Star Citizen: Death of a Space Thread?

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > Star Citizen: Death of a Space Thread?

Lladre: Jun 28, 2011; Soiled Meat

ManofManyAliases posted:

I didn't say that they couldn't get refunds. Refunds are at CIG's discretion. I said they aren't entitled to refunds (except in locations where there are consumer protection laws) and that if challenged in court, it is very likely that the TOS would hold-up if a user agreed to a particular version.

How are they not entitled to a refund when they have not delivered the product the consumer paid for?
(No, early access "Alpha" is not a delivery of a finished product.)

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:22

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 02:31

Nicholas: Mar 7, 2001; Were those not fine days, when we drank of clear honey, and spoke in calm tones of our love for the stuff?

ManofManyAliases posted:

I didn't say that they couldn't get refunds. Refunds are at CIG's discretion. I said they aren't entitled to refunds (except in locations where there are consumer protection laws) and that if challenged in court, it is very likely that the TOS would hold-up if a user agreed to a particular version.

Do you think the original TOS that stated they would release the financials if the game wasnt released by 2014 would hold up in court?

edit: beaten

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:24

HoneyBakedMAN: Oct 26, 2007; Sliced for babewiches

Nicholas posted:

I don't think there will ever be legal action. The casuals will simply move on from a failed kickstarter. The hardcore whales who go down with the ship will claim that they got their moneys worth, funded a dream, let CIG produce tech that could be licensed out in the future (lol), or some how saved the PC industry from certain death.

There might be a small subset of big spenders who wanted a refund but didnt request it in time.

I dunno, it's hard for me to believe that the whales who spent 10k+ will "go down with the ship" as you say.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:24

Tokamak: Dec 22, 2004

ManofManyAliases posted:

I said they aren't entitled to refunds (except in locations where there are consumer protection laws)

So, essentially every country.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:26

big nipples big life: May 12, 2014

Told you they couldn't get a refund in Somalia :smuggo:

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:29

Virtual Captain: Feb 20, 2017; Archive Priest of the Stimperial Order

Star Citizen Good, in all things forevermore. Amen.

ManofManyAliases posted:

I didn't say that they couldn't get refunds. Refunds are at CIG's discretion. I said they aren't entitled to refunds (except in locations where there are consumer protection laws) and that if challenged in court, it is very likely that the TOS would hold-up if a user agreed to a particular version.

Beaten on multiple points. No way this TOS stands up.

Go watch Terms and Conditions May Apply (2013) though.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:31

Nicholas: Mar 7, 2001; Were those not fine days, when we drank of clear honey, and spoke in calm tones of our love for the stuff?

HoneyBakedMAN posted:

I dunno, it's hard for me to believe that the whales who spent 10k+ will "go down with the ship" as you say.

Why not? Those whales are still throwing money at the game after all this time. They obviously don't think CIG is doing anything illegal or dishonest, or being mismanaged. Pretty much the only thing CIG could ever do to sour them is to actually "release" the game, which could never live up to everyones (wildly different) expectations.

The money is already spent and when the game implodes it'll be much easier to move the goal posts and take something positive out of the experience then admit you got swindled for thousands of dollars... and having to admit that Derek Smart was right.

Nicholas fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Mar 13, 2017

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:31

TheAgent: Feb 16, 2002; The call is coming from inside Dr. House; Grimey Drawer

moma stop posting about starships and go find a human being to rid you of your incel status

either by sex or therapy, in the words of chris roberts, just do it

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:33

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

TrustmeImLegit posted:

Lets say I made a purchase when the TOS said I was entitled to a financial accounting. Where is it?

That's providing you completely discontinued use of CIGs services (no website, discord, spectrum, etc). IDK.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:41

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

Lladre posted:

How are they not entitled to a refund when they have not delivered the product the consumer paid for?
(No, early access "Alpha" is not a delivery of a finished product.)

It's still in development and there are still good faith efforts to produce a product and finished game. Continued use of the service means you agree with this.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:42

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

Nicholas posted:

Do you think the original TOS that stated they would release the financials if the game wasnt released by 2014 would hold up in court?

edit: beaten

Doesn't matter, since that was modified. I doubt anyone still has a claim to those original terms anyway and if so, have likely already been offered a refund.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:43

trucutru: Jul 9, 2003; by Fluffdaddy

ManofManyAliases posted:

I didn't say that they couldn't get refunds. Refunds are at CIG's discretion. I said they aren't entitled to refunds (except in locations where there are consumer protection laws) and that if challenged in court, it is very likely that the TOS would hold-up if a user agreed to a particular version.

You see the problem is that when the number of locations were you're entitled to refunds is way larger than the ones were you're not then they are not really exceptions. Sure, the TOS may hold-up in North Korea, but it all depends on Kim Jong-un being into tickling films or not.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:45

TrustmeImLegit: Jan 14, 2017; by FactsAreUseless

ManofManyAliases posted:

That's providing you completely discontinued use of CIGs services (no website, discord, spectrum, etc). IDK.

Well the TOS itself says this doesn't replace earlier provisions of the TOS (as that's not allowed). So the new TOSs would only apply on additional purchases/usage on my part. You should know this you wrote it.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:45

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

Nicholas posted:

Why not? Those whales are still throwing money at the game after all this time. They obviously don't think CIG is doing anything illegal or dishonest, or being mismanaged. Pretty much the only thing CIG could ever do to sour them is to actually "release" the game, which could never live up to everyones (wildly different) expectations.

The money is already spent and when the game implodes it'll be much easier to move the goal posts and take something positive out of the experience then admit you got swindled for thousands of dollars... and having to admit that Derek Smart was right.

To be fair, there are many of us whales that thing there is some level of mis-management. At the same time, look at the amount of posts/communication from CR compared to the rest of the development team; it has significantly shrunk, and probably with reason.
There is no way that all 140+ million has been already spent. But what do I know - I'm just a backer.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:46

big nipples big life: May 12, 2014

How many months out of the past 3 years have they made 3+ million (the low end of burn rate estimations)?

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:49

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

TrustmeImLegit posted:

Well the TOS itself says this doesn't replace earlier provisions of the TOS (as that's not allowed). So the new TOSs would only apply on additional purchases/usage on my part. You should know this you wrote it.

Certain provisions of the new TOS apply to new purchases,. However, the newer version of the TOS applies if you agree to continue use of CIG services, such as logging into forums, downloading patches, etc.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:49

Nicholas: Mar 7, 2001; Were those not fine days, when we drank of clear honey, and spoke in calm tones of our love for the stuff?

ManofManyAliases posted:

Doesn't matter, since that was modified. I doubt anyone still has a claim to those original terms anyway and if so, have likely already been offered a refund.

...And if the modified version was never agreed to by both parties?

Come on we've been over this all before. The TOS is poo poo. Everyone knows it. People ARE entitled to refunds because the game has not be delivered. CIG thought they could get away with it and tried to deny refunds until the DA and AG got involved.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:49

The Titanic: Sep 15, 2016; Unsinkable

TrustmeImLegit posted:

Yesterday I had a nice talk with one of my fellows in my org. We talked about CR's promises, especially regarding subsumption.

One of CR's core promises is: "the player can do whatever a NPC can do". It also works the other way around: "the NPC can do whatever a player can do". For example, NPC ships are controlled by NPCs which are doing their jobs as much as they would do on a player controlled ships. And players can do the very same jobs. Also, NPCs can take missions as well as players can, which means, any job appearing on the job board IS done by someone, be it a PC or a NPC.

If CIG is able to pull that stunt, that's already a rather impressive feat.

Also CR promised us a "living" universe. NPCs do have lives as much as PCs have. They have a daily routine, they have a place where they sleep, they have their own hangars, their own ships etc. In a way NPCs and PCs are nearly indistinguishable from a certain point of view. Also there's that promise NPCs keep track of their interactions with other players, resulting in a dynamic relationship. They might become loyal friends - or have their own agenda, playing a foul game with certain players. And since the promise is still valid, NPCs may also have relationships with other NPCs and keeping track - which simply adds even more layers of complexity.

If CIG is able to do that, they nearly almost created a simulation of a small society.

And now substract any PCs from the game. Do it.

You may suddenly realize the game doesn't really need PCs to create a living universe. If done right, NPCs keep each other occupied with jobs, ever increasing relationships (or falling ones). They might even double cross each other. The command staff of the UEEN may decide to bring war to the Vanduul or vice versa. The economy is supporting that war - and the war may be lost if the economy fails doing so. Also the Xi'An may take a move towards UEE space, the old cold war turns in a hot one. Elections may happen, entire systems may suffer a total breakdown thanks to pirate raids against convoys and the UEEN may send fleets dealing with those pirates.

Now think about that. Basically, that's what CR promised in a nutshell. An living universe that's basically an independent simulation of a (small scale) society.

All these ideas just need simple code layered on top of them.

It's the Bethesda fever dream of Radiant AI except they added in the Chris Roberts caveat of "but of course we're not going to do it like them, we're going to do it right."

Meanwhile they can't nail down a flight model in their space game, doors don't work, and the MMO player limit is <16. All this after 5 years and a multinational company of hundreds of people.

So of course it'll happen. Just keep giving your money over and all your dreams will happen. You can even marry an NPC and won't even realize it's not even a human because they are just more real than real.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:50

Lladre: Jun 28, 2011; Soiled Meat

ManofManyAliases posted:

It's still in development and there are still good faith efforts to produce a product and finished game. Continued use of the service means you agree with this.

We are not talking about continuing use of services. We are talking about getting a refund. "Good faith efforts" mean nothing when a refund is requested.

Party A paid Party B for Product X.
Product X is not delivered nor finished. (Despite good faith efforts)
Party B owes Party A their money.

There is no reason to even go to fancy consumer protection laws. This is basic law.
The only way Party B gets out of paying back Party A is by chapter 11. And so long SC and SQ42.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:51

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

Ol Cactus Dick posted:

How many months out of the past 3 years have they made 3+ million (the low end of burn rate estimations)?

Total in February: $1,966,022
Total in January: $1,753,012
Total in December: $3,021,676

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:51

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

Nicholas posted:

...And if the modified version was never agreed to by both parties?

Come on we've been over this all before. The TOS is poo poo. Everyone knows it. People ARE entitled to refunds because the game has not be delivered. CIG thought they could get away with it and tried to deny refunds until the DA and AG got involved.

Then get a refund or file suit. I've seen one, but not the other.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:52

Nicholas: Mar 7, 2001; Were those not fine days, when we drank of clear honey, and spoke in calm tones of our love for the stuff?

ManofManyAliases posted:

Then get a refund or file suit. I've seen one, but not the other.

The fact that you're posting a lot makes me wonder if there is some CIG drama happening right now that you're trying to draw attention from.

WHAT ARE YOU HIDING

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:54

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

ManofManyAliases posted:

Total in February: $1,966,022
Total in January: $1,753,012
Total in December: $3,021,676

Total earned in 2016: $36,100,538
Total earned in 2015: $35,961,202

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:56

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

Nicholas posted:

The fact that you're posting a lot makes me wonder if there is some CIG drama happening right now that you're trying to draw attention from.

WHAT ARE YOU HIDING

I mean, since I don't work for CIG I couldn't tell you.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:56

big nipples big life: May 12, 2014

ManofManyAliases posted:

Total in February: $1,966,022
Total in January: $1,753,012
Total in December: $3,021,676

That's not good.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:57

ManofManyAliases: Mar 21, 2016; ToastOfManySmarts

Can't post for 3 hours!

Ol Cactus Dick posted:

That's not good.

It's relative. 2.6.2 drop, upcoming concept sale and 2.7 or 3.0 will fuel the flame again.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 16:58

AP: Jul 12, 2004; One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them; Grimey Drawer

ManofManyAliases posted:

I didn't say that they couldn't get refunds. Refunds are at CIG's discretion. I said they aren't entitled to refunds (except in locations where there are consumer protection laws) and that if challenged in court, it is very likely that the TOS would hold-up if a user agreed to a particular version.

Yeah I remember, it was funny.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:03

big nipples big life: May 12, 2014

ManofManyAliases posted:

It's relative. 2.6.2 drop, upcoming concept sale and 2.7 or 3.0 will fuel the flame again.

The "flame" just barely hits the low end of burn rate estimates though. No room for the most expensive mocap studio in the world or lovely, overpriced airplane furniture.

e: Like 3 million burn rate for CIG requires them being very frugal and loving lol if you think CIG has ever been frugal.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:05

AP: Jul 12, 2004; One Ring to fool them all
One Ring to find them
One Ring to milk them all
and pockets fully line them; Grimey Drawer

3.0 is being rolled into 3.1 which also includes crop dusting, live stock breeding and an updated version of Backgammon set in the 25th century.

These extra features may delay things though.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:09

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

Something must be going on, or about to go on, with MoMA being on a posting spree.

And Jobbo_Fett was on a meltdown of binging on reports? lol I couldn't quite tell why he got a probie for that post, but I guess that leper colony comment explains it.

XK fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Mar 13, 2017

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:09

TheAgent: Feb 16, 2002; The call is coming from inside Dr. House; Grimey Drawer

ManofManyAliases posted:

To be fair, there are many of us whales that thing there is some level of mis-management. At the same time, look at the amount of posts/communication from CR compared to the rest of the development team; it has significantly shrunk, and probably with reason.
There is no way that all 140+ million has been already spent. But what do I know - I'm just a backer.

2014 operating costs at a single office in the UK: $8.5m
2015 operating costs at a single office in the UK: $22.6m
2016 operating costs at a single office in the UK: $21.8m
Total operating costs for a single office in the UK for 3 years: $52.9m

You still have:

Imaginarium Motion Capture
A-List Cast Salaries
F42 Germany operating costs since 2014
CIG LA operating costs since 2012
CIG Austin operating costs since 2012/2013

Not forgetting several paid contractors:

Illfonic
Kythera
Three different Asian movie and game art design firms

Here is also an updated list of every position they need to fill:
https://www.creativeheads.net/company/118552/cloud-imperium-games-jobs

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:10

XK: Jul 9, 2001; Star Citizen is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it's fidelity when you look out your window or when you watch youtube

Ol Cactus Dick posted:

e: Like 3 million burn rate for CIG requires them being very frugal and loving lol if you think CIG has ever been frugal.

3 million is total baseline. I don't believe at all that they've been at baseline. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out they were averaging 4+ million per month, with all crobblers adventures in cinematic production and various extravagances.

Even the baseline requires 100g per day.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:13

Tank Boy Ken: Aug 24, 2012; J4G for life; Fallen Rib

Even "just" the UK office is over 1.8 million a month.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:20

Xaerael: Aug 25, 2010; Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

ManofManyAliases posted:

I didn't say that they couldn't get refunds. Refunds are at CIG's discretion. I said they aren't entitled to refunds (except in locations where there are consumer protection laws) and that if challenged in court, it is very likely that the TOS would hold-up if a user agreed to a particular version.

You're a loving idiot. No wonder the world is in such a state with people like you clogging up it's population.

Make natural selection great again, IMO.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:34

Cao Ni Ma: May 25, 2010

Hahahaha yeah challenge them in any state thats already hosed over people claiming a ToS is enough to strip someone of their rights. Hell, just refer it to california's AG since they have a studio there. They'll buckle every single time till they physically cant buckle anymore.

Ummm your honor it clearly says in this thing that we dont need to give them refunds, just ignore all the other things we've done before saying you were entitled to a refund, also ignore that we haven't been using a well known crowdfunding site and instead using our own storefront, also ignore that we have precedence in other country selling these things as goods/services and not donations. Please?

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:39

Xaerael: Aug 25, 2010; Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

I have no time for lovely legal sharks who think that if they can trick someone into signing something, or ticking a box, they can fool them into signing away their rights.

Seriously, gently caress you MoMA, you are the loving worst, and I hope something terrible and ironic befalls you because you're scum and you should be taxed on every lovely lying word you type.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:48

Xaerael: Aug 25, 2010; Marching Powder is objectively the worst poster known. He also needs to learn how a keyboard works.

I'm mainly angry about this type of shittyness because my godfather, who was an amazing dude, got hit by an investment scam when he was terminally ill, and they used the exact same lovely tactics to stall him getting his money back until he was dead.

gently caress you MoMA. I hope your dick falls off.

# ? Mar 13, 2017 17:51

big nipples big life: May 12, 2014

nice beltdown

# ? Mar 13, 2017 18:03

trucutru: Jul 9, 2003; by Fluffdaddy

ManofManyAliases posted:

Certain provisions of the new TOS apply to new purchases,. However, the newer version of the TOS applies if you agree to continue use of CIG services, such as logging into forums, downloading patches, etc.

Well, I didn't agree to continue using their services and have not logged into any account, downloaded patches, etc. so where are the financials that I was promised?

Or can just CIG just come, make a new TOS that says, "we don't have to deliver no freaking game" and all judges are going to be "IRON-CAST!"?

# ? Mar 13, 2017 18:07

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 02:31

Samizdata: May 14, 2007

ManofManyAliases posted:

That's providing you completely discontinued use of CIGs services (no website, discord, spectrum, etc). IDK.

You do realize what an unethical Catch-22 that is. "Yeah, I backed, so I went to check in on my 'investment' status and found out there was a new ToS. In reading the ToS to see if I agreed with it, I agreed to the ToS?" There is no way that should be able to happen with anyone ethical, and you should be embarrassed to even bring it up.

EDIT: Kinda makes me wish they would change to the ToS to say "By reading this, you hereby give up any and all legal rights to any repercussions and means of recompense. In addition, you will take what we give you with zero avenues of recourse." Then you smug types could see what it is like for the rest of the folks.

Samizdata fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Mar 13, 2017

# ? Mar 13, 2017 18:10

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