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Honestly, the Tenzen argument is a perfect example of why I hate the whole 'Azem shards' thing. Every attempt to say we're a reincarnation of Tenzen only serves to make all involved character's stories more needlessly complex and less deep and interesting. Suddenly we're just a hero because that's what we were always going to be in every lifetime, Tenzen's sacrifice to make the seal means nothing because his soul somehow wasn't part of it, and the Auspices seeing Tenzen in us isn't a combination of delusion and similar energies from having similar journeys but rather them literally being right and yet not making a big deal out of it in the long term because...? Reasons? In fact, I would go so far as to say that the story genuinely did not benefit from Ardbert being literally spiritually part of us through Azem. He's the character hurt the least by these sorts of connections, in part because the hook of him and his friends were always tied to us metatextually as 'look, it's the create-a-character standins from the trailer', but I think the Azem reveal adds nothing to his story in Shadowbringers that couldn't have been done some other way. Or hell, in the same way but just not including that part, because I don't think anyone had any complaints about him back in 5.0 when Azem was an unknown and nameless abstract and he was mostly unconnected.
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Apr 26, 2023 03:54
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hopeandjoy posted:This. This is where my money is, because a) Lord_Magmar posted:the big original reveal with Golbez is that he's the protagonists brother fallen to villainy. They haven't really done that much with the FFXIV one so I'm assuming they'll do a similar reveal for the old FFIV fans to clap because reference. b) it makes Golbez's dominion over the Thirteenth, born of a desire to free its denizens from their immortality, parallel with Vrtra's guardianship over the people of Thavnair, which gives a more heart-wrenchingly personal twist to that lovely antagonist conflict that FFXIV does so well: understandable motivations that are irreconcilably at odds with the wellbeing of the people you care about, so you have to take them down, and c) Golbez' singular eye being Azdaja's remaining eye, used to pilot a simulacrum like Vrtra pilots the Varshahn body, would be a straight-up fun reveal. RE: shard talk, I'm not wild about the prospect of Zero being an Azem shard, simply because I think it'd be more fun for her to be a Zenos shard if she's anybody's at all. On the other hand, it would be extremely cool if we were to make a temporary voidsent contract with her, that ends up being extremely powerful because of some kind of soul-shard resonance, in a moment of crisis a la the Ardbert axe moment.
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Apr 26, 2023 04:01
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I mean keep in mind we've just been told Golbez's desire to free the people of the Thirteenth isn't based on what's best for them at all and is much more personal.
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Apr 26, 2023 04:11
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Cleretic posted:Honestly, the Tenzen argument is a perfect example of why I hate the whole 'Azem shards' thing. Every attempt to say we're a reincarnation of Tenzen only serves to make all involved character's stories more needlessly complex and less deep and interesting. Suddenly we're just a hero because that's what we were always going to be in every lifetime, Tenzen's sacrifice to make the seal means nothing because his soul somehow wasn't part of it, and the Auspices seeing Tenzen in us isn't a combination of delusion and similar energies from having similar journeys but rather them literally being right and yet not making a big deal out of it in the long term because...? Reasons? I mean, the point I'm making with the Golbez thing is that it would be proof enough that no, just being a reincarnation of Azem doesn't make us a hero, what we do makes us a hero, the Azem stuff is just some general echoing/repeating (hah) personality traits/details. A penchant towards self-sacrifice, adventuring and inspiring others that we already see manifest in different ways between Ardbert, ourselves, and potentially Tenzen (if he is a reincarnation, and the story hasn't dropped that plot point, it comes up in the new quest with the Four Lords for Tataru, which is why it's on my mind). Also, 5.0 directly has us being compared with the friend that Hyth (and thus Hades) remembers and Hades explicitly calls us hero. Azem was abstract, but us and Ardbert both being reincarnations was still pretty meaningful because it relates to Hades motivation and interactions with us. I don't see how Ardbert's thing in Shadowbringers would work without knowing who we're both a reincarnation of, because that's tied into what Emet-Selch/Hades is doing in that expansion anyway. We'd always have been someone important to Hades in the past after all. Most of what we know of Azem comes from one side story, and the implications of traits that Hades and Hythlodaeus recognise in us, they might not even be the traits we share with Ardbert, because that's not necessarily the point. That we are a hero who reincarnated from a hero doesn't mean we are only a hero because we are a reincarnation of a hero. Oh, also Elpis implying that a) we look physically and aesthetically like Azem no matter what race or gender we are and b) Azem is known enough and has a personality that lets us use "We're a familiar of Azem" as an excuse that basically everyone accepts. Heroism is the actions you take, not a personality trait. If anything the personality trait appears to be horrible disruptive gremlin who sticks their nose in everything they can. Ardbert and our connection is kind of his plot in Shadowbringers in general, the mystery of why he's awake now that we're here, why we're connected on some spiritual level, tied into the reveals of the metaphysics of the setting around the sundered and unsundered. I hadn't considered the secretly Azdaja thing, it could be interesting, but he tortures Azdaja when nobody is looking, so I suspect not. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 04:18
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Blockhouse posted:I mean keep in mind we've just been told Golbez's desire to free the people of the Thirteenth isn't based on what's best for them at all and is much more personal. Oh yeah, huh, I focused too much on Rubicante's explanation of Golbez's motivations and forgot about the cryptic closing line for 6.3.  Desires Untold posted:Rubicante: And perhaps your own will resonate with his...and draw forth that singular jewel which abides deep within his heart. Gods Revel, Lands Tremble posted:Golbez: At long, long last...the end draws nigh. Sounds like there's some kind of spiritual succession to the Endsinger going on here, where "the end to life on the star" and "free us from our purgatory" are the same goal (unbeknownst to Rubicante). Probably not coincidental, though I'm not sure how they'll handle that without it feeling like a rehash of EW's main themes. I'm also curious as to how this stated desire for the death of life on Etheirys(?) meshes with whatever deep unrealized desire Golbez has. Before I hit that last line from Golbez, I had supposed it was a wish to see the Source for some reason--to meet loved ones again, to experience the beauty of a world that's not despoiled like the Thirteenth, etc.
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Apr 26, 2023 04:32
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Bloody Emissary posted:I'm also curious as to how this stated desire for the death of life on Etheirys(?) meshes with whatever deep unrealized desire Golbez has. Before I hit that last line from Golbez, I had supposed it was a wish to see the Source for some reason--to meet loved ones again, to experience the beauty of a world that's not despoiled like the Thirteenth, etc. Considering he's looking at the Thirteenth, I think the desire is for the death of the Voidsent lives. "That star" being the thirteenth shard, not Etheirys.
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Apr 26, 2023 04:35
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First of all: Golbez 'torturing Azdaja when nobody's looking' isn't necessarily evidence against them being the same, because who among us doesn't basically do the same thing? But I don't think this can possibly be true, because it seems like Golbez is tied to the Thirteenth's history in a way that suggests he was around for the fall and has some level of ownership of the cause and shared history. Like, Golbez explains the 'invade the Source' plan using the Ascians as a common touchstone, and referring to the 'whispers' from the Source as their main evidence of what they said being right. That implies that everyone in that scene knew who the Ascians were from the same source, likely the Contramemoria (Azdaja probably knew who they were because I think her disappearance was post-Bahamut-summoning, but that is a very different context), but also that their knowledge of the Source is limited; that rules out Azdaja, since she ABSOUTELY knows the Source better than that and has little reason to lie about it. My bet on Golbez is still 'Eidolon from the Contramemoria that's trying to solve their own situation with being in an undying hell in a different way to everyone else', which somehow ties to the lives of the Thirteenth as a whole. I have a theory on that (basically, 'primal trying to make sure nobody still alive believes in them so they can finally be forgotten and fade'), but I'm not confident on that part on the level I am that he's an Eidolon. Because c'mon, they're a huge part of this setting-defining war and yet we've seen none of them! They've gotta throw in at least one! Lord_Magmar posted:Ardbert and our connection is kind of his plot in Shadowbringers in general, the mystery of why he's awake now that we're here, why we're connected on some spiritual level, tied into the reveals of the metaphysics of the setting around the sundered and unsundered. See, I think we disagree what Ardbert's Shadowbringers story even was. I think Ardbert was basically a 'spirit with unfinished business'-style ghost (which we've seen in a few other parts of the game), and his journey was essentially coming to terms with his own death; he's a hero that hosed up, doomed his world and died, and he wasn't really ready to leave until he found a way to put that right, which turned out to be by finding a way to help us un-gently caress the First. We only have to matter there by being the one that picks up the baton and keeps running after he fails, adding an overarching 'literally the same spirit' logic just provides a more functional 'how' to it that doesn't necessarily have to be what it ended up being. I'm only willing to slap down my full 'Azem wasn't necessary' hot take once Pandaemonium wraps up and they remain not-a-factor, though; it's entirely possible that Azem suddenly ends up being crucially vital to the story there, even if that seems unlikely.
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Apr 26, 2023 04:59
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I mean, the simple answer to that is Ardbert didn't gently caress up. They did everything right and it still went wrong, they solved the Shadowbringer Ascian Plot and instead of killing their friend chose to spare her and hunt down the Ascians, they BEAT Mitron and Lohgrif and that led to the Flood of Light. That isn't failing, that's having a situation where even doing all the right things hosed them over. Were they supposed to not stop the Ascians? Then he and all his friends agreed to sacrifice themselves to stop the flood of light, only for his own sacrifice to never come, and instead he's left alone to watch as even that act of heroism wasn't enough. Ardbert didn't gently caress up, he did everything right and circumstances beyond his control or knowledge screwed him over hard enough that he decided heroism wasn't worth the loss you suffer. He doesn't have to accept his death, he already had, twice over (he and his friends died to come to the Source, the Blood on his Axe is from killing his friends to do so since it was agreed to be the quickest method, and again when they agree to sacrifice their all to stop the flood of light), he had to reawaken his heroism and accept that he had purpose still. As far as Panda, Azem probably won't show up because the devs are aware that showing an actual Azem would be a bit frustrating for everyone's headcanons, even if they're willing to give Azem and the Warrior of Light personality traits. Different ones even considering the options you get are at odds at times with Azem's stated character. But Themis is explicitly there because Azem told him to go and meet his guiding star. Also us being Azem reincarnated has direct effects on Hades actions and character and choices in both Shadowbringers and Endwalker. The story as presented does not work without Azem Reincarnation, although yes, Ardbert being also Azem Reincarnation isn't wholly necessary for the most important parts of that situation (Hades reactions). Also again, Hermes/Fandaniel/Amon is proof enough that reincarnation isn't meant to be literally you are the same person every time. He straight up talks about all the myriad lives he remembered as he awakened to Hermes/Fandaniel's Ancient Memories via soul stuff, and that none of them found the answer Hermes was looking for even though each searched in their own way. The carry over is merely that hunger for answers, for understanding and knowledge. Not the actions or character they grow into. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 05:15
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I don't know whether the WoL is a reincarnation of Tenzen or not, but the Auspices seem to think that you are, and it comforts them to see that you're a good person who does heroic things and helps others. They're old and wise enough to know how reincarnation works so they don't expect you to be the exact same person as their friend. They're just happy his legacy is safe for another generation. Minfilia and Ryne are both shards of the same sundered soul, and the reason Minfilia chose not to merge herself into Ryne is because she knew her denser, much-rejoined Source soul would overpower the thinner soul of someone from the First and become the dominant personality. We see exactly that happen after Adbert joins with you, there's still an echo of Ardbert in you but everything unique about him is gone, subsumed.
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Apr 26, 2023 05:21
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Magic is really weird in FFXIV since while Aetherology explains a lot, there's still weird poo poo like the Kami and the Auspices roaming around.
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Apr 26, 2023 05:26
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Kazy posted:Magic is really weird in FFXIV since while Aetherology explains a lot, there's still weird poo poo like the Kami and the Auspices roaming around. I would assume Aetheorology isn't accounting for Dynamis, which is where the weird stuff comes from. The Four Lords descriptions of Aramitama as energy born of their emotions is textbook Dynamis.
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Apr 26, 2023 05:29
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Lord_Magmar posted:I mean, the simple answer to that is Ardbert didn't gently caress up. They did everything right and it still went wrong, they solved the Shadowbringer Ascian Plot and instead of killing their friend chose to spare her and hunt down the Ascians, they BEAT Mitron and Lohgrif and that led to the Flood of Light. That isn't failing, that's having a situation where even doing all the right things hosed them over. Were they supposed to not stop the Ascians? Then he and all his friends agreed to sacrifice themselves to stop the flood of light, only for his own sacrifice to never come, and instead he's left alone to watch as even that act of heroism wasn't enough. You realize none of that changes any part of what I was seeing his journey as, right? No matter what kind of failure or mishap Ardbert sees the Flood of Light as, he still sees it as his responsibility, as a wrong he has to, somehow, make right; that's why he and his friends turned up on the Source to begin with, and one that he's still grappling with in death a hundred years later. I describe Ardbert's journey as 'oh god I hosed up' because I think it's funny to describe it as that, and it does generally encapsulate the situation; he can't really fathom the scope or specifics of what happened, all he really knows is 'I did my best and my best was somehow the worst, what the gently caress, I gotta fix this'. You ever do content blind, and do something you think is the right move only to somehow cause a team wipe? That's Ardbert, only the teamwipe was planet-wide. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 05:46
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My problem is more or less I don't think there was anything he could have done better, except not kill Mitron/Lohgrif with a Blade of Light????? And we don't even know the details of their fight with Mitron and Lohgrif beyond it ending with Mitron becoming Eden and Lohgrif dying because he threw her out of their fusion at the time to save her. Basically I think Ardbert is blaming himself for something that he legitimately did not do wrong and had no better way to handle. So to describe it as him loving up (even as he himself does so) is blaming the wrong person. Which I guess is more philosphical. Ardbert did everything right and succeeded at every turn, even beyond the script the Ascians wrote for him that would fulfill their plans. So is it really a failure of his that in succeeding so hard the Ascians plans backfire disastrously? If I do something I think is right and cause a teamwipe I failed to do the right thing, but that isn't like, a narrative thing. I made a mistake, and there isa right thing to do. I don't think Ardbert had any alternative "right" thing to do. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 05:58
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Also, like, Ardbert explicitly says that he and his friends did everything right and this still happened, as a major emotional and character beat? Blatantly in the text? Ardbert's fundamental character beat is the concept that his and his friends' fate is unjust -- that they always did the right thing, acted selflessly, and even in their one moment of arguable selfishness (sparing the Shadowkeeper) managed to subvert the Ascians' plans, just in a way that made things more hosed up and complicated -- and that he would be completely justified if he'd descended into despair, but he finds his way through because he's a hero. If he were a fuckup, none of the Ascians' plans for the First would have played out at all!
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Apr 26, 2023 06:17
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This is all rather beside the point that I was making in the first place, which is that I saw Ardbert's Shadowbringers journey as a ghost with unfinished business relating to seeing the Flood as a wrong that he has to right. And that the whole 'Azem' thing is entirely ancillary to it and, for the purposes of Ardbert's story, exists merely as a mechanical way for Ardbert to right that wrong given his situation. Ardbert's story would have functioned just as well if that part had been substituted for something else. Ardbert's story isn't worsened by it in the way I think other characters' stories would be by a similar twist, but that's more because it cemented in-story the metatextual connection to us he already had. It neither adds nor takes from his story.
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Apr 26, 2023 06:28
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Cleretic posted:This is all rather beside the point that I was making in the first place, which is that I saw Ardbert's Shadowbringers journey as a ghost with unfinished business relating to seeing the Flood as a wrong that he has to right. And that the whole 'Azem' thing is entirely ancillary to it and, for the purposes of Ardbert's story, exists merely as a mechanical way for Ardbert to right that wrong given his situation. Ardbert's story would have functioned just as well if that part had been substituted for something else. This is fair, and I do think Ardbert is burdened by the Flood stuff, but I don't think it's in the way you do. He's upset that he wasn't allowed to sacrifice himself with his friends and was instead left to misery and solitude for 100 years, his heroic spirit sapped away by the sheer unfairness, he only has unfinished business because he wasn't allowed to give up his soul like his friends, not because of any particular action on his behalf. So it's a story of struggling against an unjust situation, not his own failure (although he mixes in his own self-doubt and stuff). Which doesn't really make the Azem stuff important either, but it is a detail that explains why we make a difference to his situation. Since if he was just a normal ghost his solitude would feel worse I think? It gives a reason for nobody but us to see him in 100 years, rather than it just being arbitrary that this situation occurs.
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Apr 26, 2023 06:49
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Cleretic posted:This is all rather beside the point that I was making in the first place, which is that I saw Ardbert's Shadowbringers journey as a ghost with unfinished business relating to seeing the Flood as a wrong that he has to right. And that the whole 'Azem' thing is entirely ancillary to it and, for the purposes of Ardbert's story, exists merely as a mechanical way for Ardbert to right that wrong given his situation. Ardbert's story would have functioned just as well if that part had been substituted for something else. Except for the part where he got back to the First and Minfilia starts stopping the flood, and all his friends give up their lives, and Ardbert prepares to do exactly the same thing, and Minfilia stops him and says nope, you still have something to do. Ardbert did not have unfinished business, he was ready to die. It was Minfilia/Hydaelyn who put her hands on the scales of the plot and forced Ardbert to carry on, and retrospectively we can deduce that it's because we told Venat that we rejoined with Ardbert to stop Hades.
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Apr 26, 2023 14:41
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sweet geek swag posted:Except for the part where he got back to the First and Minfilia starts stopping the flood, and all his friends give up their lives, and Ardbert prepares to do exactly the same thing, and Minfilia stops him and says nope, you still have something to do. Ardbert did not have unfinished business, he was ready to die. It was Minfilia/Hydaelyn who put her hands on the scales of the plot and forced Ardbert to carry on, and retrospectively we can deduce that it's because we told Venat that we rejoined with Ardbert to stop Hades. And even without this retroactive logic, it's possible that Venat/Hydaelyn knows Ardbert is a shard of Azem and could be needed in the future against Hades. The retroactive justification changes it a bit, but even without it you can see a logic as to why to stop Ardbert from sacrificing himself (especially when it's evidently not necessary, they stopped the flood without him and he might not have made any difference there at all anyway).
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Apr 26, 2023 14:51
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Is Cleretic having wrong FFXIV opinions again?
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Apr 26, 2023 16:49
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Cleretic is making perfectly fine posts. There's no need for ardbert to have been a reincarnated shard of the same person we were part of. everything it links to concretely is just Fantasy Technobabble you could easily write another way (maybe our experiences on the source somehow linked our souls together, maybe hydaelyn did something to him to make it possible to see him, maybe it's that warrior of light bond, maybe hydaelyn Just Knew not to let him add his aether), and fundamentally he really is basically just a ghost with unfinished business. Plus, Ardbert is already strongly paralleled to you in the warriors of darkness final confrontation, and he's literally Meteor Survivor Trailer Midlander. making him also literally a reincarnated part of you is sort of putting a hat on a hat. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Azem stuff, but I don't know that it really adds all that much either. Ardbert is already another warrior of light whose journey contrasts with ours, we're already a heroic figure who can remind emet-selch of some old friend, we can carry forward the legacy of the ancients without being literally Azem reincarnated. It's not bad, but it literalizes a bunch of stuff that didn't really need to be literalized.
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Apr 26, 2023 17:06
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Nah, the Ardbert thing is good and it's a trick they get to pull exactly once so I'm glad they nailed it
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Apr 26, 2023 17:08
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At minimum the Emet-Selch stuff would not work that way. He doesn't care about heroes in the general sense, if being heroic was enough to remind him of a friend(and explicitly try to recruit us to his cause) then he wouldn't have been wading through his hell for thousands of years. Of all the bits and pieces of Azem's situation, Hades is the one that absolutely 100% requires Azem to work as written, and removing Azem explicitly changes that story in a big way. This isn't to say it would be good or bad, but Hades situation specifically works because he recognises us as a specific Ancient he has a strong emotional bond with. Remove that and his motivation and character in Shadowbringers changes entirely. Although that ancient having a role in the leadership of Amaurot isn't wholly necessary. I think cutting out the "Yours is the fourteenth seat" bit from before the Elidibus trial would remove one of the hypest moments in the story? Our charge as Shepard to the Stars in the Dark is also tied into that being part of the Legacy of a specific person we are being asked to uphold. You don't have to agree to do so, but that's not just some random Ancient. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 17:15
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i mean his story really doesn't rely on it to work. like, 1) everything about emet-selch that you are describing was written at a time when they already knew that they were going to make the WoL azem reincarnated. it doesn't make any sense to be like "well it has to have been this way because emet-selch was already this way" because all that stuff was plotted at roughly the same time, and you are talking about like a handful of specific lines of dialogue. and 2) there's lots and lots of stories written where "wow, i am somehow struck in a very specific way by this one particular person, who i have never met before, because they remind me of someone else" is a key point, and no one needs to be literally reincarnated for that to work. emet also spends lots of that time explicitly asleep and we're also textually the most successful hero yet, so i don't think it would be a very hard piece of writing to justify. i don't think the shepherd to the stars thing wasn't hype or anything. but you could even have had emet leave it for us as a sign of respect, had the hype moment of inheriting the seat of azem, and left open some degree of ambiguity as to whether the WoL was actually literally emet's azem reincarnated. i don't think it's a particularly load-bearing bit of lore and it would've been easy to slip it out or leave it more ambiguous; just make emet and hyth be like "whoa, your soul looks just like...but that doesn't make any sense, don't worry about it", since the only way we know we're a reincarnation is the soulsight that they have, which appears to have been written in for the exact purpose of telling us we're specifically a reincarnation. Valentin fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 17:24
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Okay but why not write it in, if it doesn't add much it also doesn't take away anything (and I'd argue it adds stuff, but it is too late for me to reasonably articulate my thoughts anymore). If you don't like the plot point I get it, but a lot of people (including me) clearly do, so it can't be meaningless since all art and consumption of art is subjective (unless you are ignoring parts of the text to make that subjective statement). Both tbe situation with Elidibus ans Emet-Selch yes, are written with that reveal in mind. They're also some of the best writing in this game and that reveal is part of that writing. I don't think changing it or making it ambiguous would improve the best writing in the game. It might even weaken it to have it be more ambiguous. Since the story has also since put effort into giving Azem a bit more character.
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Apr 26, 2023 17:33
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Cleretic posted:Ardbert's story isn't worsened by it in the way I think other characters' stories would be by a similar twist, but that's more because it cemented in-story the metatextual connection to us he already had. It neither adds nor takes from his story. I think the way I'd put it is that the Azem thing (which wasn't an Azem thing when it happened [edit: well, it was an Azem thing but not a "your soul was a super special position in running Amaurot" thing, we still knew we in some way echoed Hades's old friend]) is part of Ardbert's journey so taking advantage of that feels fine, but if they were to make the same thing official with Tenzen it would be after his journey and that feels like it cheapens it. Tenzen's journey as an echo (not Echo) of yours is neat, "there will always be a Warrior of Light" sort of thing. But if they went and made the mechanics of why official it gets into the whole predestination thing that's already an issue. We've had arguments here about whether WoL is doing their thing *because* they're Azem, and separating the soul-source from the person, and it would be that same argument all over again. WoL is not Azem is not Ardbert is not Tenzen. The shared... call it a power source... can allow for some exceptional things, but it's the people choosing them. Even though our influence comes from a particular unnamed person, Azem is actually an administrative position and I think it helps to remember that. Bruceski fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 17:58
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Valentin posted:There's no need for ardbert to have been a reincarnated shard of the same person we were part of. well it is pretty important to the plot of Shadowbringers a calamity + rejoining actually occurs, it's just contained to you plus Emet Selch would have just killed you on sight if he didn't look at you and see his dead bestie
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Apr 26, 2023 18:13
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Lord_Magmar posted:I would assume Aetheorology isn't accounting for Dynamis, which is where the weird stuff comes from. The Four Lords descriptions of Aramitama as energy born of their emotions is textbook Dynamis. I would just assume that Sharlayan are scientists with biases, and their big biases are culturally appropriate for the rough equivalent they appear to fill in FF14's world of being sort of vaguely Victorian Britain with its gospel of reason. It's actually refreshing that the game doesn't make them right about everything - they are quite frequently spectacularly wrong, such as with the exact mechanisms of reincarnation, because they want hard systemic rules (that reaffirm their bias for a reasonable universe of impersonal laws) over what is a fundamentally squishier process. As far as the Azem thing goes, my opinion on How Much is a Reincarnation The Same Person Debate is well known, but I think that Shadowbringers at least demands the interpersonal ties to undermine the tired old "I am putting mortaldom on trial!" beats and make it clear that Hades' ultimate motivations are interpersonal and emotional, not higher abstract philosophy. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 18:18
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Jetrauben posted:I would just assume that Sharlayan are scientists with biases, and their big biases are culturally appropriate for the rough equivalent they appear to fill in FF14's world of being sort of vaguely Victorian Britain with its gospel of reason. It's actually refreshing that the game doesn't make them right about everything. One of their biases/failings is that they don't know Dynamis exists. Yes.
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Apr 26, 2023 18:21
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Lord_Magmar posted:One of their biases/failings is that they don't know Dynamis exists. Yes. One of, but even aether doesn't entirely seem to sync up. I do appreciate G'raha's "wait, the Twelve are real?" Honestly I have just never really understood the "but being Azem ruined my headcanon of being a self-made hero!" objection. I just go "...yes? self-made heroes are boring? this game is deeply invested in a discussion of legacy and how the past, both personal and cultural, shapes one's future?" I don't think being a random murderhobo enriches the story. Maybe it'd be different if I was deep into RP circles? That said, I do think Tenzen shouldn't be an Azem Shard. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 18:22
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Wait, since when is Tenzen a direct reincarnation/shard of Azem? I might be forgetting it but I thought it was just that Tenzen was a WoL (which btw doesn't mean an Azem shard, unless you're saying Lamitt and cia were too) who was also a swel hero and that's why the Four Lords were reminded of him. And Ardbert being an Azem shard isn't meant to be some important part of his character development, it's part of the plot. And I feel people are constantly acting like being shards of Azem is some kind of massive thing that rules around the entirety of the characters, when in practice it just means you unconciously inherit a legacy of exploring, helping people and making grape memes. That said I do agree it'd be bad if the writers started pulling out characters who are shards of Azem, because as a plot point it's already done.
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Apr 26, 2023 18:28
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Wait, since when is Tenzen a direct reincarnation/shard of Azem? I might be forgetting it but I thought it was just that Tenzen was a WoL (which btw doesn't mean an Azem shard, unless you're saying Lamitt and cia were too) who was also a swel hero and that's why the Four Lords were reminded of him. Yeah, I feel like people thinking Tenzen is Azem is a little premature, it's like saying "ancient Ramza was obviously an Azem shard!" Introducing other shards' Parallels to Our World Selves has rarely been a major focus anyways? I'm more interested in whether Zero is a Cecil parallel to whether she's an Azem Shard (which to be honest, I doubt.) The WoL is the only Azem who matters plotwise post-ShB.
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Apr 26, 2023 18:29
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The Tenzen thing is that they bring up that possibility, which they don't do for Ramza, and also have us literally turn into Tenzen during the new Tataru Grand Endeavour Quest whilst using his sword to intimidate someone claiming to be Tenzen reborn. Or thereabouts, it's an implication the Four Lords quests have played with, and the recent quest builds on it. Technically it's that we are a reincarnation of Tenzen (an implication presented as a possibility by the original Four Lords Questline) which as of Shadowbringers would make us both reincarnations (but still unique individuals) of a shard of the unnamed Azem who is Hades friend. Think Avatar Aang being reincarnated but all of the prior Avatars having their own goals with a few shared traits. Reincarnation clearly in FFXIV is not "you are the same person whose destiny is wholly defined by who you were". It is just, hey you were this person in your past life and maybe you have some soul deep character traits? As said, I don't want a bunch of Azem shards from the shards of Eitherys, I specifically would find a villainous Azem Shard interesting, and Golbez so far has stuff that hints he could be. I very much don't want another Ardbert, but a new exploration of the idea. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 18:35
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Jetrauben posted:As far as the Azem thing goes, my opinion on How Much is a Reincarnation The Same Person Debate is well known, but I think that Shadowbringers at least demands the interpersonal ties to undermine the tired old "I am putting mortaldom on trial!" beats and make it clear that Hades' ultimate motivations are interpersonal and emotional, not higher abstract philosophy. I think this is interesting because hades' motivations very obviously ping to me as interpersonal and emotional regardless (he's literally embedding in local populations for lifetimes to orchestrate the conditions for genocide, there is no way to do that in an abstract and removed way), but I can see how it's a useful emotional hook for people and helpful for the "wow maybe you actually should see thing emet's way" POV. I think the story tends to stumble when it overemphasizes your personal ties to villains (like, I'd rather the text reckon with Emet, architect of history's greatest atrocities than Emet, your jilted and permanently aggrieved ex-bff), but giving a reason for the player to also be like "oh, the beauty of the past and what we lost..." can also be good (provided you can land the plane on the issue of "but it's already lost and we must instead embrace the beauty of the world as it is", which I think is one of the sore points around endwalker for many people)
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Apr 26, 2023 18:38
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Valentin posted:I think this is interesting because hades' motivations very obviously ping to me as interpersonal and emotional regardless (he's literally embedding in local populations for lifetimes to orchestrate the conditions for genocide, there is no way to do that in an abstract and removed way), but I can see how it's a useful emotional hook for people and helpful for the "wow maybe you actually should see thing emet's way" POV. I think the story tends to stumble when it overemphasizes your personal ties to villains (like, I'd rather the text reckon with Emet, architect of history's greatest atrocities than Emet, your jilted and permanently aggrieved ex-bff), but giving a reason for the player to also be like "oh, the beauty of the past and what we lost..." can also be good (provided you can land the plane on the issue of "but it's already lost and we must instead embrace the beauty of the world as it is", which I think is one of the sore points around endwalker for many people) Well this is one of the areas where we basically have to accept a certain level of fantasy unicorns, right? Like on the one hand, Emet-Selch is, by text, responsible (no matter how carefully he arranges it so he's not the one who actually does it or starts it, he just engenders situations whose breakdowns lead to it) for the destruction of multiple worlds and multiple imperial aggressors. He is complicit in both physical and cultural genocide on a scope that beggars belief. On the other, he's an immortal wizard ghost fully aware of reincarnation in a world where that's a material fact, doing so to explicitly restore the original shape of the world and its people. And he does so through pure fantasy nonsense that has little relation to the actual mechanisms of real-world genocide. I think we kind of have to accept that in the narrative's emotional universe Emet-Selch is not the same as the setting's actual architects of very real, very familiar genocide - the villain who most resembles real-life fascist tyrants responsible for genocide is not Emet-Selch, it's Yotsuyu, who aims to exterminate her people's culture through starvation and oppression to either wipe them out entirely or simply annihilate their cultural identity, or Varis, the sneering authoritarian tyrant. Emet's complicity in the doom of worlds is a grand fantasy extrapolation of a very personal anguish about the loss of one's home and loved ones, it's meant as much to represent his emotional turmoil and a damnation he needs help escaping (albeit through a spot of terminal physical therapy) as it is to be a Literal This Dude is a Fantasy Nazi. And that device is always something of a your-mileage-may-vary. After Endwalker it always interests me that it's Emet who gets this particular discussion, and not Meteion, the villain who explicitly weaponizes despair and depression to drive people to a point of hopeless misery until they terminally blackpill, become monsters and lash out to hurt those they love and care for. Meteion is responsible for unimaginable nightmares of sadism and cruelty! She commits genocide on a level of both malice and scale that Emet is nothing. But we all understand she's basically just Hermes' instrument, so... Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 18:45
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I mean, there are plenty of people in the real world who believe in an afterlife and reincarnation and that doesn't make it any less bad if they murder someone. I see the general point you're reaching for but given that every calamity we're aware of involved lots of death and murder (and I was referring specifically to the Garlean Empire, which emet guides with an active hand for most of the game because he is either literally leading it while alive as Solus or acting as the power behind the throne to Varis), I think the game sort of tries to have its cake and eat it too a little too much on that point. But I'll grant that the reincarnation bit is useful for humanizing Emet, which was always seemingly the writer's goal for it even if I found the execution wanting. E: meteion doesn't get this discussion because she was, as presented, very nearly a literal child who is shown to be learning important basic concepts about the world and is presented as being painfully and traumatically overwhelmed by everything that happens to her from the moment she reconnects to the hivemind. emet selch is an immortal wizard who shows up again to say "and I don't regret a solitary shred of it," I don't think it's very surprising the discourse shakes out the way it does. Valentin fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 18:58
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Valentin posted:I mean, there are plenty of people in the real world who believe in an afterlife and reincarnation and that doesn't make it any less bad if they murder someone. I see the general point you're reaching for but given that every calamity we're aware of involved lots of death and murder (and I was referring specifically to the Garlean Empire, which emet guides with an active hand for most of the game because he is either literally leading it while alive as Solus or acting as the power behind the throne to Varis), I think the game sort of tries to have its cake and eat it too a little too much on that point. But I'll grant that the reincarnation bit is useful for humanizing Emet, which was always seemingly the writer's goal for it even if I found the execution wanting. I mean, if you take "I don't regret a solitary shred of it" as something he actually believes as opposed to him conceding that the world of the present isn't for him and trying to smooth his departure over for you, you're looking at it differently than I am. But yeah, I dunno, it's just interesting. I'm not defending Emet, I'm saying I think the narrative kind of uses his crimes primarily as an aspect of his personal torment, and the fact that his role in said crimes are so specifically indirect at most (he's not actually in charge for most of the game, even Varis he's the power behind the throne for the 4.x patches) is part of how they get away with him being treated differently. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Apr 26, 2023 |
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Apr 26, 2023 19:12
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He regrets it but he's still a prideful rear end in a top hat and he can't change the past anyway, all he can do is help the future which he does by helping you save the entire universe. He can't kill himself any deader than you've already made him
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Apr 26, 2023 19:17
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FuturePastNow posted:He regrets it but he's still a prideful rear end in a top hat and he can't change the past anyway, all he can do is help the future which he does by helping you save the entire universe Yeah, I think the significance of him saying it is ultimately him saying "I can't live in this world as I am, so I'm gonna give reincarnation a try. Don't be too sad, ok?"
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Apr 26, 2023 19:18
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yeah I don't mean to suggest the line should be taken at face value (I find it eyeroll inducing but that's a writing complaint), since emet is a sideline in all this anyways and I mostly just meant to acknowledge that the azem thing is indeed useful for humanizing him and not having to think too hard about what he actually did. just that it's not surprising the discourse focuses on him with lines like that, and not the child who has difficulty speaking and can't even enjoy a nice candy apple.
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Apr 26, 2023 19:24
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FuturePastNow posted:He regrets it but he's still a prideful rear end in a top hat and he can't change the past anyway, all he can do is help the future which he does by helping you save the entire universe. He can't kill himself any deader than you've already made him Jetrauben posted:Yeah, I think the significance of him saying it is ultimately him saying "I can't live in this world as I am, so I'm gonna give reincarnation a try. Don't be too sad, ok?" He can't take back what he said and what he did. He can't live as the thing he's become in the world as it is now. The only atonement, and path forward, is to wash the slate clean and begin again. And, of course, because he's tsundere as gently caress he's going to leave the stage being as sassy about it as possible. So, instead of saying he's sorry, he's going to say he stands by what he said: Your victory over him makes him the villain. And as the defeated villain it's time for him to show himself out.
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Apr 26, 2023 19:25
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