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admiraldennis posted:People seem confused with their usage of inside-out. HTC Vive is inside-out in that the unit positions itself - the lighthouses are just dumb beacons. Rift is outside in, the cameras actually track the devices. Quest et al are inside-out with internal sensors. SCheeseman posted:Another artifact of incorrect IPD is additional distortion that happens when scanning a scene with your eyes, the further your eyes are from the center of the lens the more pronounced the distortion will be. The former can be corrected in software, the latter can't be, at least not with current gen HMDs and lenses. Goons - can't tell the difference between inside-out and outside-in lighthouse is def outside-in but know about eye-position dependent pupil swim.
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Mar 30, 2019 18:30
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Delta-Wye posted:Goons - can't tell the difference between inside-out and outside-in lighthouse is def outside-in but know about eye-position dependent pupil swim. How is lighthouse outside in? It's just LEDs and lasers, no data goes back to the computer from the lighthouse devices. It's the exact same as using cameras and external tracking patterns, or just building a model of the space off camera images. Both use sensors that pick up light, and use patterns to determine where the headset is located.
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Mar 30, 2019 18:52
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Cojawfee posted:How is lighthouse outside in? It's just LEDs and lasers, no data goes back to the computer from the lighthouse devices. It's the exact same as using cameras and external tracking patterns, or just building a model of the space off camera images. Both use sensors that pick up light, and use patterns to determine where the headset is located. The best way to really determine the classification of outside-in vs. inside-out is "Do I need to setup something external to my HMD in order to support tracking?" For both Rift Constellation and Vive Lighthouse, this is the case. Arguing over what direction the light/laser moves, whether to or from the headset, is silly and doesn't actually mean anything. What matters is if you need to purchase cameras or lighthouses and set them up externally in order to solve for the position of the device. WaterIsPoison fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 19:21
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Delta-Wye posted:Goons - can't tell the difference between inside-out and outside-in lighthouse is def outside-in but know about eye-position dependent pupil swim. Goons - can't look up the definition of inside-out tracking before posting their idiocy on the forums
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Mar 30, 2019 19:32
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WaterIsPoison posted:The best way to really determine the classification of outside-in vs. inside-out is "Do I need to setup something external to my HMD in order to support tracking?" For both Rift Constellation and Vive Lighthouse, this is the case. Arguing over what direction the light/laser moves, whether to or from the headset, is silly and doesn't actually mean anything. What matters is if you need to purchase cameras or lighthouses and set them up externally in order to solve for the position of the device. But words have meaning. You can't just redefine them because the mechanics of it is confusing for you. Lighthouses are just a fancy version of sticking tracking markers on your walls, there are still cameras INside the headset, tracking OUT.
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Mar 30, 2019 19:40
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WaterIsPoison posted:The best way to really determine the classification of outside-in vs. inside-out is "Do I need to setup something external to my HMD in order to support tracking?" For both Rift Constellation and Vive Lighthouse, this is the case. Arguing over what direction the light/laser moves, whether to or from the headset, is silly and doesn't actually mean anything. What matters is if you need to purchase cameras or lighthouses and set them up externally in order to solve for the position of the device. So are we just making up our own definitions for words now? I guess I can say that Constellation is inside out because light comes from inside the headset and goes out to the cameras. Inside out has a definition, and it's the one I gave in my last post. The headset uses a sensor or a camera and determines its own location. Outside in is an external device that determines where the headset is. The lighthouses do not in any way shape or form track the headset or the controllers, they only emit light in a predetermined pattern.
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Mar 30, 2019 19:44
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I propose a new term, "self-contained tracking", please use this instead of using "inside-out tracking" wrongly, tia
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Mar 30, 2019 19:44
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BMan posted:I propose a new term, "self-contained tracking", please use this instead of using "inside-out tracking" wrongly, tia Agreed. Or even better portable tracking (because that is the real appeal to Quest's style of inside out). Vive is defacto inside out tracking. As is Quest. Both are cool and good but Quest is way more portable.
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Mar 30, 2019 19:47
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Cojawfee posted:So are we just making up our own definitions for words now? I guess I can say that Constellation is inside out because light comes from inside the headset and goes out to the cameras. Inside out has a definition, and it's the one I gave in my last post. The headset uses a sensor or a camera and determines its own location. Outside in is an external device that determines where the headset is. The lighthouses do not in any way shape or form track the headset or the controllers, they only emit light in a predetermined pattern. How is a lighthouse not an external device that determines where the headset it? Just because it's paints light with time sychronization vs. measuring light with time sychronization feels like a silly argument. The Vive cannot actually determine the pose of itself without the lighthouses telling it when it fired the laser. Yes, one uses computer vision techniques while another just uses precise laser emissions, but it's the same math essentially. This is ignoring the fact that these semantic knife edge arguments ignore the fact that the HMD/Controller IMUs are used in conjunction with optical measurements in order to determine their actual position, so there will never be a clean "This HMD determines it's own location while this one does not" (Except for Quest/Focus  )Practically, what matters for users when it comes to understanding, the question is do I need to setup external devices or not? Will I lose tracking if I walk away or outside the FOV of those devices? If I block line of sight to the devices, will I lose tracking? WaterIsPoison fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 20:09
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To those saying Lighthouse was never called Inside Out Tracking, from the OP penned in 2016:quote:Lighthouse In the heyday of the Rift vs Vive wars here those terms were slung around with much fervor to prove whose nerd hat was best.
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Mar 30, 2019 20:15
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BMan posted:I propose a new term, "self-contained tracking", please use this instead of arguing for like 5 pages you loving gently caress fuckers
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Mar 30, 2019 20:16
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WaterIsPoison posted:Practically, what matters for users when it comes to understanding, the question is do I need to setup external devices or not? Will I lose tracking if I walk away or outside the FOV of those devices? If I block line of sight to the devices, will I lose tracking?
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Mar 30, 2019 20:18
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Quest tracking = good Everything else tracking = bad (because it's not tracking a Quest)
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Mar 30, 2019 20:24
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homeless snail posted:I don't think it's very useful to define technical terms from the point of view of consumer expectations. But also these are all issues that'd you have with a marker-based inside-out system, or are systems that use markers not inside out now? Marker based inside out (assuming you are talking about something like the Valve room) doesn't require electronic time synchronization with the features. Additionally, marker based inside out tracking systems can be turned into marker less inside out tracking systems with pure software changes (you just change your vision algorithm to look for different types features), assuming you don't do weird IR based fiducials or something. It's also a bit different in the sense that occlusions are determined from an egocentric perspective. In general, it's a silly argument, and yeah people should just be talking about "Basestation or Basestation-less" systems as it's a more meaningful line to draw.
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Mar 30, 2019 20:25
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Constellation requires synchronization, lighthouse does not. Lighthouse flashes the LEDs to signify that a laser sweep will happen. There is no communication between the base stations and the computer or headset, whereas there is with rift. Lighthouse is the same conceptually as taping tracking targets to the walls or just finding unique things in the room to track.
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Mar 30, 2019 20:35
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That is literally called a sync pulse, it synchronizes the sensors to the timing of the lighthouse. They're generously "active markers" It's conceptually similar to start bits in serial communication. It's a signal that says "hey I'm about to send some poo poo, start your clock" homeless snail fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 20:39
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Cojawfee posted:Constellation requires synchronization, lighthouse does not. Lighthouse flashes the LEDs to signify that a laser sweep will happen. There is no communication between the base stations and the computer or headset, whereas there is with rift. Lighthouse is the same conceptually as taping tracking targets to the walls or just finding unique things in the room to track. The lighthouses at least with V1 do need to synch with each other. They usually do it wirelessly, but if they can't for some reason (like if they don't have line of sight to each other) you can use a cable. I'm not sure exactly the technical reason why they need to. This is a uselessly pedantic point but since that's all this conversation is I want to score points by doing it myself
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Mar 30, 2019 20:39
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Cojawfee posted:Constellation requires synchronization, lighthouse does not. Lighthouse flashes the LEDs to signify that a laser sweep will happen. There is no communication between the base stations and the computer or headset, whereas there is with rift. Lighthouse is the same conceptually as taping tracking targets to the walls or just finding unique things in the room to track. I thought the base starting had to have line of sight to each other? Wouldn't that imply that they talk to each other?
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Mar 30, 2019 20:39
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Skyarb posted:I thought the base starting had to have line of sight to each other? Wouldn't that imply that they talk to each other? They are flickering at opposite frequencies so the headset can tell them apart, they talk to each other to keep their timing right
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Mar 30, 2019 20:44
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They synchronize with each other to make sure they don't overlap, but there's no communication with the PC or headset aside from Bluetooth to turn them on and off.
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Mar 30, 2019 22:04
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regardless of if they communicate with anything or not, the Rift and Vive sensors share one thing in common: they both suck rear end and will keep VR relegated to expensive peripherals for super-nerds
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Mar 30, 2019 22:21
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Good, because I'm a super nerd
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Mar 30, 2019 22:22
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Anyone else getting tons of lag and hitreg problems with Pavlov recently? It's been so bad lately I get killed by players like a second after I just killed them. It is sort of fun and comical but I'm a bit confused EDIT: I mean my ping is fine it's 40-50 odd. That's fine right? Surprise Giraffe fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 23:22
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Sorry my internet sucks and I live far away 
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Mar 30, 2019 23:25
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Hadlock posted:If you have narrow set eyes, and you look at a wide set VR headset, your eyes aren't just looking straight ahead, you're forcing your eyes to actually look apart from each other, which is super unnatural, is going to cause literal physical eye strain, plus mental uneasiness as you're not at all wired to do that This 100% describes my experience with the Monoculous. I can't use it more than about 30 minutes before I start getting a headache from it. I have a narrow IPD and I doubt the Rift S is gonna work for me now.
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Mar 31, 2019 00:07
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Orbusvr Beta report It appears they went to a zone-based approach rather than the open world they had last time, but it looks way better and runs smoother.  The new art style makes the NPCs far more aesthetically pleasing.  Players now have necks connecting their heads to their torsos, but no arms or legs. But I don't mind that in my online VR games.  There is now an auction house to use in addition to the weird player market system that involved bidding on the forums for a stall slot. You also have an auction house NPC in your player home as well. I forgot to get a lot of pictures of the player home but it is huge now, has a trophy room, library, etc.  The one pic of the player home I took was of the terrarium, with my little dragon inside of it. It has slots for two which is a shame. I would love to just fill it up with the little guys. And that is all the screenshots worth looking at that I took. Combat appears to be basically the same though they have new classes with new mechanics. They are less straightforward than the original ones, so be sure to open your journal and go to their mechanic's page. I went multiple fights without realizing my paladin is supposed to hold his hammer in the air so it gets struck by godly lighting so I can go full Thor on the monsters. Most of your damage comes from this so not realizing that made combat a slog till I finally read it. That said it is kind of great that I can throw the hammer and will it back to my hands, too bad it doesn't do any damage on the way back. Monsters do look a lot better this time around though. Now for the odd changes. The original OrbusVR used a standard MMO quest structure with chains of missions leading you through a story. Now you get repeatable missions from various NPCs to build reputation with them till they decide to offer you the story quests. This feels less straight forwards and more confusing. but I guess having lots of repeatable content to grind out with is probably needed. Not sure if beta or if I am missing something but I have not been gaining any xp, but I am using my live character on the server so I might try making an alt to see if that fixes it.
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Mar 31, 2019 00:25
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that's just a Mii
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Mar 31, 2019 01:20
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I always hate it when developers just give up and take the arms and legs away altogether. If we can't do horrible things with our character's limbs, then what are we even doing in VR? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBaZjQNCZ4Y&t=95s
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Mar 31, 2019 01:56
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Xakura posted:But words have meaning. You can't just redefine them because the mechanics of it is confusing for you. Language is a living document and the definitions of words change all the time. "Inside-out tracking" was adopted for WMR because it's using the headset on its own to perceive its playspace without anything used as a reference point. Vive got co-opted to be covered by outside-in tracking because by the inverse definition it's using a pair of external sensors to generate its playspace. Doesn't matter which way the light is travelling.
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Mar 31, 2019 02:04
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BMan posted:I propose a new term, "self-contained tracking", please use this instead of using "inside-out tracking" wrongly, tia This is the right answer. Lighthouse style beacons, fiducial markers, and self-contained are all different varieties of inside-out. Self-contained is a specific subset of inside-out.
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Mar 31, 2019 03:35
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I finally tried the Climbey demo. It seemed very badly broken? The tutorial got stuck on all three attempts insisting that I close the menu and ignoring when I did so, the trampolines didn't bounce and standing on descending platforms would drag me downwards off walls I was hanging onto. I have to assume the demo must be based off an old unmaintained codebase, but I'm really not encouraged to buy the full thing to find out. The lesson here is never make demos. I also hated all their movement options, but I can at least believe that they were working as intended. wolrah posted:This is the right answer. Lighthouse style beacons, fiducial markers, and self-contained are all different varieties of inside-out. Self-contained is a specific subset of inside-out. "Markerless tracking" works too, and is a term people already use in this context. Vive, Rift, PSVR and the classic Valve VR room are all based on tracking placed markers one way or another.
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Mar 31, 2019 03:49
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Why not just call vives tracking "lighthouse tracking" since there are no other vendors doing it that way
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Mar 31, 2019 03:49
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Managed to get a brand new Vive Pro through work and have been really briefly playing around with it. Is it just me or are the lighthouse v2 motors obnoxiously noisy? When on they both emit and extremely high pitched whine - not unlike the high frequency noises crtv monitors used to make that only under 20s could hear... Only I'm well past hearing those at 33 - and these are deafening in a otherwise quiet room. It's rather spoiled any dev work I want to do in my study since it's hard to concentrate with them on.
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Mar 31, 2019 04:10
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Isometric Bacon posted:Managed to get a brand new Vive Pro through work and have been really briefly playing around with it. Bad lighthouses? I've had them make noise on initial spin up but never consistent like that and not be damaged or dying.
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Mar 31, 2019 04:20
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IDK 2.0s, but OG lighthouses will make that noise if they aren't screwed in all the way or sometimes the power cable vibrates noticeably until you adjust it
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Mar 31, 2019 04:21
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Isometric Bacon posted:Managed to get a brand new Vive Pro through work and have been really briefly playing around with it. Don’t know anything about lighthouses but I can still definitely hear CRTs at age 40.
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Mar 31, 2019 05:45
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Isometric Bacon posted:Managed to get a brand new Vive Pro through work and have been really briefly playing around with it. My v1 lighthouses have always sounded like this
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Mar 31, 2019 05:50
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Sorry! I was out enjoying the nice weather today and let a whole page of nonsense fester. Both Constellation and Lighthouse are basically measuring angles between known immobile points in space (tracking cameras and base stations) and points along a rigid object that is under motion, and then fitting a model of that object to the now known angles relative to the immobile points in space. Each pixel on a Oculus Rift tracking camera represents an angle measurement directly from the sensors POV, Lighthouse just uses some clever techniques to convert time measurements into angle measurements. Constellation can ID which tracking LED is lighting up a particular pixel, just like how Lighthouse knows when the laser curtain sweeps over a particular sensor and then converts that to an angle. Ya'll are getting confused by what's a sensor and whats an emitter, but what really matters is the math. Here are outside in systems, with the rays drawn centered on the trackers representing the measured angles:   Here is some Quest marketing material talking about Insight. Notice how the rays originate in the other direction.  WaterIsPoison is right, Constellation and Lighthouse are the same math essentially, and are both outside in. WMR-based headsets, Quest, and Rift S are inside out. Think of it in terms of effects like occlusion - the collection of possible rays forms a cone, and objects inside the cone will cast a 'shadow' that prevents tracking. In an outside-in system, the shadow from the object is on the side of the user (opposite of the base station or rift tracker), in an inside-out system it will be on the far side of the object from the user. Delta-Wye fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 06:29
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Delta-Wye posted:Sorry! I was out enjoying the nice weather today and let a whole page of nonsense fester. Both Constellation and Lighthouse are basically measuring angles between known immobile points in space (tracking cameras and base stations) and points along a rigid object that is under motion, and then fitting a model of that object to the now known angles relative to the immobile points in space. Each pixel on a Oculus Rift tracking camera represents an angle measurement directly from the sensors POV, Lighthouse just uses some clever techniques to convert time measurements into angle measurements. Constellation can ID which tracking LED is lighting up a particular pixel, just like how Lighthouse knows when the laser curtain sweeps over a particular sensor and then converts that to an angle. Naw
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Mar 31, 2019 06:35
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Quest is outside in because photons from the light bulb in your room bounce off the walls and are picked up by the headset. All the rays originate from the lightbulb which is an external device. I can make up wacky rules all day, just like you.
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Mar 31, 2019 07:02
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