell. You know you never had any choice, Abdel Adrian, Son of Bhaal, Pawn of Evil, Tool of Good.�

�I know,� Abdel whispered. �I know.�

"Yeah, yeah, I'll go to Ust Natha, save your eggs, then go up to the surface, talk to the elves, get tasked with saving their lantern or whatever, spend like six months doing all the side quests I forgot to do earlier, go to Suldanessellar, kill Irenicus, do a bunch of trials in Hell, then kill Irenicus again, and then import my save into Throne of Bhaal."

Adalon then does the spell that transforms them into drow, and Abdel is having none of it.

quote:

�That�s�� Imoen said. �That�s just��

�You�ll look like drow, sound like drow, be able to understand the language of the drow,� the dragon said confidently (she said everything confidently). �You�ll have access to the city� but only for a short time. The spell will wear off in��

�This is so bad,� Abdel said. �This is insane. We all belong back in that madhouse.�

�Abdel�� Jaheira said, a warning tone in her voice.

Abdel sighed, thought for a second about being quiet, going along with the whole thing as Jaheira obviously wanted him to do.

�No,� he said, turning his back on the dragon, �this is ridiculous. Why would we ever do this? We�re going to just stroll into a drow city� a drow city� because we happen to run into a dragon who tells us we should, so we can defeat the plans of someone who, as far as we�re concerned, has already been defeated. We�re together. I got what I wanted. So this Irenicus is going to attack some elf town I�m not welcome in anyway. That sounds more like their problem than mine.�

�Abdel,� Jaheira said, her voice impatient but gentle, �I know you don�t really believe that. You can�t let Irenicus have his way with innocent people.�

�And what about all this Bhaal stuff?� Imoen asked. �You think it�s all right that we just sort of turn into mindless murdering monsters from time to time?�

�There is very little time for�� the dragon started.

�So you think he�s going to just reverse that if we find him?� Abdel asked. �He probably wouldn�t even know how to if we could somehow convince him to do it. I�m not even convinced it was any of his doing. My blood has betrayed me in more ways than that, with very little outside help.�

Abdel turned on Jaheira and said, �You wanted me to change, so I�ve changed. Now you want me to go off on a mission of vengeance. We follow Irenicus to this elf town, then what? Kill him? Ask him to reverse that ritual? Beg him to?�

�I�ll be more than happy to kill him,� Imoen offered, �if you don�t want to.�

Abdel crouched and put his head in his hands. �So let�s kill him, but do we have to��

He didn�t see the dragon pull in a deep, full breath, but he stopped talking when a blast of freezing cold air actually picked him up and blew him off his feet. There was a series of screams from deeper in the cavern. Abdel rolled to his feet, bits of white frost falling off him like snowflakes. He spun in the direction of the screams and saw half a dozen figures quite literally frozen in place, ice hanging from them and pieces of them already snapping off under their own weight. Behind them, another half dozen figures scattered among the stalactites. The torchlight was dim, but it didn�t take Abdel more than a second to realize the figures were drow.

That's the end of Chapter 14, and today's post. I'll try to get better about posting these. We're at the halfway point, so hopefully it won't take me until July to cover the rest.

# ? May 4, 2023 02:30

Node: May 20, 2001; KICKED IN THE COOTER; Taco Defender

Before I beat Dragonspear and import my character to Shadows of Amn, I know there are a few items, some even exclusive to SOD, that are imported to BG2. I probably need to have those items in my main character's inventory (not on companion's) if they are to transfer, right? When should I save my game so I know which file to import over to BG2?

# ? May 8, 2023 04:14

Ginette Reno: Nov 18, 2006; How Doers get more done; Fun Shoe

Node posted:

Before I beat Dragonspear and import my character to Shadows of Amn, I know there are a few items, some even exclusive to SOD, that are imported to BG2. I probably need to have those items in my main character's inventory (not on companion's) if they are to transfer, right? When should I save my game so I know which file to import over to BG2?

If memory serves you do need to have them in your inventory or equipped by your PC in order for them to import.

This article lists what items import. If you scroll down there's a section on SOD items that import: https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Importing

# ? May 8, 2023 04:22

Node: May 20, 2001; KICKED IN THE COOTER; Taco Defender

Ginette Reno posted:

If memory serves you do need to have them in your inventory or equipped by your PC in order for them to import.

This article lists what items import. If you scroll down there's a section on SOD items that import: https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Importing

Right, I worded it poorly. When should I put the the items my companions are using in my main character's inventory? I don't remember which save file the game uses when transferring items to BG2.

# ? May 8, 2023 04:27

Ginette Reno: Nov 18, 2006; How Doers get more done; Fun Shoe

Node posted:

Right, I worded it poorly. When should I put the the items my companions are using in my main character's inventory? I don't remember which save file the game uses when transferring items to BG2.

Usually what I do is after I escape from the Flaming Fist headquarters I get my inventory together, make a final save, name it whatever, and then use that when I import.

# ? May 8, 2023 04:40

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 16:36

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

TOVA TOVA TOVA

The system of items transferring between the three games has always been interesting to me because it is so much more convoluted than it should be. Did they really think it was going to be too overpowered if you let a character bring in like a chain mail +2 AND a helmet +1 or whatever some of those either/or choices were

And even beyond power level considerations, I remember the first time I played a fighter-type through the series I somehow managed to build him exactly right to be wearing like nothing that transferred (in the dark days when I did use the Internet but mostly for chat rather than assuming I could instantly find anything I was curious about, so I probably did not even realize someone had a perfect understanding of the system)

# ? May 8, 2023 05:07

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stopping at Infinity: Baldur's Gate 1&2, Icewind Dale, Planescape:Torment.

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