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HELP! I'm going to Europe, what do I do? ... I'm planning a trip to Europe from March 23 to April 20. I'm starting in Rome and that's inflexible as my sister will be joining me for 1 week and her preference was for Italy. She'll be flying out of Venice on March 31. So far we want to see Rome and Venice and maybe a few things in between in 6 days. After that I'm free to do whatever I want for 3 weeks... and I don't know what that is. Stuff I'm interested in (don't expect to see them all, just some subset -- the GOOD subset!): Berlin, Munich, Prague, Vienna, Madrid, Barcelona, Paris, French Riviera, the Nurburgring. Places I've already been and don't need to hit: The UK, Amsterdam, Portugal, Le Mans I'm most concerned about making the best, most enjoyable use of my time. I realize that 4 weeks isn't very long. I'm willing to spend more money to travel faster and stay in nicer places as necessary, but I would like to do the hostel thing here and there just to meet some people (since I'll be alone otherwise). The first thing I'd like to accomplish soon is book my flights to Rome. I'm trying to figure out if I will be able to actually book my return flight (to home, San Francisco) or not. I haven't figured out if I should do some kind of loop and end in Rome (round trip flights seem to save money), or if I should end in Spain or something... or Frankfurt because every flight to and from SF seems to go through there. Are there any good blogs, websites, or books with pre-planned routes I can use as a starting point? (i.e. stay here, see these 4 things, take a train to there, take a bus to there, see these things, fly to there...) Also, I'm less concerned with seeing whole countries than I am with getting a good experience out of particular cities.
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Feb 3, 2013 20:17
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I'd personally cut Madrid from that trip since its a bit out of the way. Venice, Barcelona, French Riveria, up to Paris makes for a good trip.
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Feb 4, 2013 02:50
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I'm not sure if this merits a new thread but my question is kind of tell me about traveling to europe with kids. I checked the OP and didn't see much information about it. I've been to europe before and am a fairly experienced traveler I feel, but this time around we're going to have a young one with us. We're wanting to go next year when she'll be 18 months. We're ok with not jam packing in a bunch of sights like we did before the baby arrived, but we're just not sure what would be best. Ireland or Paris are the ideas. Taking a baby seat or driving or even taking trains is not a huge thing to us. Same with passports,shots etc. I dont think we'd mind seeing just a few sights in a day I also realize realize many people live in these places with kids. My mostly older family says don't try going to europe with a kids, but then again they also believe obama is a communist, so I tend to not listen to them most of the time. It's mostly just understanding what is the range of what people can pull off while there.
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Feb 4, 2013 04:18
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It actually is possible to do probably a lot more than you probably think with a kid. My parents (sometimes just my mom) took me and my brother all over Europe throughout our childhood, and she is definitely the pack-things-in type person. I don't think there exists a Viking museum in Northern England that I haven't been to. To give you an example, when I was three and my brother pretty newborn we travelled to Paris, through Switzerland and a good chunk of Germany in a few weeks. I don't remember any of this trip except throwing up on a swing in a playground in Berlin, but it happened, and I also know my mom got to see a lot of the sights she wanted to see. So yeah, there's no real specific question there, and while you won't be able to see AS much as you could without kids, it's definitely possible to fit in a few sights a day while travelling with kids.
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Feb 4, 2013 05:14
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HookShot posted:It actually is possible to do probably a lot more than you probably think with a kid. My parents (sometimes just my mom) took me and my brother all over Europe throughout our childhood, and she is definitely the pack-things-in type person. I don't think there exists a Viking museum in Northern England that I haven't been to. Awesome, thanks for sharing. We were thinking either Paris due to the ability to have things nearby or in parts of ireland where we can bnb it up and be pretty calm/carefree about things and it be a more calm/homelike environment. Also a slightly shorter flight.
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Feb 4, 2013 06:21
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I was taken on long train/bus rides since I was 4 months old and I've been riding trains alone in 20 hours trips with multiple exchanges since I was like 10, and this was in the wilderness of eastern europe. You'll be fine.
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Feb 4, 2013 15:29
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Hog Obituary posted:HELP! I'm going to Europe, what do I do? Based on your post, you should do the following: -Buy a Eurail pass for maximum flexibility. That's only if you're intent on hitting 6 countries. The 3-5 country pass is cheaper. -Go to hostelworld.com and look up the best rated hostels. Also, look into the reviews to see if some things are dealbreakers, like no lockers. Book your hostels for Rome and Venice. -After Venice, go to Munich ->Vienna -> Prague -> Berlin -> Cologne (find some way to get to the Nurburgring, I've never been there) -> Paris -> Barcelona - > Madrid. That's a suggested itinerary. Since you're interested in quality over quantity, I'd just take it one city at a time. Book your hostels one day before you travel to the city. Some cities you might want to only stay a day or so. With other cities, you might want to take a lot more. If you don't see every city, save it for your next trip. -Do walking tours and pub crawls in each city. Your hostel probably has some flyers. It's a good way to meet people and get the lay of the land. If your hostel doesn't have flyers, you can search for them on Tripadvisor. -For flights, I'd book a round trip to Rome. A few days before your trip ends, you should which city is your stopping point. So book a flight back to Rome. -Go to the bookstore and check out the Rick Steve series. He has some good suggestions for intineraries.
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Feb 4, 2013 16:48
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TranzorZ posted:Based on your post, you should do the following: Awesome! Thanks so much! Would you say your suggested route is pretty intense? If you were going to cut one or two or three cities out of it, which would you suggest? I fear that trying to fit the nurburgring in is one of the more time-burning parts of the trip. Is Cologne itself worthwhile? Hog Obituary fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Feb 4, 2013 |
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Feb 4, 2013 18:08
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I loved Salzburg which is on the way to Vienna from Munich. More great beer, easily walkable old town, and a cool castle on a hill. Two days was all I needed there and maybe a two hour drive from Munich. Munich is great too. The dachau day trip is messed up but worth it. And when you get back hearing people say anything ( Obama) is hitler you'll want to punch them.
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Feb 4, 2013 20:03
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Hog Obituary posted:Awesome! Thanks so much! Would you say your suggested route is pretty intense? If you were going to cut one or two or three cities out of it, which would you suggest? 3 weeks is not as long as it seems when you're planning it. By all means, plot out a route for all of these places, but pick a route that puts the stuff you're most interested in first, because you're pretty likely to only make it about halfway through it before needing to get back home - plan on flying if you have things you're really excited about that are far apart. The distances are basically irrelevant if you're flying in Europe (everything on your list is within about 3 hours of each other by plane) so you can make a total mess of a route and it won't matter at all. If you take the train, the Venice-Barcelona-Riviera-Paris suggestion is probably the most doable. If you end up with extra time you might be able to squeeze in a couple days in Germany at the end. You can theoretically make it to all these places in three weeks, but only if you're comfortable with checklist tourism. You wouldn't have enough time anywhere to see much more than the highlights. VV There are places in Germany where few people speak English, but Berlin isn't one of them. Virtually everyone you talk to will be at least conversant, especially in service industry jobs. duralict fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Feb 5, 2013 |
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Feb 4, 2013 21:53
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I'm going to be studying at Free University of Berlin this upcoming fall. I don't speak German yet (though I'll start formally learning it at FU), so I was wondering how much German I would have to know to shop for groceries and how much English your average Berliner would know. Also, are there any good restaurants in the Southwest part of the city? Like, any doner or currywurst or anything like that? I was also wondering about any entertainment or cultural venues I could find in Berlin.
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Feb 5, 2013 04:52
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:I'm going to be studying at Free University of Berlin this upcoming fall. I don't speak German yet (though I'll start formally learning it at FU), so I was wondering how much German I would have to know to shop for groceries and how much English your average Berliner would know. You'll be fine, almost all the young people (and many older ones too) in Berlin speak English, definitely learn the basics though to not look like a douche/just generally be a decent human being.
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Feb 5, 2013 07:34
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So this is going to likely be the first of many posts I make in this thread in the coming months, unless someone can point me to a better thread to ask these questions. My wife and I recently accepted jobs to work at Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule Zürich aka The Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zürich. The issue is that I've literally never left the United States (or even the East Coast) and my wife is similarly sheltered except for a brief trip to Mexico once. I just got my passport a few days ago and we're travelling to Zürich to start looking for a place to live in about 4 weeks. I have no idea what to expect in visiting a foreign country much less what to expect actually moving to one. I know this thing sounds like a hilariously sheltered goon being scared of the big bad world, but that's kind of how I'm feeling right now. It was hard enough trying to pick out an apartment for grad school when I only lived 4 hours away, I can only imagine how hard it will be when the apartments are on the other side of the planet. Basically what I want to know if there is anyone that has knowledge of Switzerland and of Zürich in particular so that I can just start asking all the questions that keep popping up in our heads as we consider this big move. I'm obviously utilizing other resources right now, but sometimes it's easiest to just ask other goons about these kinds of things.
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Feb 7, 2013 06:43
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Anonymous Zebra posted:My wife and I recently accepted jobs to work at Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule Zürich aka The Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zürich. The issue is that I've literally never left the United States (or even the East Coast) and my wife is similarly sheltered except for a brief trip to Mexico once. I just got my passport a few days ago and we're travelling to Zürich to start looking for a place to live in about 4 weeks. I have no idea what to expect in visiting a foreign country much less what to expect actually moving to one. I know this thing sounds like a hilariously sheltered goon being scared of the big bad world, but that's kind of how I'm feeling right now. It was hard enough trying to pick out an apartment for grad school when I only lived 4 hours away, I can only imagine how hard it will be when the apartments are on the other side of the planet. If you have Archives Access there is a thread of someone asking literally the same question as you, right down to ETHZ. FWIW I live in Switzerland (EPFL/UNIL). Englishforum Switzerland is full of good information, but the people replying regularly mostly seem to be either dicks or bored housewives, so if you ask a basic question, you'll get 3 answers and 2 responses telling you to "screw off and use the archives, rear end in a top hat". Picking out an apartment in Zurich will be a nightmare and will also seem insanely expensive unless you're moving from NYC. Same with the food, transportation, and everything else in Zurich. Also, unlike in the United States, you can't just go and "rent an apartment, take my money." You have to apply for a limited supply and oh boy get ready for rejection. This is less true if you decide to live out in the countryside, but if you do, then you'll want a car. In fact, if you're working at the ETHZ "North" campus (biology etc) then you'll probably want a car anyway. I shipped mine from the US, saved a bundle and now that it's been here 2 years I can sell it for basically what I paid for it new, 8 years ago, in the US. E: In summary: Do you want to live in Zurich, which is expensive and difficult to find an apartment in, and you won't need (and won't want) a car, or do you want to live outside Zurich, which is going to be cheaper, easier to find an apartment in, but also isolated, boring, and you'll need a car? Note if you're working in the ETHZ central campus in Zurich, driving in Zurich is a (specifically designed) nightmare for cars and you will absolutely not want to drive to work; e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/science/earth/27traffic.html?pagewanted=all the converse is true for the north campus, where driving will be much cheaper (and more convenient) than you and your wife both getting transit cards. Saladman fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Feb 7, 2013 |
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Feb 7, 2013 09:02
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Anonymous Zebra posted:So this is going to likely be the first of many posts I make in this thread in the coming months, unless someone can point me to a better thread to ask these questions. You son of a bitch! I'm trying to get into the Federal education system here. drat furiners takin are jahbs  But seriously, I moved to Switzerland 4 years ago (first Geneva, now in Bern) and it's not that bad. The bad parts are: there's a lot of bureaucracy and up front costs to just about everything, things are done at a slow pace and stability is prioritized and incentivized just about everywhere. The good parts are things generally work well. Zurich is a good sized city with a brilliant public transportation network, it's clean, there's very little crime, there are tons of parks and beaches and you're going to get a ridiculously high salary. Finding an apartment in Zurich is just plain tough, there is very little available at any time. You can search on Immoscout or Homegate and there are probably other sites too. Apartments are listed by the total number of rooms minus the kitchen and bathrooms. So a one bedroom apartment would be listed as 2.5 rooms: kitchen and bathroom + 1 bedroom + 1 combined living/dining room (counts as 1.5 rooms). 2 bedrooms would be 3.5 rooms. 4 rooms would be considered a pretty big apartment for a couple here, I think. Leases are usually signed a couple months in advance of moving in so get planning early. There's really such a limited selection that if you find something that's livable, in your budget and within walking/cycling distance to the school or public transit, just take it. You'll be able to move later after you know the city better. Anyway, you'll need an address asap to start getting phones, health insurance, etc. Get PMs so you can start using them. There are more than a few Swiss and Swiss-based goons here, some are in Zurich. It'll be fine once you're here, Zurich has been ranked as top 5 quality of living in the world for like the last 10 years.
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Feb 7, 2013 09:38
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I live in Zurich so feel free to ask for help. You should also start reading through this forum here https://www.englishforum.ch I am not recommending the forum by the way just the information, which is good. Almost any question you have will have already been asked there. My first advice about finding a place to live is, as has already been stated, that it is really difficult and can be very expensive. Don't just look in the centre of Zurich plenty of places outside are great and with the public transport network you won't need to spend a lot of time on the train. Mark out a distance of 30mins (less or more up to you) by public transport from where you will work and start looking in that area. You will notice a huge price difference. Also be aware that tax changes from Geminde to Geminde. Roughly each little town will charge it's own tax rate and that can make a big difference to costs e.g. Tiefenbrunnen down to Meilen have very low tax rates but the housing costs are much higher. You will have to work out tax v housing costs and then figure out if you end up with more money in your pocket at the end of the month or not. http://en.comparis.ch/ Will help with pretty much everything insurance and tax wise if you want to get an idea of costs. If possible I would recommend renting a short term flat or serviced apartment for 6 weeks and getting a feel for the city before you sign a rental agreement. Alot of them only allow you to move out 2x a year and require 3 months notice. Bit poo poo if you get stuck somewhere rubbish
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Feb 7, 2013 13:59
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The plan: 4 days in Paris tacked on at the end of a family vacation in Scotland with the in-laws, arrive CDG lunchtime on 7/3, depart CDG morning of 7/7. Hotel is near Notre Dame on the south bank, right across the street from the Luxembourg Palace gardens (not that this matters with the metro system). Wife has already been to Paris twice and has a list of certain things she wants to do, but also wants me to come up with things that I want to do so we can make a plan. Problem is I have no idea where to start except for the tourism website for ideas. We'll obviously be hitting the requisite highlights for someone who hasn't been aka me, but beyond that i'm fairly clueless on what I want to do. Any suggestions would be most helpful, including bomb-rear end places for food. Things she has mentioned: drinking lots of wine, seine dinner cruise, show at the moulin rouge Things I have found on the tourism website: Submarine tour at the museum of science and industry, gourmet chocolate museum, drinking lots of wine Likes: Museums that don't take all day since we have a short visit, all types of food, ???. I know this is vague but I literally have no idea of what I want here. My travel interests tend to lean towards motorsports; I was able to work our vacation last year to Toronto around the Indycar race. Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
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Feb 7, 2013 19:20
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Anonymous Zebra posted:So this is going to likely be the first of many posts I make in this thread in the coming months, unless someone can point me to a better thread to ask these questions. I moved to Switzerland seven months ago. Always happy to help a fellow transplant. PM me with any questions you have.
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Feb 7, 2013 21:16
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I'm moving to Italy with the girlfriend halfway through this year. I will be taking a small laptop but will need a desktop machine for work after a certain time. What's the situation with buying computer hardware in Europe? I am more than capable of building my own machine, I just don't know where to buy them from online to get the best deals. I think the UK and Germany are big ones, but the UK has the VAT...
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Feb 8, 2013 04:50
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It'll cost quite a bit more and have much less generous return/exchange policies. If you can figure out a way to build it in the US and bring it with you (or ship it cheaply), that's probably the smartest idea.
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Feb 8, 2013 05:24
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Anonymous Zebra posted:So this is going to likely be the first of many posts I make in this thread in the coming months, unless someone can point me to a better thread to ask these questions. Are either of you EU citizens? To get employment as an American in Europe is Winning the lottery due to work permits. And you won it twice. Good for you, I bet you'll love it. Also watch the Rick Steve's video of Zurich on Hulu - the city looks beautiful.
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Feb 8, 2013 07:25
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duralict posted:It'll cost quite a bit more and have much less generous return/exchange policies. If you can figure out a way to build it in the US and bring it with you (or ship it cheaply), that's probably the smartest idea. I'm actually moving from Australia so I may not be losing out as much (comparatively) as an American would. It might be worth just looking into a re-shipper from America, the warranty/return system is a write-off but I might save enough money to justify it. Is there nowhere in Europe that's significantly cheaper than anywhere else for hardware?
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Feb 8, 2013 08:55
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:I'm actually moving from Australia so I may not be losing out as much (comparatively) as an American would. I don't live in Italy, but this feels like an exaggeration as everything seems like it costs bloody peanuts when I visit. These are 2 of the major electronics retailers so you can compare yourself, but I'm sure there are small shops/websites where you can get what you need for cheap. It's loving Italy, ferchrissake. http://www.saturnonlineshop.it/saturn/informatica http://compraonline.mediaworld.it/w...scache=1&page=1
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Feb 8, 2013 09:51
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I've googled this before, those places don't actually sell CPUs or GPUs etc -- for some reason, online Italian retailers generally sell notebooks/desktops and hard drives, then a whole bunch of other poo poo like videos, mobile phones, books, pen drives, dvd players etc. I can't find many dedicated PC parts shops like we have in Australia.
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Feb 8, 2013 10:19
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MasterControl posted:Are either of you EU citizens? To get employment as an American in Europe is Winning the lottery due to work permits. And you won it twice. Good for you, I bet you'll love it. Also watch the Rick Steve's video of Zurich on Hulu - the city looks beautiful. If they both have an MD and/or PhD (which I guess they do), it's not really that hard to get a work permit in Europe / Schengen. Also one more thing that no one mentioned about renting in Switzerland: they will want a three month deposit. This isn't a scam, it's like a completely normal thing that people will even ask subletters to do. I always forget how shocked I was, until someone moves here and mentions how shocked they were when they had to give up their life's savings to move into a rental apartment.
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Feb 8, 2013 12:30
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Saladman posted:If they both have an MD and/or PhD (which I guess they do), it's not really that hard to get a work permit in Europe / Schengen. 3 months is the maximum that will be charged. 2 or even 1.5 months are more normal once the landlord thinks you are trustworthy but it is quite a shock when you first move and are expected to cough up 4 months rent in one go. The company I worked for helped me out with this initial payment when I first moved, I assume other employers would do the same. You can get an insurance for this deposit as well, which basically means you pay it off in monthly instalments.
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Feb 8, 2013 12:39
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:I've googled this before, those places don't actually sell CPUs or GPUs etc -- for some reason, online Italian retailers generally sell notebooks/desktops and hard drives, then a whole bunch of other poo poo like videos, mobile phones, books, pen drives, dvd players etc. I can't find many dedicated PC parts shops like we have in Australia. This is exactly the situation here in Italy. "Mainstream" electronics stores sell only pre-assembled PCs, finding parts shops is hard as hell, and people who build their own PCs tend to shop online. Last time I needed a new PC I bought the parts from a reputable online shop and then assembled them myself. I can point you to a couple sites if you want.
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Feb 8, 2013 19:31
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Mikl posted:Last time I needed a new PC I bought the parts from a reputable online shop and then assembled them myself. I can point you to a couple sites if you want. That would be amazing. That way I can work out whether it's worth buying from the UK etc and shipping it over or just sucking it up and spending a bit more in Italy.
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Feb 8, 2013 23:10
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Alright, these are the two I've had personal experience with. Both sites are in Italian, but I don't think it's a problem since you said you're moving to Italy so I think you can understand enough of the language to browse the sites. E-key Pro: cheap; huge selection; speedy delivery (once they ship). Cons: the site can be a bit of a pain to navigate; they take a while to ship things; sometimes they split orders in two (or more) shipments. CHL Pro: large selection, ships quickly, offers in-shop pickup in several locations in Italy. Cons: on the pricey side. Hope this helps!
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Feb 9, 2013 00:19
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You can also try http://amazon.it/ I don't know how pricey their Italian site is but the French one has decent deals.
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Feb 9, 2013 01:10
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Thanks guys. I'm looking at example systems to see what sort of price range I'm looking at.
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Feb 9, 2013 02:47
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Me and a bunch of guys 24-26 years of age are going to either Hamburg or Tallinn for a weekend trip. I don't have a strong preference either way, but I think Tallinn would be cool because I could drink and eat like a pig without emptying my bank account. The most important thing for me is how cool the nightlife is: if it easy is to meet interesting people and cute girls. I would love it if people who have been from Tallinn could chime in, I don't know anyone who's ever been there.
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Feb 19, 2013 03:34
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Tallinn is really cool. I only spent a day there, and have never been to Hamburg so I can't really compare the two, but Tallinn was one of my favourite cities in Europe to visit. I'm also friends with a few people who basically just travel the world partying, and basically all of them consider Tallinn to be their favourite city in the world to just hang and party.
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Feb 19, 2013 04:07
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Tallinn nightlife is nice, but contains disturbing amounts of Finnish tourists who had the same idea about cheap drinks. The city is great in other ways too, though, and the nightlife is still good, but that can be said for both cities. If you've been to Hamburg before or want to save money, I'd recommend Tallinn.
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Feb 19, 2013 04:29
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Sounds fun. There is only one opponent to Tallinn, and he doesn't want to go because he went to Riga last year and disliked it. Are the two cities much of the same, or is there a clear difference?
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Feb 19, 2013 10:53
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Tallinn goon here. I think even if you disliked Riga you might still like Tallinn. Indeed I have heard from very few people who didn't like Tallinn, and their reason is usually that it's a relatively small place with no huge world-reknown biggest X or oldest Y ever. Yet it's almost guaranteed that the stay would be pleasant. For example, I had some training from a guy from Canada who toured all of Europe giving lectures and seminars... and after the tour was over he came back to Tallinn of all the places, all the way from Canada with his wife, for two weeks, just to chill out here.  Haven't been to Riga myself for a long time, but you could compare the following panoramas Riga: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Vecriga_view_from_saint_peter_church_2011.jpg Tallinn: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Tallinn-panorama.jpg In Tallinn there's the compact, well preserved, mostly pedestrian-only Old Town filled with pubs, restaurants, bars and touristy stuff, very close to it (but clearly separated) is the cool new business/shopping district, which is all surrounded by downtown, which is in turn surrounded at a distance mostly by boring Soviet era suburbs. Riga is a bigger place and has it all more... intermixed, which reduces its character.
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Feb 19, 2013 12:16
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Saladman posted:Do you want to live in Zurich, which is expensive and difficult to find an apartment in, and you won't need (and won't want) a car, or do you want to live outside Zurich, which is going to be cheaper, easier to find an apartment in, but also isolated, boring, and you'll need a car? Even at the "northern campus" (ETH Hönggerberg) it can be a pain to find parking spots. You're definitely better off with public transport or even bikes. A significant number of faculty and student bike to work/study. If you can afford it you should probably get an apartment in district 10 or 11. You can check the prices here http://www.homegate.ch/mieten/wohnung-und-haus/kanton-zuerich?a=default&l=default&incsubs=default&fromItem=ch&tid=1 , with double incomes it shouldn't be too difficult though. Edit: Don't underestimate the difficulty of getting an apartment in Zürich though. The competition is absolutely cut-throat. Visit as many offered apartments as you can, and send in an application for as many as you can, it isn't unusual to need a dozen+ applications for an apartment. Also get in touch with your ETH department who might be able to hook you up with contacts of people who are leaving. peak debt fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 04:44
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Sulla-Marius 88 posted:I'm moving to Italy with the girlfriend halfway through this year. I will be taking a small laptop but will need a desktop machine for work after a certain time. What's the situation with buying computer hardware in Europe? I am more than capable of building my own machine, I just don't know where to buy them from online to get the best deals. I think the UK and Germany are big ones, but the UK has the VAT... I think all of europe has VAT. I'm in the Czech republic, and have learned that virtually everything (electronic based) is far cheaper in the US. It doesn't seem to just be VAT, either. Because it's often 30-40% cheaper.
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Feb 20, 2013 14:21
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Probably best to go to Hamburg. Tallinn is already full of people vomiting on the streets thinking the locals should be thankful for their massive financial contribution. 
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Feb 20, 2013 17:12
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My best friend and I are headed to Russia for 8 days in June. We'll be going to Moscow, Novgorod, and St Petersburg. Is there anything we should go see other than the standard touristy fare? Neither of us speak any Russian but are learning a few phrases.
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Feb 20, 2013 21:46
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