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Effectronica posted:I did not say that that was a celebration of V-J day, rear end in a top hat. I specifically said "around V-J day" to distance the two. Whoops. Not enough distance between the two for me to pick up on. I think you're pointing to a handful of people on the internet and extrapolating dangerously far from there, though, if you think there are servicemen and -women stationed in Okinawa who would celebrate the bombings. Which I think was the cause of this whole kerfuffle.
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Apr 8, 2015 16:14
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Grundulum posted:Whoops. Not enough distance between the two for me to pick up on. I think you're pointing to a handful of people on the internet and extrapolating dangerously far from there, though, if you think there are servicemen and -women stationed in Okinawa who would celebrate the bombings. Which I think was the cause of this whole kerfuffle. I think that if it's more prevalent than one-tenth of a percent of Americans (and given that there are going to be more people who think it than express it openly, and that you can find such sentiments whenever Hiroshima and Nagasaki come up) than there's still over a hundred American DOD personnel and dependents in Japan who believe that, who are of course disproportionately on Okinawa. Now, it's possible that this is entirely cordoned off within their minds and nobody can pick up on this externally, but it's not likely. And if there's one percent, that's a thousand, and two percent, two thousand. These are all tiny minorities, but consider how many people are convinced that the French hate the United States based on similarly small numbers of French people. Of course, the US Armed Forces may somehow select against this kind of belief, or against racism more generally, and that would explode this completely. But it'd be pretty hard to prove and it's difficult to see how they could.
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Apr 8, 2015 16:28
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Effectronica posted:But it'd be pretty hard to prove
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Apr 8, 2015 16:32
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Rent-A-Cop posted:This hasn't stopped your "American Hiroshima celebrations" theory. The only thing you've offered against it is that people are always sarcastic when they talk about how great dropping the bombs was, along with flailing about how dare you suggest that Americans, God's chosen people, might sometimes believe abhorrent things or express these abhorrent beliefs.
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Apr 8, 2015 16:35
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Effectronica posted:The only thing you've offered against it is
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Apr 8, 2015 16:37
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I'm just staggering under the weight of the evidence you've offered for it. I hope you're willing to put the same amount of disdain for anyone using the phrase "common sense", because otherwise I might suspect that you're lying.
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Apr 8, 2015 16:43
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Effectronica posted:I hope you're willing to put the same amount of disdain for anyone using the phrase "common sense"
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Apr 8, 2015 16:54
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It's like two giant bombs of retweets fall every single year.
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Apr 8, 2015 20:44
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I find the depiction of the Japanese as a poor, persecuted indigenous people, powerless in the face of the Western emperial powers just bizarre. The Japanese had imperial ambitions every bit as wide-ranging and brutal as any European power, and the US military bases are the direct result of those. The Japanese aren't underdogs in any way, just because they aren't white. I think that if someone in China or Korea read this thread they'd think it was insane. I suppose if you want to separate out the Okinawans as a distinct group you might have a point, but that would clearly be Japan's problem, not America's.
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Apr 8, 2015 22:39
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Effectronica you are really outing yourself as an incredibly egotistical American. For some reason it is beyond your ability to imagine the US as not the central player in any conflict, and so obviously the case of Okinawa is not a matter of the central Japanese government as being undemocratic or pushing an onerous burden on an ethnic minority but yet another case of evil imperialism by the US military. Seriously do you know anything at all about Japan's politics?
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Apr 8, 2015 23:45
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Everyones all like the US doesnt REALLY have so much influence these days and then half of western europe deny airspace to bolivias presidential jet on instant notice at americas whim. I mean effectronica has obvious mental problems but its also not so hard imagining america pressuring the japanese central government in the background on this particular issue.
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Apr 9, 2015 00:05
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Even if it were 100% the Japanese government steamrolling over local concerns and the US were just rolling with whatever, that still wouldn't make it right.
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Apr 9, 2015 00:39
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Zo posted:I mean effectronica has obvious mental problems but its also not so hard imagining america pressuring the japanese central government in the background on this particular issue. VitalSigns posted:Even if it were 100% the Japanese government steamrolling over local concerns and the US were just rolling with whatever, that still wouldn't make it right.
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Apr 9, 2015 00:42
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Local concerns are not always justified. Right.
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Apr 9, 2015 01:03
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VitalSigns posted:Even if it were 100% the Japanese government steamrolling over local concerns and the US were just rolling with whatever, that still wouldn't make it right. The fact that the protesters are focused on stopping the construction of Henko, which will alleviate pretty much all of the reasons presented that these bases are bad, makes me feel like their concerns probably shouldn't even be taken at face value.
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Apr 9, 2015 01:15
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As a reminder, and as recorded on the first page, we literally had to explain to Chomskyan what "NIMBY" meant. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 9, 2015 03:13
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Comrade Fakename posted:I find the depiction of the Japanese as a poor, persecuted indigenous people, powerless in the face of the Western emperial powers just bizarre. The Japanese had imperial ambitions every bit as wide-ranging and brutal as any European power, and the US military bases are the direct result of those. The Japanese aren't underdogs in any way, just because they aren't white. I think that if someone in China or Korea read this thread they'd think it was insane. That's the reason not a shred of actual evidence has been presented and all that can be offered is vague accusations of racism.
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Apr 9, 2015 05:05
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Itt a bunch of sensitive Sallys wringing thier hands over land that was conquered from a fascist government 70 years ago
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Apr 9, 2015 08:05
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His Purple Majesty posted:Itt a bunch of sensitive Sallys wringing thier hands over land that was conquered from a fascist government 70 years ago It's good that now that land is under the control of a power fascists couldn't have dreamt of.
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Apr 9, 2015 09:01
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Governments put pressure on other governments to negotiate. It's one of the most basic reasons for their existence. I'm sure the US government wasn't thrilled with building an expensive new base in Henoko but the Japanese government exerted pressure to move the base in Futenma so that's what's happening. Actually I think the US is probably ecstatic about it, seeing as Japan is building the base and footing the bill on it's behalf. You'd of course know that if you made a habit of being familiar with a situation before commenting on it.
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Apr 9, 2015 10:46
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Chomskyan posted:Actually I think the US is probably ecstatic about it, seeing as Japan is building the base and footing the bill on it's behalf. You'd of course know that if you made a habit of being familiar with a situation before commenting on it. WWJDT (why would japan do that)
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Apr 9, 2015 10:51
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Obviously Japan did it because they have a completely equal relationship with the United States, have a democratic, representative government that's not actually an authoritarian one party state, and decided of their own volition to pursue a military project that's politically impossible given the views of the average Okinawan.
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Apr 9, 2015 11:28
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Chomskyan posted:Obviously Japan did it because they have a completely equal relationship with the United States, have a democratic, representative government that's not actually an authoritarian one party state, and decided of their own volition to pursue a military project that's politically impossible given the views of the average Okinawan. Building a base so I can spend a poo poo ton less on military expenditure sounds like a pretty awesome trade.
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Apr 9, 2015 12:22
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Chiwie posted:Building a base so I can spend a poo poo ton less on military expenditure sounds like a pretty awesome trade.
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Apr 9, 2015 13:49
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Chiwie posted:Building a base so I can spend a poo poo ton less on military expenditure sounds like a pretty awesome trade. You "can" do that anyway. I suppose we're treating the military-industrial complex as valuable, though.
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Apr 9, 2015 14:45
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SedanChair posted:You "can" do that anyway. I suppose we're treating the military-industrial complex as valuable, though. But it is, though.
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Apr 9, 2015 14:50
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If the US military were ever to leave Okinawa the Chinese would immediately Invade, obviously. The only way to achieve security is for everyone to be pointing guns at everyone else, forever. This is not the worldview of a man child
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Apr 9, 2015 14:51
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Mr. Nice! posted:But it is, though. It's of immense value to those who profit from it, and none whatsoever to anybody else.
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Apr 9, 2015 14:53
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Chomskyan posted:If the US military were ever to leave Okinawa the Chinese would immediately Invade, obviously. The only way to achieve security is for everyone to be pointing guns at everyone else, forever. This is not the worldview of a man child The worldview of a man-child is the belief that but for the United States, everyone would live free from racism and sexism and homophobia, in a utopia of Islamo-Marxist splendor. Japanese prejudice against Okinawans is the direct result of American oppression.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:01
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SedanChair posted:It's of immense value to those who profit from it, and none whatsoever to anybody else. Says someone who lives under the blanket of protection provided by it. Is the MIC overgrown and significantly larger than it needs to be? Absolutely. But to act like the military provides nothing of value is just laughable and completely misguided.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:01
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This is a bad thread.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:03
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TheImmigrant posted:The worldview of a man-child is the belief that but for the United States, everyone would live free from racism and sexism and homophobia, in a utopia of Islamo-Marxist splendor. Japanese prejudice against Okinawans is the direct result of American oppression. If our naval bases are intended to stop the Japanese from being racist, they've obviously failed, let's bring the boys home and save a fuckton of money.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:04
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:This is a bad thread. I'm shocked.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:08
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Chomskyan posted:Obviously Japan did it because they have a completely equal relationship with the United States, They do. quote:have a democratic, representative government that's not actually an authoritarian one party state, They do. quote:and decided of their own volition to pursue a military project that's politically impossible given the views of the average Okinawan. Yes, although it is not politically impossible.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:11
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Mr. Nice! posted:Says someone who lives under the blanket of protection provided by it. Is the MIC overgrown and significantly larger than it needs to be? Absolutely. But to act like the military provides nothing of value is just laughable and completely misguided. Yes, sentinels on the wall, civilization itself defended but unable to appreciate the warrior's sacrifice etc. 
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Apr 9, 2015 15:14
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Why should Japan kick the US out? What do they gain from doing so?
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Apr 9, 2015 15:20
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Mr. Nice! posted:Says someone who lives under the blanket of protection provided by it. Is the MIC overgrown and significantly larger than it needs to be? Absolutely. But to act like the military provides nothing of value is just laughable and completely misguided. Aren't imperial ventures halfway across the planet in an area that presents zero credible threat of an invasion of the continental US the very definition of an overgrown and too-large MIC project that does nothing to make Americans safer?
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Apr 9, 2015 15:21
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VitalSigns posted:Aren't imperial ventures halfway across the planet in an area that presents zero credible threat of an invasion of the continental US the very definition of an overgrown and too-large MIC project that does nothing to make Americans safer? Not at all. The US is a maritime nation and always has been. We depend on free trade worldwide in order to survive. The value of naval assets worldwide ensures that the sea lanes of communication stay open and secure. This has been the guiding principle of pretty much all navies since the late 1800s. It has been shown time and again throughout history, that if you don't protect your ships trading worldwide that someone is going to gently caress with them. Having forward deployed forces ensures that trade lanes are always secure and that global commerce doesn't come to a halt. The reason that we are able to maintain what we do is because we have logistic chains and bases worldwide. Now, I'm all for shrinking the army and air force and even consolidating the marines wholly into the navy or army to eliminate redundancies. Can we shrink the military? Absolutely. Do we need a worldwide naval presence supported by forward deployed assets? Absolutely.
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Apr 9, 2015 15:27
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I wish I lived in a world where the U.S. decided it has no strategic interests in the Western Pacific but that desire is so far outside the realm of possibility it isn't really worth dwelling on 
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Apr 9, 2015 15:27
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I wish I lived in a world where the U.S. decided it has no strategic interests in the Western Pacific but that desire is so far outside the realm of possibility it isn't really worth dwelling on Why are you invested in the strategic interests or priorities of the United States?
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Apr 9, 2015 15:29
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