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IMlemon posted:Just got my first win ever vs a 2k (bonus, hes 2k EGF, which is supposed to be stronger than KGS ranks). He also accused me of using a computer/strong player assistance during the game If he's EGF 2k then he should be much higher on kgs. 
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Jun 16, 2014 08:24
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Symbolic Butt posted:
Nice, good job!
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Jun 16, 2014 09:04
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IMlemon posted:Just got my first win ever vs a 2k (bonus, hes 2k EGF, which is supposed to be stronger than KGS ranks). He also accused me of using a computer/strong player assistance during the game Congrats. From the looks of it you played a good game, took your time and played quite solidly. Carry on like that and you'll get your first win against a dan player in no time
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Jun 16, 2014 16:00
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I guess it's that time again, someone mentioned Go somewhere and I got a craving to play again. So far I've probably started and stopped playing at least 5 times over the last 10 years, usually when I get to around 15k and have to actually put in some effort to improve. Let's see if I can actually keep playing this time because even after all this time I still like the game itself. Kind of amazed that KGS is still the place to go (  ) even with all the newer servers that seem to have sprung up over the last few years.
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Jun 16, 2014 16:29
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IMlemon posted:Just got my first win ever vs a 2k (bonus, hes 2k EGF, which is supposed to be stronger than KGS ranks). He also accused me of using a computer/strong player assistance during the game Khel should study this game as an example of why fighting instincts are more important than fuseki theory and pretty shape, and why getting pissed off and trying too hard to punish your opponent's weird moves ("W8 what?! Obviously I must CLAMP!") is going to end badly for you.
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Jun 16, 2014 20:00
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xopods posted:Khel should study this game as an example of why fighting instincts are more important than fuseki theory and pretty shape, and why getting pissed off and trying too hard to punish your opponent's weird moves ("W8 what?! Obviously I must CLAMP!") is going to end badly for you. The answer is d16. I've seen this sequence enough. Thank you for assuming I would thing White 8 is weird. e: Here's another thing though; I like fuseki theory. Why the gently caress should I have to handicap myself during the first 30 moves of the game anyways? And, oh my god, shape isn't important? Let's just fight across the entire board and make bad shape while we're at it. Surely nothing bad will happen because we know 10,000 tesuji, right? I don't do tygem style fight everywhere and whoever wins the whole board semeai first wins the game. I like peaceful games. I like games with large moyos. Woop de doo AdorableStar fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 20:10
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are you mad?
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Jun 16, 2014 20:47
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To be fair Khel's knowledge of the opening works really well for him. I don't think I ever played a game with Khel where I didn't get out of the opening with a disadvantage. On the other side, your biggest weakness is clear to me even now: You answer moves too fast! No wonder you like peaceful games, if the game gets a little complicated there's just no way you'll be able to decently answer every move with just 5 seconds. My suggestion is to force yourself to look at your opponent's clock and keep yourself behind by like 20 seconds. Even if you're playing against IMLemon. 
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Jun 16, 2014 22:35
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uranus posted:are you mad? I'm mad about Go.
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Jun 17, 2014 04:44
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AdorableStar posted:The answer is d16. I've seen this sequence enough. Thank you for assuming I would thing White 8 is weird. Wait, you don't think W8 is weird? W8 is definitely weird. Maybe I've been gone from Go so long that weird is the new normal, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen that played. xopods fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 05:19
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xopods posted:Wait, you don't think W8 is weird? W8 is definitely weird. Maybe I've been gone from Go so long that weird is the new normal, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen that played. I have seen a 1k, prodigious, and some others play it. Here's the sequence I think is usual.  e:Black 9 at d12 has also been played, but prodigious played the one above. AdorableStar fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 05:28
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Regarding fighting in Go, I'd liken it to conditioning for a physical sport. Technique is important, strategy is important, but if you're not in good physical shape, nothing else matters. Everything else can establish an advantage for you, but at some point you're going to have to fight unless your opponent is scared of you or scared of fighting in general. And when fighting breaks out, one bad move can undo any positional advantage you had. Go is not ballet, it's war.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:30
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AdorableStar posted:I have seen a 1k, prodigious, and some others play it. Here's the sequence I think is usual. That's very much not normal. B1 and B7 aren't doing anything, and without support in place, B3 and B9 are a liability because they're heavy. This is a good result for White. I don't like B5 to begin with, but assuming you've played that and White responds with W6, this seems much better for B7 to me: http://eidogo.com/#2hk1KFcuE xopods fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 05:32
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xopods posted:That's very much not normal. B1 and B7 aren't doing anything, and without support in place, B3 and B9 are a liability because they're heavy. This is a good result for White. Maybe ask some actual dans about it? In this game I thought with k17 my group on the right needed s17 (No, that's only if k17 was at m17), so I played that and Prod took a large knight's enclosure at c7 which makes his two stones seem better. 
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Jun 17, 2014 05:36
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AdorableStar posted:Maybe ask some actual dans about it? You think I'm lying about my rank?
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Jun 17, 2014 05:38
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xopods posted:You think I'm lying about my rank? Okay, let me rephrase it. "Maybe consult some other people who are actual dans about it." is what I meant.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:39
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AdorableStar posted:Okay, let me rephrase it. "Maybe consult some other people who are actual dans about it." is what I meant. When I'm not sure about something, I say I'm not sure about it. The reason I'm saying the result you've shown is not even is because it's not even. I don't need to consult anyone else to feel confident saying so. Black won the day in the top left in the game you're showing. I think White could have done better pulling back instead of sagari as in the variation I showed, but making that weird jump along the top side instead of responding to the contact move is not normal and probably bad to begin with.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:41
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EDIT: Hmm, I see that jump is in fact a new innovation. One sec.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:45
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Here, on Sensei's, they've added that jump. http://senseis.xmp.net/?34PointHighApproachOneSpaceLowPincer33Attachment (Scroll down to Two-Point Jump) It seems to be a Tygem "thing." The kick of W8 doesn't seem to be covered though. Given that the game result is bad for Black, the Tygem psychos must have something better than the natural stand of B9 in response. I need to sleep now, I'll look at this more in the morning. I stand by the fact that the two-space jump is weird, though. It might not be bad, but bad and weird are two different things... it's definitely not orthodox.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:52
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It's actually a fairly modern pattern, or at least gained popularity recently. I've seen a number of variations similar in the past few years.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:54
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http://eidogo.com/#3RB1ZbAhx May as well put this database to some use. This isn't really a 'Tygem thing', other than apparently they like to press on the extending stone more than the typical bump option if the Sensei's article is right. The direct stand at Black 9 in that diagram isn't the most common, usually Black plays the diagonal a line below Black 9. Threw the position into Kombilo, here's some variations pros are playing in recent years. I have about 430 games with the two-space extension off the attachment to the 3-4. There are a few options there it looks like, but the vast majority entail the bump by white and descent by black, after which options open up again. I didn't go super in depth because many of the branches break apart quickly into instances of less than ten examples or a variety of singleton attempts at new moves with mixed success. Tried to stick to variations with a dozen or more showings for the most part. Just wanted to share since I've been seeing this line more and more and think it's interesting. Before I go sleep, forgot to add it:  My understanding is that if Black stands instead of the diagonal it's because he wants to follow up at the marked stone later. WuChou fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 07:46
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Interesting. The EidoGo database doesn't have any hits for it, only two for the pattern itself but in both of those it's the other player to move, i.e. the extension was already in place and then the contact move was played, which makes things totally different. I can see how it produces some reasonable results in the variations you've given, but it's hard to see how prodigious' result is good in that game, if Khel follows up on the left instead of playing in the top right. Sure, it's fine if you do get to play on both sides, as he did in the game, but generally speaking it's got to be bad if you help your opponent get a 100% settled group + about 12 points of territory in the corner and you just end up with groups on either side which each require you to add a move to settle them. Now, if a joseki had already been played out in the lower left it would be totally different. Although he's got a hoshi down there, it's too far away to really prevent an attack on the two-stone pillar, but if he had e.g. a stone at D6 (or, as Khel says he got to play in the game, C7), then Black has essentially managed to play on both sides, which seems to be the goal of making that jump. I'm guessing that it's mostly Korean pros experimenting with this? Tygem or not, it seems like the modern Korean style... a borderline greedy emphasis on developing everywhere at once, backed up by sharp fighting skills to handle the inevitable weak groups. xopods fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 11:55
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The 2 space extension is the most popular response to the attachment in the corner in pro games nowadays and the result in the game I played should be more or less even. Having to kick my pincer stone is a slight minus for black, so should be ok for both sides. The choice between standing and playing kosumi in response to c14 is a more subtle thing, I think both responses are playable in my game.
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Jun 17, 2014 15:01
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Anyway, all that aside, my original point was that the move is weird if you've never seen it (and I had never seen it, because I'm an old fart). I imagine that the opponent in the game we were originally discussing also had never seen it, and that's why he freaked out and responded with the equally weird clamp. The whole point is that weird doesn't necessarily mean bad - weird-looking but good moves is basically what's meant by tesuji, after all. The correct response, given by Khel and confirmed by your diagrams is a move that you should be able to find even if you've never seen the jump and studied the variations. That whole game, lemons is playing unconventional moves - whether they're innovations he's learned from seeing other people play them, or stuff he's coming up with on the fly - and his opponent's responses give one the sense of "Go rage," that reflex to get upset that your opponent is playing moves that you didn't expect and which seem to violate basic instinct. The key in dealing with that kind of stuff is not to go crazy yourself, but to play solidly and naturally and leave it to your opponent to prove why the move works. Sometimes you'll end up walking into a trick play like that, but the thing about trick plays is that they only work on you once.
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Jun 17, 2014 15:08
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Prodigious posted:The 2 space extension is the most popular response to the attachment in the corner in pro games nowadays. That's wild. The Go landscape has really changed a lot since I stopped playing, it seems. What's it's earliest appearance, does anyone know?
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Jun 17, 2014 15:10
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xopods posted:Anyway, all that aside, my original point was that the move is weird if you've never seen it (and I had never seen it, because I'm an old fart). I imagine that the opponent in the game we were originally discussing also had never seen it, and that's why he freaked out and responded with the equally weird clamp. The whole point is that weird doesn't necessarily mean bad - weird-looking but good moves is basically what's meant by tesuji, after all. I've learned, through a few more games, that bad moves often punish themselves. My opponet made a really weird rear end move that I knew was bad, but I didn't do anything strange with it, just normal moves in response. A few moves later and he ended up having to make 2-3 slow moves that only gave him life because of his bad shape and I got all the bigger ones.
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Jun 17, 2014 15:18
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AdorableStar posted:I've learned, through a few more games, that bad moves often punish themselves. My opponet made a really weird rear end move that I knew was bad, but I didn't do anything strange with it, just normal moves in response. A few moves later and he ended up having to make 2-3 slow moves that only gave him life because of his bad shape and I got all the bigger ones. Good! That's the point I was trying to make all along. And it comes from personal experience. For a lot of my Go life I was reading tons of theory, studying joseki books and opening theory and so forth like you do, and I would get super upset when people beat me during fighting after I vastly outplayed them in the opening, and complain about people playing "weird" moves like you were doing the other day. What I eventually realized is that fighting is inevitable. If you're behind, you need to fight to catch up. If you're ahead, your opponent needs to fight to catch up. The only time a game should proceed calmly the whole way is if both players assess the position differently and each thinks he's slightly ahead. It's frustrating when you're a bookish person like both of us clearly are, because you can't just read a bunch of books to get strong at fighting. Opening theory will make the difference between two players who are equally strong at fighting, but if one guy plays the opening at a 1d level but fights like a 10k, and the other guy opens like a 10k but fights like a 1d, the second guy will win every single game, and it'll be super-frustrating for the first guy because he'll feel like he was way ahead 40 moves into all of those games. That's not to say that you have to fight wildly. Your choices aren't only between backing down or getting into a crazy brawl with weak groups spilling every which-way. That's what happens when you go-rage, but you can adopt a solid, technical counter-punching style of fighting and get good at that... that's usually better than giving a wildly aggressive player what he wants. xopods fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 15:29
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xopods posted:Anyway, all that aside, my original point was that the move is weird if you've never seen it (and I had never seen it, because I'm an old fart). I imagine that the opponent in the game we were originally discussing also had never seen it, and that's why he freaked out and responded with the equally weird clamp. The whole point is that weird doesn't necessarily mean bad - weird-looking but good moves is basically what's meant by tesuji, after all. May I ask what moves by me would be considered unconventional? It all seems quite reasonable to me. I assume I did make a bunch of terrible moves but I really wasn't getting any "im just playing trick moves now" feeling during the game.
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Jun 17, 2014 15:40
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IMlemon posted:May I ask what moves by me would be considered unconventional? It all seems quite reasonable to me. I assume I did make a bunch of terrible moves but I really wasn't getting any "im just playing trick moves now" feeling during the game. Actually, no, my perception of the game was wrong. I'd just clicked through it quickly when I originally commented, and it seemed like he was in a rage over something you'd done, but looking at it again, W8 is the only move that would have stood out to me as weird, and now it's been explained that it's the new normal and I'm just out of touch. A lot of weird things happened later, but it was all his doing. He was clearly in a rage based on his play, and said so himself at the end, but looking at it again, I can't see what you could have done to set him off. Maybe he was on a losing streak and in a rage before the game even began? The only moves you made that seem bad to me (and not very bad at that) are W22 and W32. W22 should probably be a line lower. I know you want to make the right sized extension from your two-stone wall, but this pincer isn't going to end up sitting there on its own. Once he invades the corner and you make a wall, an invasion in the C11 area would be far too deep, so the distance of the pincer stone from the pillar above is mostly irrelevant. Instead, you want it to be placed to minimize the aji of the sacrificed stone. So I'd make the one-space pincer. W32 is an aggressive tenuki. I don't think your position on the left side is strong enough to just ignore the aji entirely. Q5 is very big of course, so you want to take sente, but I would probably play G5. If he answers, then you can play Q5. If he makes a shimari instead, then you play G3 and erase his potential to develop in front of that shimari. EDIT: Actually, I think what gave me the sense I had of the game was that first you play what I thought was an unorthodox move at W8, and which he responds to badly, which probably indicates that it struck him as weird as well... and then when you initiate the same joseki in the lower right, which he presumably knows the "old normal" line for (inside hane at R4), he also chooses to deviate, which gives a sense of "alright, you want to gently caress around? How about this, see how you like it?" And then you correctly punish him and get a good position and he completely flies off the handle at B57. xopods fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 16:23
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Now let's all be friends again
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Jun 17, 2014 17:26
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xopods posted:That's wild. The Go landscape has really changed a lot since I stopped playing, it seems. Josekipedia claimed some appearances in the Edo period but my collection doesn't have a ton of those, so the earliest in my results is about 2007, a few instances. In 2008-2009 it gains some ground, Cho U plays it something like a dozen or more times in this timeframe. It starts to pick up steam from there with Korean players primarily, the majority of my hits are games between 2013 and present.
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Jun 17, 2014 17:33
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WuChou posted:Josekipedia claimed some appearances in the Edo period but my collection doesn't have a ton of those, so the earliest in my results is about 2007, a few instances. In 2008-2009 it gains some ground, Cho U plays it something like a dozen or more times in this timeframe. It starts to pick up steam from there with Korean players primarily, the majority of my hits are games between 2013 and present. Yeah, so almost exactly coinciding with the time I quit. I wonder what else I've missed. Are people opening at 5-5 now?
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Jun 17, 2014 22:38
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My most recent live game http://eidogo.com/#2UFNzOrU3 i guess im better than i thought? ive been imagining i was maybe 18k or maybe the ranking systems on ogs and kgs are just very different. anyway i actually felt confident fighting in this one, it made the game much more fun!
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Jun 18, 2014 06:46
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Did you go from 14k to 9k in that game? Because lol.
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Jun 18, 2014 08:26
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uranus posted:My most recent live game http://eidogo.com/#2UFNzOrU3 Before black 10, if you notice, this basically turns into a 3-3 invasion joseki.
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Jun 18, 2014 08:39
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One Colour go. Availible on the hacked client.
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Jun 18, 2014 15:56
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yeah i'm not 9k. the ? next to my rank means the system is still trying to figure me out, so its probably going to jump around a lot till it gets a read on me. I'm more surprised that I beat a 12k with only a 2 stone handicap when ive been hovering at around 21k for the past 20 or so games on OGS. its encouraging to say the least
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Jun 18, 2014 16:12
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uranus posted:yeah i'm not 9k. the ? next to my rank means the system is still trying to figure me out, so its probably going to jump around a lot till it gets a read on me. I'm more surprised that I beat a 12k with only a 2 stone handicap when ive been hovering at around 21k for the past 20 or so games on OGS. its encouraging to say the least I wouldn't trust the ogs ranking system, to be honest. What with its 20-30k sandbagger community, ability to set your own rank from 30k to 6d, and ability to play 9x9 and 13x13 ranked. e: It's really rare to find someone that is just "21k". The only reason you've been at 21k on ogs for so many games is probably because the people at that rank are probably all 15-5k kgs. AdorableStar fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 16:15
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AdorableStar posted:I wouldn't trust the ogs ranking system, to be honest. What with its 20-30k sandbagger community, ability to set your own rank from 30k to 6d, and ability to play 9x9 and 13x13 ranked. What's the point of complaining about the system when you yourself are actively working to undermine it?
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Jun 18, 2014 17:33
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xopods posted:What's the point of complaining about the system when you yourself are actively working to undermine it? I am 6d on ogs because I can be and don't really play on it except when people can't use java. And even then it's not ranked. I don't care about ogs's ranked system but it feels weird to me when other people are using it (At the 20k and under level) for their actual rank. Uranus isn't 21k, he's probably actually 13-16k, and shouldn't consider himself 21k.
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Jun 18, 2014 17:38
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