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The vampire hunger mechanic sucks because as soon as you enter a branch without a fair amount of edible corpses you get hosed. I had to convert to Mahkleb just to clear Spider once. If you could actually store potions to manage your hunger it would be fine but they just decay so you have to follow a healing god if you have any plans of doing extended or spider decides to spawn. Which since you're unholy means you just worship Mahk I guess. Pakellas worked too but RIP that option.
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Jan 27, 2017 04:17
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Trog and Kiku work too
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Jan 27, 2017 04:35
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PotatoManJack posted:Maybe I should hit up Tartarus or start trawling through Pan. Any suggestions on which is the next easiest place to go? I like Pan then Hell before Abyss because usually there's going to be a monster that'll banish you along the way to get all eight runes. May as well get it done then and not have to make a trip specifically for it. And Pan is a lot more friendly in letting you find quiet corners to heal up; hell effects sort of prevent that. It's purely personal preference though and I wouldn't poo poo doing Tartarus next. Dis can be surprisingly bursty between Iron Dragons and Iron Giants, along with Sentinels being hard to kill and willing to hellfire. Then you have Gehenna which as a plane of fire kind of reduces Firestorm's effectiveness.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:03
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Sage Grimm posted:I like Pan then Hell before Abyss because usually there's going to be a monster that'll banish you along the way to get all eight runes. May as well get it done then and not have to make a trip specifically for it. And Pan is a lot more friendly in letting you find quiet corners to heal up; hell effects sort of prevent that. Thanks. I've decided to go Pan, and it seems to be going well, although Lom Lobom got really dicey. I took the stairs and arrived 3 spaces away from him. Was down to 12hp at one stage. but managed to get through it.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:45
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kaschei posted:Trog and Kiku work too Trog seems questionable for a vamp given they can't berserk (or can they? I can never remember). Kiku definitely does work though now that all the corpses are fresh.
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Jan 27, 2017 05:52
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Vampires can transmute and berserk as long as they are full. Which isn't very helpful for areas without blood but does make Trog okay as a general vampire god. Trogs hand and increased chances of finding a vampiric weapon would help a lot with spider though.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:03
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They can either berserk (alive, full) or use bat form (everything else). But Trog's Hand always works even at bloodless. I think Kiku's has always delivered fresh corpses? Maybe a mix including fresh? It's been a while.
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Jan 27, 2017 06:05
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Well, I'd better win an EE at some point, and surely Veh will help bycode:I still found enough in books(plus Fireball/Bolt of Cold) to cobble together a decent spell list, but drat. quote:Kiku
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Jan 27, 2017 06:52
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Haifisch posted:I thought Kiku delivered branch-specific corpses, making them semi-useless for blood in spider? Or am I misremembering wildly? She does. Unless you can drain blood from entropy weavers then Kiku would be useless in Spider for managin hunger. Really its pretty dumb and its one of those flavor things that should be changed for the sake of gameplay. Who cares if ichor and blood aren't the same thing just let vampires eat bugs.
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Jan 27, 2017 07:04
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Eela6 posted:Not sure what you're talking about buddy. Enchanters are good at enchantments. Sludge elves had -2 in Enchantments!
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Jan 27, 2017 07:07
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PleasingFungus posted:not sure what was particularly attractive about sludge elf enchanter; +0 hexes is not really amazing. spriggans & vampires are popular for enchanters generally, though most races will work, since it's a pretty strong background. Oh poo poo sorry I meant transmuters the Blade Hands guys, what's a good race now. Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 13:06
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Merfolk is the choice if you want great apts so your skills grow quickly. Draconian can be quite good too, with high HP and built-in defenses. Those are probably best if your goal is just to use blade hands. If you're playing trunk, ogres make pretty beastly transmuters since they now have reasonable aptitudes, high Str, which strongly influences damage on top-tier transmuations, and +30% HP for little downside. They're great early, but later you really hope you find a replacement for blade hands.
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Jan 27, 2017 13:34
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Merfolk is the choice if you want great apts so your skills grow quickly. Draconian can be quite good too, with high HP and built-in defenses. Those are probably best if your goal is just to use blade hands. If you're playing trunk, ogres make pretty beastly transmuters since they now have reasonable aptitudes, high Str, which strongly influences damage on top-tier transmuations, and +30% HP for little downside. They're great early, but later you really hope you find a replacement for blade hands. Blade Hands is actually pretty good for the entire game, including extended. Other late game forms are nice to have for resists and looking cool (and defenses from Statue Form if your species can't wear body armor), but Blade Hands technically beats all of them in straight damage output.
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Jan 27, 2017 13:55
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I didn't phrase that properly. Dragon form outdamages blade hands (unless you have no str and crazy dex, maybe?), but comes with an extreme drawback. But in terms of overall power, I agree that blade hands is the best transmutation, because unlike all the others, it just amps up your unarmed damage to a crazy degree without any particularly significant drawback. It makes you like most other standard melee characters, except you'll probably use lighter armor so you can cast it. But I like statue form and dragon form more for ogres. Mostly that likely just comes from an overall bias against blade hands, since I think it's terribly boring. But statue form also gives great defenses with huge HP and nice resists for a species with limited slots. Dragon form on an ogre gives the highest damage output in the game combined with the highest HP. You can even maintain acceptable defense if you have ozo's armor and Chei. A dragonogre can lose 200 HP to cheiwalking next to an orb of fire and not be very bothered because you're still more than half full and you know you're probably going to kill it in one hit.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:34
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The significant drawback is that blade hands has a hefty spellcasting penalty while transformed. Generally you'll be pre-buffing before blade hands so it's not too important then (and it's less of a problem than being berserk is!) but if you're relying on say Controlled Blink to get you out of a mess you might have to rely on consumables instead.
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Jan 27, 2017 17:46
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Does blade hands no longer block wands? I remember actually using lichform for melee sometimes to avoid that penalty on a Kiku DsTm.
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Jan 27, 2017 18:14
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I found that playing a vampire in Crypt was really good for immersion/role-playing purposes because I'd practically start salivating IRL as soon as I turned a corner and saw a necromancer or death knight or other enemy that actually had blood in its body.
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Jan 27, 2017 18:24
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That's true, but with the steep cost of unarmed combat I think it's probably better to just go for a few standard, low level utility spells that you'll likely be able to cast if necessary in spite of the penalty. Thinking about it, blade hands does make ranged combat very inconvenient, though, which is a big downside. No ranged weapons, no wands and no high level conjurations. But I rarely try for ranged options on transmuters anyway because you need so much XP just to get your melee and defenses up.Ferrinus posted:I found that playing a vampire in Crypt was really good for immersion/role-playing purposes because I'd practically start salivating IRL as soon as I turned a corner and saw a necromancer or death knight or other enemy that actually had blood in its body. That was basically my experience. I never dropped below full, but I used up all of my potions of blood. I've never had to deal with spider with a vampire and I almost never do extended anymore, but what I hate about them is that even if you go kiku to manage hunger, simply the process of managing it is incredibly tedious. I want rN for this branch, so lets wait for out satiation to go down enough, then whenever I've taken too much damage, corpse drop and drink a bunch of blood, heal up, then hammer 5 again. It's simply awful. Vp is a perfect example of why not every species should have a gimmick. The stats and aptitudes are quite interesting enough by themselves: It's a light armor race that can easily get loads of stealth, can handle melee nicely and is really, really good at hexes. It would be loads of fun to play if its gimmick weren't terrible. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jan 27, 2017 |
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Jan 27, 2017 18:28
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Blade hands is kind of boring unless you pretend you're a T-1000. Kind hard to keep up the illusion when the rest of you isn't liquid metal though. Turn blade hands into Liquid Metal Form please. Thanks.
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Jan 27, 2017 18:37
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Ice form is Solid Water phase, surely that's close enough
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Jan 27, 2017 19:23
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It would only be good enough if you temporarily turned into a water elemental after getting hit really hard.
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Jan 27, 2017 19:34
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Can you stab people with blade hands?
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Jan 27, 2017 22:52
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Uuugh, another promising character dead because I decided to try to take on an ugly thing. You'd think I'd have learned by now.
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Jan 27, 2017 23:03
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PMush Perfect posted:Uuugh, another promising character dead because I decided to try to take on an ugly thing. You'd think I'd have learned by now. I can't resist ugly things because I must eat all the mutagenic meats. I can't help myself. I had a Minotaur with great resists, innate blink, extra big horns and a bunch of other lovely things, and I am always striving to achieve genetic perfection.
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Jan 27, 2017 23:55
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Internet Kraken posted:Can you stab people with blade hands? Yes, but you don't get short-blade stabbing bonuses.
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Jan 28, 2017 00:49
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PleasingFungus posted:Yes, but you don't get short-blade stabbing bonuses. Oh come on, if cats can stab with their dinky little claws I should be able to skewer people with hands made out of knives.
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Jan 28, 2017 01:15
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Is there a quality of life thing where when you wield a two handed weapon it just asks you if you want to remove your shield and you say yes. Goddamn is this annoying to switch items around.
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Jan 28, 2017 01:35
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Kaedric posted:Is there a quality of life thing where when you wield a two handed weapon it just asks you if you want to remove your shield and you say yes. Goddamn is this annoying to switch items around. i tried to implement this once and it broke the game in like five different ways maybe someday i'll try again...
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Jan 28, 2017 01:43
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Vp is a perfect example of why not every species should have a gimmick. The stats and aptitudes are quite interesting enough by themselves: It's a light armor race that can easily get loads of stealth, can handle melee nicely and is really, really good at hexes. It would be loads of fun to play if its gimmick weren't terrible. I actually like the Vp gimmick. The only change I'd make to it would be to allow them to berserk, transform (whether into a bat or using transmutation magic), and mutate at all satiety levels.
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Jan 28, 2017 01:55
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PleasingFungus posted:i tried to implement this once and it broke the game in like five different ways Like with the recent temple bugfix: quote:Fix temple entrances vault placement (Spectrina, PleasingFungus)
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Jan 28, 2017 02:17
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Or the bug that doubled player melee damage that made it into a full-blown release version.
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Jan 28, 2017 02:17
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vOv posted:Or the bug that doubled player melee damage that made it into a full-blown release version. If that didn't convince people that damage needs to be much more transparent in crawl, nothing will.
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Jan 28, 2017 03:22
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LogicNinja posted:If that didn't convince people that damage needs to be much more transparent in crawl, nothing will. Yeah, I'm really surprised it didn't cause some transparency changes. Its just been the same old canard that transparency in damage numbers will damage the gameplay experience somehow.
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Jan 28, 2017 06:43
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Ferrinus posted:I actually like the Vp gimmick. The only change I'd make to it would be to allow them to berserk, transform (whether into a bat or using transmutation magic), and mutate at all satiety levels. Would it actually break Vp if they could still regen at bloodless? I mean, the only effect of that feature is to limit your god choice somewhat, and make some areas more annoying. What are the interesting effects of being unable to regen while bloodless?
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Jan 28, 2017 08:07
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I think I saw someone mention simplifying Vp in ##crawl-dev that suggested letting bloodless vampires heal. I really hope they do that. I agree there's no particular reason to not let them do so. My own suggestion would be to have only 3 states: alive, normal (no status indicator) and undead. Undead has slow regeneration but more resists and alive has fast regeneration but less. Normal is in between. E.g. rN+ all the time, rC+ and rPois at normal, undead resists and the big stealth bonus at undead. They already proposed making all three states have fast metabolism, which is good, but I think it would also be good to increase the satiation gained from drinking blood. That way you actually can easily shift between the states as you want, the way the species description implies, rather than either just ignoring them or having to put up with fiddly, annoying bullshit. Totally unrelated, but I did the desolation of salt yesterday. I've only heard a chorus of praise for it, but I'll add my voice to that as well. Really great flavor and some very interesting enemies. I don't know if this was intentional, but it had a really cool Dark Souls aesthetic that worked very well. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 08:22
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ThermosAquaticus posted:Would it actually break Vp if they could still regen at bloodless? I mean, the only effect of that feature is to limit your god choice somewhat, and make some areas more annoying. What are the interesting effects of being unable to regen while bloodless? Pretty sure it's just an artifact of the past when devs thought hunger was super important for some reason and the idea of a race that doesn't die if they spend an eternity deliberately trying their hardest to starve was a horribly overpowered thing that needed to be curtailed. Same reason mummies have a dozen ridiculous drawbacks. e: A vampire reform I liked the sound of was one where blood was gone and instead they drained satiation from killing any living or demonic enemies. I guess that didn't go anywhere. Darox fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 09:23
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I was just fighting a couple of centaurs in a corridor at low level and quaffed invisibility thinking it would let me kill them before they could kill me. Except that made the centaur in the back take out it's bow and kill both the centaur in front of it and me. Certainly the right choice on the AIs part, but quite counterintuitive for the player.
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Jan 28, 2017 14:35
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I'm having a very successful (for me) run right now and I was curious. Is there a limitation to how much regen you can have? I am playing a vinestalker, and I have an amulet of regeneration, artifact troll armor that has +regen on it in addition to the normal troll armor regen which puts me at 230 total regen (if I'm mathing the formula on the wiki right). I think this means that I still only regen 1 hp per turn though, right? I should also mention that I have a +8 vampiric triple sword for extra comedy 'regen'. EDIT: ahahah and I just picked up the regeneration mutation so now I have regen 3 Kaedric fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Jan 28, 2017 |
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Jan 28, 2017 18:10
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I don't think there's a cap. You can certainly get a lot more than that. There's a crazy unrand called the robe of vines that more or less breaks the game and gives you around 3 hp per turn by itself. Demonspawn have the powered by death mutation that also gives you insane regen. My dream character is a monstrous demonspawn with powered by death, spirit shield, augmentation and the robe of vines: extremely durable; incredible melee damage and spellpower; limitless MP.
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Jan 28, 2017 18:44
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Trunk actually shows how much Regen you have on your character sheet now, it's a cool and good thing
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Jan 28, 2017 19:00
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