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Effectronica posted:okay, but complaints about white people wearing kimono largely come from j-a people, who are much more culturally vulnerable than japan is Nah, neither group really owns every japan-influenced culture. Weeabooism has long since taken on its own self-sustaining culture. Theyre certainly welcome to mercilessly mock the latter though
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Mar 25, 2015 17:53
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Popular Thug Drink posted:"You kids! What did I tell you about baptizing each other in my rain barrel! Get out of h- no! No, don't you dare hold a convention to establish the truth of biblical literalism! Don't you dare split, I don't need two of you little shits running around! Don't you DARE advocate salvation through grace on my lawn! I know your father!" Is this a Scofield Bible I found under your bed? Look at me. Who gave this to you? Was it Nathan? It was Nathan wasn't it? I've seen him hanging around on the corner, cross referencing Elijah with Revelation. You know what happens to kids like that? They gain 200 pounds, marry a woman who's 75% bouffant, and get a cable access show at two in the morning. You want to end up married to someone name Lurlene-Marie? Huh?
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Mar 25, 2015 17:53
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Powercrazy posted:What if the native children decide that religion is a crutch for the weak minded after reading some Dawkins and therefore view Christianity in contempt as well as their crazy Grand Pa's animal spirits. Is that ok, or would they be appropriating your culture? JeffersonClay posted:So native people should only throw off the shackles of religion once enough white people have done the same? How egalitarian. Okay, so we've got both of you under "bitter New Atheist", would you like to provide any more identifying information? I do like how the leftist and the guy who hates leftism are coming together against the super-villain who suggests people should be able to define themselves with minimal cultural imposition. I clearly need an outfit and a codename.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:53
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I think you're confusing the presence of thousands year old cultures with people acutely, in the present moment, being a fool. It's an easy mistake to make, so I understand your confusion. Such is modern life. I can understand depending on your culture once upon a time, when information from around the world wasn't shoved down your throat 24/7 but I wouldn't put much faith in it now. We aren't as isolated as we used to be, so we change more.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:54
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OwlFancier posted:Such is modern life. I can understand depending on your culture once upon a time, when information from around the world wasn't shoved down your throat 24/7 but I wouldn't put much faith in it now. We aren't as isolated as we used to be, so we change more. One would think that if information was so free flowing, that some of these people would research whatever the hell they were getting into instead of just going by dumb stereotypes.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:57
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Effectronica posted:I do like how the leftist and the guy who hates leftism are coming together against the super-villain who suggests people should be able to define themselves with minimal cultural imposition. I clearly need an outfit and a codename. So wait, youre actually against dictating to people what culture they are allowed to partake in, or have I lost your message amidst the snark
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Mar 25, 2015 17:59
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OwlFancier posted:Such is modern life. I can understand depending on your culture once upon a time, when information from around the world wasn't shoved down your throat 24/7 but I wouldn't put much faith in it now. We aren't as isolated as we used to be, so we change more. haha literally Dehumanize Yourself And Face To Bloodshed, nice! blackguy32 posted:One would think that if information was so free flowing, that some of these people would research whatever the hell they were getting into instead of just going by dumb stereotypes. No no, the advantage of limitless information is the freedom to avoid using it to knowledgeable and constructive ends.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:59
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What about cultural appropriation as part of the Artistic process? Should we stop listening to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado?/ What about fantasy novels like Bridge of Birds or The Wind-up Girl? After a certain point this seems like an attempt to extend notions of copyright out to whole cultures.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:59
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blackguy32 posted:One would think that if information was so free flowing, that some of these people would research whatever the hell they were getting into instead of just going by dumb stereotypes. If that were true, then nobody would ever enlist in the military. (I am a veteran.) To be fair, nobody really has the attention span to research all of the really boring stuff that we do, at least not before signing the contract. Jakcson fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What about cultural appropriation as part of the Artistic process? Should we stop listening to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado?/ What about fantasy novels like Bridge of Birds or The Wind-up Girl? I think the most coherent argument on this front is that when corporate sellouts do it, its bad. E: though some of the more extreme positions seem to wrap around, horseshoe style, to "the races shall not mix" A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:01
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blackguy32 posted:One would think that if information was so free flowing, that some of these people would research whatever the hell they were getting into instead of just going by dumb stereotypes. Information could be pouring in in torrents but I don't think it would much help the human attention span. We're not especially well suited to dealing with the volume of information we have access to, so you're probably going to be stuck with crappy knock offs for the foreseeable future. At least until everyone ends up part of some weird homogenous porridge culture made up of poorly understood and bastardised ideas from all over the place.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What about cultural appropriation as part of the Artistic process? Should we stop listening to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado?/ What about fantasy novels like Bridge of Birds or The Wind-up Girl? Even at their worst, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones weren't prancing about in blackface. For it to be appropriation, you'd have to regard Mississippi blues as the inferior, derivative product which is just a knockoff of the highly innovative white British teenagers of the 1950s. It's very difficult to artisitcally borrow while also ignoring or downplaying the influence of the person you borrowed from. It would be just as strange to claim that academic citation is cultural appropriation. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:02
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Literally half of page 5 of this thread is " social justice warriors!"As I posted earlier, white people really hate the concept of cultural appropriation because they might have to feel bad. Oddly enough, the folks who complain about SJW's seem to have no problem pretending to get mad about the appropriation that the dreaded ~tumblerites~ do of social justice language.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:05
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A big flaming stink posted:So wait, youre actually against dictating to people what culture they are allowed to partake in, or have I lost your message amidst the snark I don't know how you could look at the posts where I repeatedly say that what is bad about CA is that it impairs people's ability to use and define their own culture, and come to this sort of conclusion. It's baffling. Hieronymous Alloy posted:What about cultural appropriation as part of the Artistic process? Should we stop listening to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado?/ What about fantasy novels like Bridge of Birds or The Wind-up Girl? Nobody said that you should immediately throw away anything that was appropriated. Meanwhile, the only people who would say that Bridge of Birds, for example, is a priori appropriation, are people insisting that cultural appropriation is nonsense. Nobody arguing that CA is a meaningful thing has said that it's the only way to interact with other cultures.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:06
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Even at their worst, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones weren't prancing about in blackface. What if you were to consider Metallica's Master of Puppets as the inferior, derivative product of The Beatles' Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club? 
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Mar 25, 2015 18:06
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so we've got both of you under "bitter New Atheist", would you like to provide any more identifying information? "Minimal cultural imposition," I'm sure this is a rigorously defined position that no one could possibly disagree with unless they are "bitter" or something.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:07
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so we've got both of you under "bitter New Atheist", would you like to provide any more identifying information? Actually you suggested that people should be able to define the cultural identity of their children with minimal interference. Is Marx culturally destructive because his work encourages people to reject religion? Yes, and his work is all the better for it because some elements of culture should be destroyed.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:08
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Even at their worst, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones weren't prancing about in blackface. Well, I'm reasonably sure that zeppelin got sued over stealing from howling wolf, so that's one way to denigrate the prior source: simply take it and PSS it off as your own original work.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:09
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Powercrazy posted:"Minimal cultural imposition," I'm sure this is a rigorously defined position that no one could possibly disagree with unless they are "bitter" or something. I realize that someone who views the world through the lens of a cheesy sci-fi movie from 1999 might not understand this, but rigid definitions are pretty easy to break and fall apart, and then you've got people like you cheering at the extermination of Santeria because there's one fewer religion.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:09
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Powercrazy posted:"Minimal cultural imposition," I'm sure this is a rigorously defined position that no one could possibly disagree with unless they are "bitter" or something. Why yes this is basically physics he'll post his mathematical proofs later in the thread.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:10
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JeffersonClay posted:Actually you suggested that people should be able to define the cultural identity of their children with minimal interference. Is Marx culturally destructive because his work encourages people to reject religion? Yes, and his work is all the better for it because some elements of culture should be destroyed. Agreed. You, for example-
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Mar 25, 2015 18:10
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The Insect Court posted:Wow, I never knew those undocumented Guatemalans working the kitchen over at the local Chinese take-out place were cultural appropriators. Gonna put on my black bandana, fill up a couple molotov cocktails, and go let those Enemies of the People know how "problematic" their cultural appropriation is. God drat you are a dipshit. The Guatemalan laborers do not own the means of production and receive nothing but an illegally low wage, and the Japanese were culturally colonized by China for centuries in the first millennium AD.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:11
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Well, I'm reasonably sure that zeppelin got sued over stealing from howling wolf, so that's one way to denigrate the prior source: simply take it and PSS it off as your own original work. Yes, but that's an actual plagiarization which is prosecutable by law. You can't copyright a sound, or a method of doing things. But if Jimmy Page passed himself off as a authentic bluesman from Tupelo...
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Mar 25, 2015 18:11
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Effectronica posted:I don't know how you could look at the posts where I repeatedly say that what is bad about CA is that it impairs people's ability to use and define their own culture, and come to this sort of conclusion. It's baffling. Ok need to work on my snark parsing, got it. Zeitgueist posted:Literally half of page 5 of this thread is " Zeit I feel like youre the only guy that keeps using that term. Kind of appropriative of shitpost culture
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Mar 25, 2015 18:11
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Actually quite a bit of this page is just people denying that cultural appropriation can't be meaningfully defined in their eyes therefore, nobody should have to pay attention to it at all despite there being legions and legions of literature on the subject with the information that is so freeflowing. OwlFancier posted:Information could be pouring in in torrents but I don't think it would much help the human attention span. We're not especially well suited to dealing with the volume of information we have access to, so you're probably going to be stuck with crappy knock offs for the foreseeable future. At least until everyone ends up part of some weird homogenous porridge culture made up of poorly understood and bastardised ideas from all over the place. So basically, the people appropriating are just lazy. Got it. I mean Katy Perry had people put together an elaborate show but they didn't have the time to look and see that stereotypes aren't the way to appreciate Japanese culture. A big flaming stink posted:I think the most coherent argument on this front is that when corporate sellouts do it, its bad. Also, holy poo poo, this is a huge rear end strawman. All people are asking for is for others to not use people's cultures as props to increase your own cred, understand the context and significance of a cultural item, and not be ignorant. But instead of actually researching some of these things and understanding where people are coming from, all anyone is doing is sticking their fingers in their ears and saying, "well they truly can't claim ownership to it!" instead of doing the sensible thing and simply being respectful and mindful. Some people think it is the worse thing to be told that they can't do a certain thing. But its kind of amazing to me how people react when the shoe is on the other foot, because it seems that white people flip the gently caress out about being limited in society. It's almost as if they are experiencing a minor part of what minorities go through... blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:17
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blackguy32 posted:So basically, the people appropriating are just lazy. Got it. I mean Katy Perry had people put together an elaborate show but they didn't have the time to look and see that stereotypes aren't the way to appreciate Japanese culture. If you're getting paid a fortune for it and/or enjoy doing it, it isn't work. It is actually harder to do things you have no material reason to give a poo poo about and probably don't like doing, which is why people don't do them.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:19
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Effectronica posted:I realize that someone who views the world through the lens of a cheesy sci-fi movie from 1999 might not understand this, but rigid definitions are pretty easy to break and fall apart, and then you've got people like you cheering at the extermination of Santeria because there's one fewer religion. In this case I'm using rigorous as an adjective meaning "thorough." I realize that definitions of words are difficult (and sometimes they change meanings wtf?), but they are one of the fundamental aspects of communication. I'm also not sure why me being aware of dawkins somehow makes me an atheist who lusts for religious death. But back to your claim that you simply want people to define themselves with "Minimal cultural imposition." What amount of imposition is permissible for you? Is a paper bag test required to play or enjoy jazz music? How do you know what cultural cues you are "allowed" to define yourself with?
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Mar 25, 2015 18:22
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OwlFancier posted:If you're getting paid a fortune for it and/or enjoy doing it, it isn't work. You do know that people actually do things that they have no material reason to give a poo poo about and don't like doing because they need money? I mean, it's apparently not a "thing" in the USA, as almost a third of the population has literally "stopped looking for work", even though there are plenty of jobs that need to be done. Maybe that explains why so many jobs are outsourced; perhaps too many Americans think they are "too good" for IT jobs, or something. Powercrazy posted:But back to your claim that you simply want people to define themselves with "Minimal cultural imposition." What amount of imposition is permissible for you? Is a paper bag test required to play or enjoy jazz music? Yes. I think that only people with a certain percentage of "white" DNA should be allowed to enjoy and/or partake in African-American culture. After a certain percentage point, it becomes dangerously close to racism. Jakcson fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:25
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Jakcson posted:I mean, it's apparently a "thing" in the USA, as almost a third of the population has literally "stopped looking for work", even though there are plenty of jobs that need to be done. Maybe that explains why so many jobs are outsourced; perhaps too many Americans think they are "too good" for IT jobs, or something. Haha, oh wow
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Mar 25, 2015 18:26
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Powercrazy posted:In this case I'm using rigorous as an adjective meaning "thorough." I realize that definitions of words are difficult (and sometimes they change meanings wtf?), but they are one of the fundamental aspects of communication. I'm also not sure why me being aware of dawkins somehow makes me an atheist who lusts for religious death. Okay, it's quite simple. Take this hammer, and repeatedly hit your right hand with it until all the bones are broken. Through the pain, you should understand. If not, please find someone to assist you in doing this to your left hand.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:26
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Jakcson posted:You do know that people actually do things that they have no material reason to give a poo poo about and don't like doing because they need money? Needing money would seem to be almost the platonic ideal of a material reason? Essentially, Katy Perry isn't paid to give a drat about other cultures and probably isn't very inclined to do so out of the goodness of her heart, so she doesn't.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:27
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paranoid randroid posted:Haha, oh wow I like to have fun on the forums. 
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Mar 25, 2015 18:29
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OwlFancier posted:Needing money would seem to be almost the platonic ideal of a material reason? So basically she is the very definition of cultural appropriation. "Hey this stuff looks cool, and if anyone gets mad about me taking it out of context or promoting stereotypes? gently caress them."
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Mar 25, 2015 18:32
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blackguy32 posted:So basically she is the very definition of cultural appropriation. "Hey this stuff looks cool, and if anyone gets mad about me taking it out of context or promoting stereotypes? gently caress them." I guess? Though I imagine she and most other famous people do that about almost everything, not just other cultures. What I'm saying is eat the rich.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:33
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Jakcson posted:You do know that people actually do things that they have no material reason to give a poo poo about and don't like doing because they need money? Please don't appropriate conservative culture.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:34
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OwlFancier posted:I guess? Though I imagine she and most other famous people do that about almost everything, not just other cultures. No, I am pretty sure that there are plenty of artists out there that don't stupid poo poo like Katy Perry does. Irregardless, might doesn't make it right.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:35
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blackguy32 posted:No, I am pretty sure that there are plenty of artists out there that don't stupid poo poo like Katy Perry does. Irregardless, might doesn't make it right. I will grant you both that there are few performers more vapid and idiotic than Katy Perry, and that it isn't a good thing that it happens, but I would probably also define it more as a class problem than a specifically cultural or racial one.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:37
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Effectronica posted:Okay, it's quite simple. Take this hammer, and repeatedly hit your right hand with it until all the bones are broken. Through the pain, you should understand. If not, please find someone to assist you in doing this to your left hand. Perhaps we could use the bludgeon you've fashioned and called Cultural Appropriation to do the deed so that we don't appropriate the middle eastern carpenters tool?
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Mar 25, 2015 18:41
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Powercrazy posted:Perhaps we could use the bludgeon you've fashioned and called Cultural Appropriation to do the deed? Look, you're convinced that there's a conspiracy afoot to prevent you from listening to Miles Davis, and I sure as hell can't convince you otherwise rationally, so...
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Mar 25, 2015 18:42
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What about cultural appropriation as part of the Artistic process? Should we stop listening to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado?/ What about fantasy novels like Bridge of Birds or The Wind-up Girl? you should stop listening to the beatles because they make bad music
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Mar 25, 2015 18:44
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