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Prav posted:if OSHA and overtime laws are so great, why have socialism at all? So workers have a say in the decisions of their company and keep their surplus value
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May 30, 2019 16:23
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Karl Barks posted:I think this is true of any "socialist-ish" mode of production that exists inside a capitalist framework. a co-op is just a governance model/structure, it's in some ways ambivalent to the superstructure around it. That's all true, but conditions also improve at-scale. An SOE has enough resources available to it that it doesn't really need to compete with the market if it doesn't want to. The purpose of any SOE is to provide strategically important resources and services, unless it's chartered to pursue profit. A co-op can only acquire funding through the market, whereas SOEs can be funded through the state. Obviously neither is socialism, but working in an SOE can be a lot less precarious than working in a co-op.
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May 30, 2019 16:26
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Prav posted:if OSHA and overtime laws are so great, why have socialism at all? there will still be labor laws under communism, I'd wager
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May 30, 2019 16:26
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State capitalism is superior to co-ops because it represents the democratic control of resources and not just the prevention of theft surplus value
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May 30, 2019 16:32
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coops are reformist and volunteerist organizations do not have the cultural capital to attack the capitalist consensus, which is what really matters anyway
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May 30, 2019 16:41
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coops are for the birds. coups are where its at
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May 30, 2019 17:06
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:State capitalism is superior to co-ops because it represents the democratic control of resources and not just the prevention of theft surplus value Jeez even outside of the Dem thread your takes are incredibly bad
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May 30, 2019 17:09
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wj is only saying that because bernie has recently been talking up coops and wj is a one issue anti-bernie voter, and happily does wild swings in ideology to justify it
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May 30, 2019 17:24
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Rated PG-34 posted:coops are for the birds. coups are where its at not terribly democratic, I prefer revolutions
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May 30, 2019 17:25
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:wj is only saying that because bernie has recently been talking up coops and wj is a one issue anti-bernie voter, and happily does wild swings in ideology to justify it this post is pure revisionism
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May 30, 2019 17:36
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how ‘bout this: let’s abolish all labor
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May 30, 2019 17:41
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Flowers For Algeria posted:how ‘bout this: let’s abolish all labor 
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May 30, 2019 17:48
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May 30, 2019 17:59
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The Labor Theory of Value: Labor is just a Theory, there's more Value in playing Apex Legends for 16 hours a day
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May 30, 2019 18:00
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Flowers For Algeria posted:how ‘bout this: let’s abolish all labor eliminating emotional labor by telling my two year old to get their own water
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May 30, 2019 18:06
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May 30, 2019 18:07
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I would absolutely rather work for a SOE than a co-op
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May 30, 2019 18:17
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Pablo Nergigante posted:The Labor Theory of Value: Labor is just a Theory, there's more Value in playing Apex Legends for 16 hours a day 
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May 30, 2019 18:17
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Jewel Repetition posted:The reason Luxembourg gives for coops being untenable in a market filled with capitalists is that the workers would have to work themselves for intolerably hard the same way capitalist exploiters do. But that's not as relevant in the modern day when we have overtime laws and OSHA and stuff it's absolutely relevant now. The current generation of workers are working harder than ever while making less in wages and often working longer hours. Our unions are weaker and our working lives more difficult.
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May 30, 2019 18:19
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i say swears online posted:I would absolutely rather work for a SOE than a co-op I briefly considered looking into government work and then realized something like half all employees are permanently contractualized
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May 30, 2019 19:18
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Flowers For Algeria posted:only if you don’t extirpate the capitalist ideology from the workers minds that takes the construction of a new Soviet Man
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May 30, 2019 21:11
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's still relevant because capitalists break labor regulations all the time. That doesn't mean that coops are ipso facto "untenable," but actually existing coops still have to accumulate surplus value to survive under market conditions. Co-op workers basically end up having to exploit themselves or others anyway, as is the case where Mondragon employs seasonal labor that doesn't have any stake in the company. no they don't, read the OP
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May 30, 2019 21:14
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Flowers For Algeria posted:how ‘bout this: let’s abolish all labor Oh? You wouldn't even be born 
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May 30, 2019 21:18
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Homeless Friend posted:Oh? You wouldn't even be born all the more reason imo
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May 30, 2019 21:42
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:State capitalism is superior to co-ops because it represents the democratic control of resources and not just the prevention of theft surplus value https://twitter.com/NorthKoreaDPRK/status/1134210206584528896
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May 30, 2019 23:23
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more democratic and collective workplaces are good but they're not some magic bullet that's going to turn the capitalists into powerless paupers the way the capitalists slowly killed the guilds before them. people who believe that kind of have a fundamental misunderstanding of a whole lot of poo poo imo.
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May 31, 2019 01:26
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a network of cooperatives for small production and artisans buttressed by state-owned heavy industry and key planks of the economy works really well so long as they are coordinated by a workers' state. you know who did those exact things?????
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May 31, 2019 02:25
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R. Guyovich posted:a network of cooperatives for small production and artisans buttressed by state-owned heavy industry and key planks of the economy works really well so long as they are coordinated by a workers' state. hmmm HMMMM *thinking really hard, eyes shifting back and forth between the username and the post, brain is practically fuming*
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May 31, 2019 02:49
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R. Guyovich posted:a network of cooperatives for small production and artisans buttressed by state-owned heavy industry and key planks of the economy works really well so long as they are coordinated by a workers' state. huge if true
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May 31, 2019 03:28
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there's actually several correct answers
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May 31, 2019 03:30
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R. Guyovich posted:a network of cooperatives for small production and artisans buttressed by state-owned heavy industry and key planks of the economy works really well Imperial Japa-... R. Guyovich posted:so long as they are coordinated by a workers' state. dammit!
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May 31, 2019 03:33
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R. Guyovich posted:a network of cooperatives for small production and artisans buttressed by state-owned heavy industry and key planks of the economy works really well so long as they are coordinated by a workers' state.
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May 31, 2019 05:22
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R. Guyovich posted:a network of cooperatives for small production and artisans buttressed by state-owned heavy industry and key planks of the economy works really well so long as they are coordinated by a workers' state. so you mean like an overarching union of workers' councils (is there a shorter phrase for that?)
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May 31, 2019 05:56
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R. Guyovich posted:a network of cooperatives for small production and artisans buttressed by state-owned heavy industry and key planks of the economy works really well so long as they are coordinated by a workers' state. i like to use this as my answer when talking with people who think communism = the state owns all the video game factories
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May 31, 2019 05:59
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I didn't even know Bernie had mentioned coops, I just had them on my mind because I think a lot about market socialism
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May 31, 2019 06:00
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3 posted:so you mean like an overarching union of workers' councils (is there a shorter phrase for that?) A workers’...... council???! Like in GERMANY? I’m confused
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May 31, 2019 06:32
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I heard there was a country based on worker councils But I need a Sun article to update me first to confirm it’s true
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May 31, 2019 06:34
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R. Guyovich posted:a network of cooperatives for small production and artisans buttressed by state-owned heavy industry and key planks of the economy works really well so long as they are coordinated by a workers' state.
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May 31, 2019 06:39
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Jewel Repetition posted:I didn't even know Bernie had mentioned coops, I just had them on my mind because I think a lot about market socialism you really shouldn't
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May 31, 2019 09:18
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:paris commune??? famous purveyors of heavy industry, the paris commune
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May 31, 2019 09:19
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