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For every reason an Eorzean has to detest the Garleans, the Garleans have more to detest them. They haven't been living in a barren icy shithole because the three continents were welcome hosts. Plus the last couple generations were ripe with propaganda. That's not the sort of thing that disappears overnight.
Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 20:39 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 20:37
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| # ? Jun 13, 2024 06:44 |
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A lot of the Garlean citizens realize that the Eorzean Alliance is providing them supplies and support out of charity, but they're spooked by the idea that talking out of turn or complaining about their situation might cause them to get reduced support when they feel like they can't even get a leg to stand on without it. And now they're stomping in and demanding that the tower that caused people to turn into literal monsters right in front of them to be turned back on? If they say no are they just gonna bail? Vrtra's trade deal proposition at least lets them have some control back on their very existence.
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May 24, 2023 20:42
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:For every reason an Eorzean has to detest the Garleans, the Garleans have more to detest them. They haven't been living in a barren icy shithole because the three continents were welcome hosts. Plus the last couple generations were ripe with propaganda. That's not the sort of thing that disappears overnight. This isn't true, the Eorzeans had nothing to do with the Garleans being driven from Locus Amoenus.
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May 24, 2023 20:44
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Pretty convenient that we brought along someone who can just make an international trade agreement up on the spot
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May 24, 2023 20:45
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that's storytelling, baby
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May 24, 2023 20:50
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sweet geek swag posted:This isn't true, the Eorzeans had nothing to do with the Garleans being driven from Locus Amoenus. Not Eorzea specifically but their 1000 year history has been outsiders coming into their home and taking their stuff.
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May 24, 2023 20:56
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:That being said, I feel like the Garleans are doing a lot of pissing and moaning for people who witnessed firsthand how their self-serving imperialistic ideals led to the self-destruction of their own country. How many of them realize that though? It's one thing to say "we tore ourselves apart in a civil war" and another to extend that into the larger context of the flaws in their system. That sort of self-reflection is a luxury that comes with full bellies and warm beds.
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May 24, 2023 21:01
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:For every reason an Eorzean has to detest the Garleans, the Garleans have more to detest them. They haven't been living in a barren icy shithole because the three continents were welcome hosts. Plus the last couple generations were ripe with propaganda. That's not the sort of thing that disappears overnight. Look, I get it. On the other hand, I'm the savior of the galaxy, give me the keys to the spooky building
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May 24, 2023 21:05
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Valentin posted:also he's sad ancient alphinaud so you have to be nice to him  Yeahhhh. The similarities have been at the forefront of my mind during the whole raid tier. Seeing that he was once an idealistic kid very similar to the one we've been taking care of and getting attached to since Heavensward makes the tragedy of his pursuit of his duty hit a bit closer to home.How heavy-handed that feels? Well, I thought it added something, though I imagine people who are less sympathetic to Alphinaud and/or sensitive about this style of invoking empathy feel otherwise.  Vitamean posted:A lot of the Garlean citizens realize that the Eorzean Alliance is providing them supplies and support out of charity, but they're spooked by the idea that talking out of turn or complaining about their situation might cause them to get reduced support when they feel like they can't even get a leg to stand on without it. And now they're stomping in and demanding that the tower that caused people to turn into literal monsters right in front of them to be turned back on? If they say no are they just gonna bail? I was a little surprised that was resolved as neatly as it was, Vritra's presence aside. I feel like, in real life, there'd be no amount of good-faith bargaining you could do to convince a traumatized people that turning the terrifying mind control tower back on is a safe and legitimate thing to do, for Voidsent Reasons--when the much simpler explanation (it's being turned back on to do more mind control stuff) feeds directly into their fears. Even suggesting it might erode trust.
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May 24, 2023 21:15
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Thr first person I talked to at the beginning of that quest was the younger person who simply ran away screaming at the very thought of the idea. So while I was playing through it, seeing the one politician react stubbornly and most everyone else react fearfully, I just kept thinking that no matter what deal gets struck or who all is okay with the idea reactivating that tower is going to inescapably trigger some ptsd. I was also thinking that Varshahn could've gone through with that trade deal without the conditions about the tower and honestly why is that thing not already being dismantled so the Garleans could have a regular palace to use for shelter and a bunch of spare machinery parts. But also we needed story reasons to convince people to let us use the tower and it's been a very very short amount of time in game since all of that went down, a couple weeks at most, which is not enough time for a recently broken nation to put together the effort to dismantle a gigantic doom tower. Overall I really liked the Garlean section and I think it would be super cool to see that whole ruined city get a reconstruction effort, but thats probably going to take a while. It would also be neat if, going forward, we see a lot more Garlean tech spread to other cities and corners of the world and little bits of the nations they trade with have a prescence in a restored Garlean capitol. Which is all probably even further off than a general restoration effort. FunkyFjord fucked around with this message at 21:29 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 21:26
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Yeah the unbelievable thing isn't that they'd stand in the way of more spooky building fun but that'd ever be okay with it given the trauma. Especially since even at face value "We need to shoot another magic laser from the brainwash building at the moon to stop voidsent. Please don't ask for details about exactly how that will do the job" is a hard sell.
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May 24, 2023 21:27
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Not Eorzea specifically but their 1000 year history has been outsiders coming into their home and taking their stuff. My point is that the Garleans' problems with the Eorzeans specifically aren't really based in any particular facts, they are just a byproduct of the Garleans' racism. This is not to dismiss the historic plight of the Garleans, but to point out that at a certain point they stopped seeing any distinction between any foreigners. The reality is that the Garleans do not have any legitimate grievances against the Eorzeans, but the the Eorzeans have plenty against the Garleans. This really doesn't mean a whole lot other than that you can’t fully trust the Garleans when they say they have grievances, because they don't always take the time to distinguish between people who have wronged them and people who haven't.
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May 24, 2023 21:41
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It's honestly pretty neat to see the game grapple with the idea that the Garleans, even at their most repentant, are not going to be "perfect victims" (not that they're exactly victims but that's the closest analogy), and that Eorzea is going to have to work hard if they want to keep the moral high ground while also having the upper hand. Maybe if they redecorated the place to have fewer spikes? I forget what it looked like when it was just the Imperial Palace but surely the "Important Cultural History" part of the building is less than 10% of the mass of the Tower of Babil.
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May 24, 2023 21:43
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The only part that really felt more convenient than usual was the senator guy who just so happened to need our help after walking directly into a warmachina, after claiming the warmachina were definitely not a threat. Sure, he said that our gesture didn't sway him at all and it was probably far more to do with the plea of his countryman, but still it felt a bit trite.
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May 24, 2023 21:45
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Rand Brittain posted:It's honestly pretty neat to see the game grapple with the idea that the Garleans, even at their most repentant, are not going to be "perfect victims" (not that they're exactly victims but that's the closest analogy), and that Eorzea is going to have to work hard if they want to keep the moral high ground while also having the upper hand. Going "actually the entire enormous misshapen structure built through mind controlled slave labor is ALL an important piece of our culture and history, even if it's 100x the size it was six months ago, foreigners get out" is pretty fitting for, you know, an empire.
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May 24, 2023 21:48
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Yeah that was pretty silly. It makes sense for the palace its built on top of but not the mind control doom tower itself. Also agreed about changing the guys mind super quick by saving him from his own hubris. As always we had to go kill something in order to solve the situation.
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May 24, 2023 22:01
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I try to cut the Garlean civilians a lot of slack because they are not aware of even a fraction of the information that we're privy to as players, or even as the WoL. The leaders of nations aren't feeling obligated to explain themselves to Jeff the Turnip Farmer about why we need to reactivate the haunted tower that turned your wife and neighbors into shrieking monstrosities.
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May 24, 2023 22:19
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Having our friend the benevolent dragon king with us is extreme plot convenience, but also the benevolent dragon king wanting to save his sister is half the emotional crux of this story so he kinda has to be there regardless. I can forgive it. It does make me wonder what the range on a dragon eye is though.
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May 24, 2023 22:26
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honestly it felt like when they were writing 6.4 someone piped up with "won't the garleans have a problem with turning on their space laser tower again?" and proceeded to write three quests about how to solve it as bluntly as possible. it's.... not my favorite part of the patch, even if I can get what they were going for.
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May 24, 2023 22:28
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hopeandjoy posted:Having our friend the benevolent dragon king with us is extreme plot convenience, but also the benevolent dragon king wanting to save his sister is half the emotional crux of this story so he kinda has to be there regardless. I can forgive it. I guess it's infinite (shards notwhistanding) since dragon eyes have a fuckton of aether and seem to carry their essence (nidhogg could possess Estinien, even if as akin to a wraith) The true question is, what happens to the dragon body? Do they experience both their body and their eye at the same time? Does Vritra sleep when RPing as Varshaan? Are Vritra and Varshaan actually different beings on a technicallity?
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May 24, 2023 22:32
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:I guess it's infinite (shards notwhistanding) since dragon eyes have a fuckton of aether and seem to carry their essence (nidhogg could possess Estinien, even if as akin to a wraith) I seem to recall Varshahn sort of freezing up when Vrtra first sensed his sister's presence again, though I'm unsure if that was merely shock or if Vrtra was distracted enough that the homunculus shut down.
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May 24, 2023 22:37
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:I guess it's infinite (shards notwhistanding) since dragon eyes have a fuckton of aether and seem to carry their essence (nidhogg could possess Estinien, even if as akin to a wraith) Vrtra talks about how his Vrtra self will be relatively dormant while he's searching for his sister as Varshahn, so I think he only has so much focus to split between the two selves. As much as he's wise and powerful beyond the measure of mortals, he's still not a god or omniscient.
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May 24, 2023 22:41
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Okay, I forgot that part then in the many months since EW and the patches 
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May 24, 2023 22:44
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Vitamean posted:honestly it felt like when they were writing 6.4 someone piped up with "won't the garleans have a problem with turning on their space laser tower again?" and proceeded to write three quests about how to solve it as bluntly as possible. it's.... not my favorite part of the patch, even if I can get what they were going for. There's a lot of the 6.4 MSQ that's essentially just worldbuilding. "Where were the Sharlayans going to get the fuel for the Ragnarok" is not exactly a pressing lore question, but whatever, now its answered and we got a very pretty dungeon out of it. I don't think the Endwalker patch quests are going to be remembered as fondly as like the Heavensward or Stormblood patches, but they've been fine. So much of it is just CBU3 taking a victory lap and you know what, they deserve it.
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May 24, 2023 22:46
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1stGear posted:I don't think the Endwalker patch quests are going to be remembered as fondly as like the Heavensward or Stormblood patches, but they've been fine. So much of it is just CBU3 taking a victory lap and you know what, they deserve it. "Well, we've finally wrapped up the plot we've been building since A Realm Reborn. Now what?" "...Final Fantasy 4 homage?" "Final Fantasy 4 homage."
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May 24, 2023 22:48
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so much has changed since we prayed and summoned a whale to fly us to the moon
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May 24, 2023 22:53
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Honestly I see this series as a lot like the 2.x series, which I have fond memories of - it's there to do world building, establish a new status quo and explore elements of the setting when everything isn't on fire.
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May 24, 2023 23:00
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I love that Azdaja sees Estinien and immediately compares him to Niddhogg.
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May 24, 2023 23:24
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PlasticAutomaton posted:I love that Azdaja sees Estinien and immediately compares him to Niddhogg. I love that apparently it's not that Niddhogg is typical for dragons in being rude, he was just That Guy in life too even among his peers.
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May 24, 2023 23:29
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Macaluso posted:I'm currently in the Garlamald segment. And like, I get what they're tying to do storywise here, but I just don't feel enough sympathy for the Garleans to not just be like "I don't care if some of these people get spooked, I saved the universe, let me do the thing". This is one of those weird story things that doesn't really work for me personally. Also this dipshit i'm talking to now "That tower is culturally significant to us, I've had enough!" blah blah shut the gently caress up. Zero must be absolutely fed up with this nonsense This is why the Garlean section was the lowest point of 6.4 for me. I like that one of the messages of FFXIV is to be kind to others, to talk with other people and try to come to a mutual understanding. But boy, sometimes the characters are too nice. Or maybe too lawful? Oh, you want the aether? You have to ask permission. Oh, you want to use the tower? You have to ask permission. My comrades and I saved the world!
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May 24, 2023 23:58
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1stGear posted:I don't think the Endwalker patch quests are going to be remembered as fondly as like the Heavensward or Stormblood patches, but they've been fine. So much of it is just CBU3 taking a victory lap and you know what, they deserve it. It's also that EW launched with the end of the story as part of it, rather than using the patches to finish it up. Now the patch quests can wrap up some loose ends, do some lighter stuff and meander while dropping hints, without the big story looming
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May 24, 2023 23:59
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The fishing descriptions are fun. The Arrowhead squid having razor-sharp fins when dried means there should totally be a dried Arrowhead weapon for dragoons or bards.quote:In eras past, squid of this sort were used as lethal projectiles. The Selkie puffer is literally a 'hey, remember crystal chronicles selkies? they might or might not exist in Eorzea'. quote:The Fury's Aegis
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May 25, 2023 00:04
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some real Curb Your Enthusiasm moments from lahabrea
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May 25, 2023 00:12
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I loved the Garlean section, because it was very directly grappling with exactly the stuff I find most interesting about the Garleans; that even after losing, they're prideful and distrustful as poo poo, but need help. They need to learn how to accept help to get back on their own two feet, and everyone else also has to learn not to be complete assholes to them in treat them in the way they both deserve and need. Going over their heads to go 'yeah we're gonna reactivate your tower of Complex National Trauma, you don't get a say in it because we're stronger than you now, gently caress you' is exactly the sort of petty vengeance and ill treatment you all think I want from the Ancients, and ultimately isn't going to help one bit; they deserve a say in it, and we deserve to see that their answer is going to be a well-founded 'no' if we don't make it worthwhile. I do think that they sort of missed a beat with their conclusion, though; tying it up in the trade deal was a good move and solution, but it doesn't actually solve the whole 'most of Garlemald has pretty justifiable PTSD about this thing' part. I don't think it would've taken too much to resolve; maybe have some lines about remodeling it to take new ownership, and some either saying 'this next reactivation of the Tower is a sign of new hope for our people' or, going the other way, 'we recognize people won't want to look at this' and maybe bring the radios back in. Valentin posted:also he's sad ancient alphinaud so you have to be nice to him I assure you, I gave Alphinaud several expansions' worth of poo poo. I was going to say that I think I only stopped in Shadowbringers, but I'm pretty sure my dislike of him morphed into a different, Scions-wide dislike of him in Shadowbringers before gradually fading in the patches.
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May 25, 2023 00:41
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Bloody Emissary posted:
yeah they talked at the time of 5.3 about drawing intentional but unstated parallels between elidibus and a character people already liked to get you to sympathize with him more easily, and i think making him the youngest of the unsundered "party" with a bit of a case of hero worship who is torn between the obligation he feels to the greater good and his simple desire for his friends to be okay worked really well and very quickly. https://twitter.com/zucchini_loaf/status/1457450069171400705?lang=en
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May 25, 2023 00:54
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Ither posted:This is why the Garlean section was the lowest point of 6.4 for me. The Sharlayan one is especially funny cause they literally walk up to you and are like "yes of course we give you permission, you literally saved the universe"
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May 25, 2023 01:05
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Macaluso posted:The Sharlayan one is especially funny cause they literally walk up to you and are like "yes of course we give you permission, you literally saved the universe" "Maaaaybe do something about the spooky Ancient research facility floating around the inside of the planet first? No? Oh okay, I'm sure you'll get to it eventually."
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May 25, 2023 01:08
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Macaluso posted:The Sharlayan one is especially funny cause they literally walk up to you and are like "yes of course we give you permission, you literally saved the universe"
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May 25, 2023 01:48
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Macaluso posted:The Sharlayan one is especially funny cause they literally walk up to you and are like "yes of course we give you permission, you literally saved the universe" I think this is a really important thing to have in the exact same content load as the Garlean story, because it shows such a clear contrast of how people respond to us. Sharlayan likes us, gets us, and has something of a debt of gratitude, so asking them for help takes barely any time at all and they just trust that it's for a good reason. But the Garleans? The Garleans loving hate us, don't have a history of trust with us, don't really see us as saviors (or even much of a big help in the first place) and want nothing more than to reach a point where everyone stops getting all up in their business. Of course they throw up barriers; we've done barely anything to earn the trust required for them to leave the door unlocked for us.
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May 25, 2023 01:57
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Bloody Pom posted:"Maaaaybe do something about the spooky Ancient research facility floating around the inside of the planet first? No? Oh okay, I'm sure you'll get to it eventually." Didn't say that to me, because I already took care of it. 
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