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ReidRansom posted:Why should that alone set off alarm bells? Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 01:24
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If doctors and lawyers are using words of Latin origin throughout their work that's otherwise standard English, doesn't that just make those words English words anyway? They're not writing in Latin and it's not like languages can't share vocabulary.
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Jan 17, 2015 01:26
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quote:“It seems like a continual barrage against police,” said John W. Thompson, interim executive director of the National Sheriffs’ Association. “I’m not saying there’s no wrongdoing, but there is wrongdoing in everything.” Literally a kid with his hand in the cookie jar saying "but everyone steals."
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Jan 17, 2015 01:40
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RuanGacho posted:The fact that the Democrats and Republicans both agree that "education is broken" should be sending up some serious alarms to anyone who thinks they're already influenced too much by corporations. Not really. It's that parents really care deeply about education, and want to improve it. Both parties have a large base of voters who have kids and want better education for their kids. There are a lot of people who don't appear to be able to conceive that people could, in good faith, disagree on what makes a good education and how you improve it. When your response to "man, both parties want to improve education" is "corporatiooooooooooons :argh" you're just using your default explanation for everything.
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Jan 17, 2015 01:50
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SedanChair posted:Literally a kid with his hand in the cookie jar saying "but everyone steals." "b-b-but everyone hates blacks and beats the poo poo out of them for fun!!!!!" 
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Jan 17, 2015 01:55
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evilweasel posted:Not really. It's that parents really care deeply about education, and want to improve it. Both parties have a large base of voters who have kids and want better education for their kids. There are a lot of people who don't appear to be able to conceive that people could, in good faith, disagree on what makes a good education and how you improve it. When your response to "man, both parties want to improve education" is "corporatiooooooooooons :argh" you're just using your default explanation for everything. I would normally consider that a fair criticism if it didn't seem like the solution de jour was charter schools and more charter schools stinks rightly parallel of the privatization of the prison system you can perhaps forgive me for being a bit alarmist. The problem is they don't want to improve education, they constantly chant that education is broken, and there's a nuance there that's important, it's scare tactics that works for both parties. It's some sort of bizarre unique circumstance in America where we still believe in our potential ability to improve things but because it's American politics the solution is the free market "answers" and the end of civic responsibility. If you have a way to describe this attitude besides out of control capitalist corporatism where every libertarian has his day I'm surely open to a better way of describing it.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:02
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Chantilly Say posted:If doctors and lawyers are using words of Latin origin throughout their work that's otherwise standard English, doesn't that just make those words English words anyway? They're not writing in Latin and it's not like languages can't share vocabulary. They're international jargon. It's probably most accurate to think of them as "in Latin" since they are shared by medical professionals using many different languages. Legal terms, at least in common law, are indeed basically obscured English phrases in many cases. disheveled posted:I was going to stay out of this, but you were aggressive enough to deserve a response: It makes reading papers easier because even biologists love to create new technical terms for particular mechanisms or behaviors that are Latin-derived. There is no pressure to learn it but I think you're being too aggressive in your assertions here - you don't know Latin in any formal way and so you are not really familiar with the (limited) benefits that it does give you in tackling scientific writing, or any of the other tiny fringe benefits. It's unnecessary but nice to have. DemeaninDemon posted:Instead they just slide right on through regardless of performance which also sort of, no, totally doesn't work. If you implement a reform to identify problem areas that worsens existing problems due to its implementation are you really doing a net good? I am supportive of Common Core as a concept at least but it seems to be having the effect of further reducing flexibility in the curriculum in practice in many, many places.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:05
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There are only four states Obama has not visited. Idaho, Utah, South Dakota, and South Carolina. He'll visit Idaho on Wednesday. Probably a good idea to continue avoiding the palmetto state.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:07
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Jazerus posted:If you implement a reform to identify problem areas that worsens existing problems due to its implementation are you really doing a net good? I am supportive of Common Core as a concept at least but it seems to be having the effect of further reducing flexibility in the curriculum in practice in many, many places. Does it really? I hear people make that claim but it tends to be a pretty broad statement without any specifics. The closest I've seen was the one regarding Latin Teacher Poster which sounds like it needs to be amended for Latin, but it's a pretty good system for all other foreign language programs. What else is the specific problems with Common Core besides parents mad about their inability to perform math in their child's homework, a fact that already existed previously.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:09
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RuanGacho posted:I would normally consider that a fair criticism if it didn't seem like the solution de jour was charter schools and more charter schools stinks rightly parallel of the privatization of the prison system you can perhaps forgive me for being a bit alarmist. What, in your view, is the primary role of education in America? Education fails to achieve many of the roles assigned to it. In some neighborhoods, charter schools are used as a backdoor for busing. In the south, white children attend private schools while black children are stuck with public schools that are used as an avenue for mixed policy implementation. The answer to an issue isn't always, 'Do something.' Sometimes, doing something is worse than doing nothing. Common Core is on of those issues where doing something lowers the quality of education provision aimed to engender critical thinking skills in students. Is that worth improvements in standardized tests and reliance on the first years of higher education, and the bills which come with it, in order to rectify skillgaps that should have been addressed in highschool? joeburz posted:Does it really? I hear people make that claim but it tends to be a pretty broad statement without any specifics. The closest I've seen was the one regarding Latin Teacher Poster which sounds like it needs to be amended for Latin, but it's a pretty good system for all other foreign language programs. What else is the specific problems with Common Core besides parents mad about their inability to perform math in their child's homework, a fact that already existed previously. Being able to perform the math in your child's homework is a fundamental to a child's education. Its loving stupid to pursue policy which reduces parent engagement with and participation in their children's education. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 02:11
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My Imaginary GF posted:Common Core is on of those issues where doing something lowers the quality of education provision aimed to engender critical thinking skills in students. No, it's not?
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Jan 17, 2015 02:14
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RuanGacho posted:I would normally consider that a fair criticism if it didn't seem like the solution de jour was charter schools and more charter schools stinks rightly parallel of the privatization of the prison system you can perhaps forgive me for being a bit alarmist. Charter schools don't parallel the privatization of prisons at all, it's pretty easy to understand why they're popular. First, they're generally popular in areas where the public schools have failed by any measure. It's easy to argue from afar that the solution is to fix the schools, but parents who have a kid in the school don't trust the school anymore, and also have a limited timeframe: their kid can't go back and get a better education if it's fixed in ten years. The more subtle problem is actually statistical. You see, charter schools are generally small - they don't have a lot of students per school. So if you look at what the best-performing schools are, they're usually charter schools. People see that, and want their kid to go to charter school and believe that charter schools are the answer. They're missing a key issue though. Because the smaller the school is, the more that luck can shift its test scores or other measurable factors from the mean. If you take a collection of small schools, the standout school is likely to outperform the standout school of a collection of big schools. In the bigger school, you've got a bigger population and it;s harder for the average to differ from the mean. That's aside from other factors like being able to cherry-pick students and the like that skew the statistics as well. But the long and short of it is that there can be good reasons why someone honestly believes charter schools are the answer looking at the data. That doesn't mean they're right, but it means that you need to step back and understand why they believe what they do if you want to have an intelligent debate with them and persuade people. I don't generally think charter schools are the answer, but simply assuming everyone who opposes you is evil or motivated by other bad factors is just not a good way to understand this issue. It's much easier but you don't actually get anywhere - and naturally, someone who supports charter schools for the reasons I pointed out is going to tune you out as a moron when you scream about corporations and the like. There's a reason charter schools are broadly popular in parts of the democratic base that has no interest in privatization as a general policy, and if you want to discuss education intelligently you're going to have to put away the assumption that your enemies are bad people.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:17
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My Imaginary GF posted:What, in your view, is the primary role of education in America? I'm only going to reply to this part because I honestly don't understand the rest of it. The primary role of education in America is to create citizens well educated and productive enough to contribute to society and reach further for the unobtainable ideal of a more perfect union. It is generally seen as to a benefit of everyone to make people productive enough to not have to resort to crime and disorder, and educated enough to self govern. Unless you're Republican in which case God gave you the right to self govern the moment you pop out of the womb so good luck with that existing thing, you're God's problem not ours. evilweasel posted:I don't generally think charter schools are the answer, but simply assuming everyone who opposes you is evil or motivated by other bad factors is just not a good way to understand this issue. It's much easier but you don't actually get anywhere - and naturally, someone who supports charter schools for the reasons I pointed out is going to tune you out as a moron when you scream about corporations and the like. There's a reason charter schools are broadly popular in parts of the democratic base that has no interest in privatization as a general policy, and if you want to discuss education intelligently you're going to have to put away the assumption that your enemies are bad people. You're assuming a lot of my mindset admittedly by the language I'm using and perhaps some of my post history but the fundamental bottom line for me is that I don't care how much schools cost within reason, it's a betrayal of egalitarian ideals to send tax payer money to for profit entities which have not shown to improve incomes or lower them at the expense of other members of the public. I don't have enemies in the first place, just wonks that care more about rule by tradition and feelings than science and empiricism. My primary criticism of charter schools is the limited data we have is that they don't improve what shoddy outcomes we are measuring. Education can be RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 02:19
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evilweasel posted:They're missing a key issue though. Because the smaller the school is, the more that luck can shift its test scores or other measurable factors from the mean. If you take a collection of small schools, the standout school is likely to outperform the standout school of a collection of big schools. In the bigger school, you've got a bigger population and it;s harder for the average to differ from the mean. That's aside from other factors like being able to cherry-pick students and the like that skew the statistics as well. But the long and short of it is that there can be good reasons why someone honestly believes charter schools are the answer looking at the data. That doesn't mean they're right, but it means that you need to step back and understand why they believe what they do if you want to have an intelligent debate with them and persuade people. That's not even including how most charter schools can kick out kids for disciplinary issues and often aren't forced to provide special ed programs. Those kids end up back in public school and its an easy way to massive help your numbers. Combine that with mechanisms that automatically eliminate all kids without engaged parents (say requiring a special charter school application & knowledge of the application process) it is easy for charter schools to end up weeding out a lot of the underperforming kids before they even effect one test average.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:21
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Trabisnikof posted:That's not even including how most charter schools can kick out kids for disciplinary issues and often aren't forced to provide special ed programs. Those kids end up back in public school and its an easy way to massive help your numbers. Combine that with mechanisms that automatically eliminate all kids without engaged parents (say requiring a special charter school application & knowledge of the application process) it is easy for charter schools to end up weeding out a lot of the underperforming kids before they even effect one test average. Make it easier for public schools to weed out the worst kids then. Institute mechanisms which automatically eliminate all students without engaged parents from public schools and kick them to the charter system.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:23
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Joementum posted:There are only four states Obama has not visited. Idaho, Utah, South Dakota, and South Carolina. He'll visit Idaho on Wednesday. Since becoming president, right? Pretty sure he visited SC during the primary. My Imaginary GF posted:Make it easier for public schools to weed out the worst kids then. Institute mechanisms which automatically eliminate all students without engaged parents from public schools and kick them to the charter system. So what, a return to the reform school "system"?
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Jan 17, 2015 02:23
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The Warszawa posted:Since becoming president, right? Pretty sure he visited SC during the primary. He even ate some peach cobler down there
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Jan 17, 2015 02:23
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Jazerus posted:If you implement a reform to identify problem areas that worsens existing problems due to its implementation are you really doing a net good? I am supportive of Common Core as a concept at least but it seems to be having the effect of further reducing flexibility in the curriculum in practice in many, many places. I think you are. You're causing problems to come to become blatantly obvious. A big problem, reiterated by even MIGF, comes out like goons to a new pizza hut. Well their online orders anyway. Implementing standards absolutely blows. It's not because of the standards themselves it's that a lot of schools lack resources to offer quality educations--especially in the poorer areas. So to meet these standards, and not get reamed by fuckwads in state legislatures, they hammer the students through test prep after test prep. So they learn gently caress all about anything beyond test taking. See where I am getting at here? Then of course the rich guy answer is charter schools because either: FYGM, "it worked for my kids," or just blatant wanting to destroy public education.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:24
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The Warszawa posted:Since becoming president, right? Pretty sure he visited SC during the primary. Yes, correct. Also, the Alaska visit was a speech to military personnel on an AFB during a refueling stop.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:25
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Joementum posted:There are only four states Obama has not visited. Idaho, Utah, South Dakota, and South Carolina. He'll visit Idaho on Wednesday. I thought he had visited 57 states?
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Jan 17, 2015 02:26
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Joementum posted:There are only four states Obama has not visited. Idaho, Utah, South Dakota, and South Carolina. He'll visit Idaho on Wednesday. Why the hell is he coming to this pit of despair and ski resorts?
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Jan 17, 2015 02:39
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DemeaninDemon posted:Why the hell is he coming to this pit of despair and ski resorts? He'll be speaking at Boise State on themes he plans to talk about in the SotU speech.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:42
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DemeaninDemon posted:Then of course the rich guy answer is charter schools because either: FYGM, "it worked for my kids," or just blatant wanting to destroy public education. Charter schools enable community development by manipulating perceptions of education. Folks move when they can to send their kids to a better school district. Provide families with an alternative to flight, and you increase the quality of education at public schools through improving neighborhood collective efficacy. You're drat straight charters kick out non-engaged, non-performing students: their job is to enable community development, which raises the quality of all educational provision. Most of the criticisms of charters I've read are criticisms of the effects of concentrated poverty. Well, American policy fails to address the structural issues of concentrated poverty. Charter schools do.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:42
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Charter schools enable reduction of labor power while increasing the coffers of a few investors and providing nominal benefit to other forms of education.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:47
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joeburz posted:Charter schools enable reduction of labor power while increasing the coffers of a few investors and providing nominal benefit to other forms of education. They enable your children to obtain what you perceive to be a higher quality of education, while the children who are disruptive to your child's education are kicked out. This enables you to live in place within your community and provides you with a reason to not move to the suburbs at the first chance you get. By staying within your community, the mere continuation of your existance improves the quality of education in public schools by ameliorating some of the effects of concentrated poverty. Does that explain the issue to you? Or are you stuck railing PRIVATE SECTOR = BAD ? Christ you sound like a WASP railing against parochial schools.
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Jan 17, 2015 02:53
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My Imaginary GF posted:They enable your children to obtain what you perceive to be a higher quality of education And their perception isn't reality but because people feel better about it that makes it justifiable. You're touting all these benefits that don't exist, that's why the privitization = bad. edit: earlier you even threw in something about common core moving away from critical thinking skills when improvement in critical thinking skills is specifically one of the points of establishing common core versus prior education reform. esto es malo fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 02:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:They enable your children to obtain what you perceive to be a higher quality of education, while the children who are disruptive to your child's education are kicked out. This enables you to live in place within your community and provides you with a reason to not move to the suburbs at the first chance you get. By staying within your community, the mere continuation of your existance improves the quality of education in public schools by ameliorating some of the effects of concentrated poverty. Considering the two-pronged history of parochial schools in the US, I'm not sure that comparison helps you. Also, maybe I'm misreading this but you seem to be saying that the benefit of charter schools is that it sells snake oil (perceived but not actually better education), making sure kids stay in "their communities" and don't mix with the communities with actually better schools. At the end there you say that this will somehow ameliorate concentrated poverty, but given that charter schools divert funds from the schools that other kids have to go to and do not themselves provide benefits, that seems like a speculative conclusion. I mean I guess you could say that the charter schools will cater to the people that would otherwise move districts but how does that not just stratify the community? The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 03:00
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Joementum posted:He'll be speaking at Boise State on themes he plans to talk about in the SotU speech. I guess the headline "President visits Moscow for State of the Union" was too much of a trap.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:03
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joeburz posted:And their perception isn't reality but because people feel better about it that makes it justifiable. You're touting all these benefits that don't exist, that's why the privitization = bad. Its not privitization; public schools are free to enact policies which improve their perception amongst the communities which they serve. The policy goal of charter schools is to increase urban density and retain non-poverty individuals. It isn't to employ teachers in a high-quality career with secure retirement and benefits.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:05
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Joementum posted:He'll be speaking at Boise State on themes he plans to talk about in the SotU speech. Boise Junior College you mean?
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Jan 17, 2015 03:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:Charter schools enable community development by manipulating perceptions of education. Folks move when they can to send their kids to a better school district. Provide families with an alternative to flight, and you increase the quality of education at public schools through improving neighborhood collective efficacy. You're drat straight charters kick out non-engaged, non-performing students: their job is to enable community development, which raises the quality of all educational provision. My Imaginary GF posted:They enable your children to obtain what you perceive to be a higher quality of education, while the children who are disruptive to your child's education are kicked out. This enables you to live in place within your community and provides you with a reason to not move to the suburbs at the first chance you get. By staying within your community, the mere continuation of your existance improves the quality of education in public schools by ameliorating some of the effects of concentrated poverty. School choice is a dog whistle for segregation. Michigan has more for-profit charter schools than any other state in the country. In a few weeks we have one charter school manager going to trial for federal felony fraud charges. There's another guy in the state who's trying to open up charter schools based on the Hillsdale College model where all students are required to learn to speak Latin because that's what our founding fathers did. Charter schools are a drain on resources and do not provide a better education.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:16
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My Imaginary GF posted:Its not privitization; public schools are free to enact policies which improve their perception amongst the communities which they serve. Sometimes I wonder if you know you're arguing against your own points. Other times I don't care because you're stupid.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:16
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Massachusetts legislators were inspired by yesterday #Blacklivesmatter protestors and have filed a bill in response.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:39
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So, who's promised Rahm a sweet lobbying gig? Is it a charter school company directly, or some other company that benefits from mulching poor children? MIGF, how do you feel about for-profit prisons? Charter prisons, if you will.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:47
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e: nm
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Jan 17, 2015 03:51
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Joementum posted:There are only four states Obama has not visited. Idaho, Utah, South Dakota, and South Carolina. He'll visit Idaho on Wednesday. What about the other seven? Badger of Basra posted:I thought he had visited 57 states? 
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Jan 17, 2015 03:57
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Samurai Sanders posted:I heard a lot about their recent fuckups while I was visiting Seattle over Christmas. They seem to have little sense of how things are on the ground in any problem they try to fix, much like the arguments against Common Core (and even as a teacher myself, I am not sure where I stand on that yet). That's more of a factor of them having more money than god, and a stated philosophy that they want to spend most of their fortune on all sorts of charities before they die. They're currently at a net worth of $81 billion and their charity foundation has $35 billion separate from that, it's insane. They're one step away from just dropping cartoon money sacks out of car and plane doors.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:59
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"There are these things called aircraft carriers where planes land on them." Also in the room for Mitt's speech: Mark Block #CainTrain2016 (In case you've forgotten who Mark Block is, click this)
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Jan 17, 2015 04:09
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Jan 17, 2015 04:15
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Nintendo Kid posted:They're one step away from just dropping cartoon money sacks out of car and plane doors. I hope that's in his will.
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Jan 17, 2015 04:17
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