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It's not uncommon for self-identified libertarians to be pro-monarchy and sometimes just Nazi so I wouldn't put much weight on that chart. The key is recognizing that they love the state so long as the state is called something else
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Oct 5, 2022 05:24
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"Statist" is one of those things that immediately sends the person saying it to the pay-no-mind list. It's not a coherent concept, and another example of how libertarians often just can't grasp that other people('s thoughts) are real.
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Oct 5, 2022 05:27
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The square political compass has its origins in Theodor Adorno's F-scale personality test, where he intended to prove that there is a separate F (for fascism) factor in people's decision-making from how left or right they are or consider themselves, and that the F factor is the more significant one in terms of who goes nazi. It's a simplification as all models are, but I can't blame a German exile of Jewish descent for wondering about such things in 1947, and it takes at least two dimensions to talk about how Marine Le Pen or the BNP are economic centrists but populist racists rather than just lumping them as 'far right' with the economic liberals. The Nolan chart is just garbage to 'prove' that everybody is naturally a libertarian if you pretend that economic freedom is a thing that you can have by yourself. Peter Kropotkin talked a lot about statism in a negative sense, but that made more sense in the time of Bismarck and the idea of a managerial state to control 'the mob'
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Oct 5, 2022 08:42
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Harold Fjord posted:"Statists" is what they are calling Communists. It's an attempt to capture anarchists, who they call left-libertarian, and bridge the so-called red/brown gap. Left wing Anarchists were calling themselves libertarian (poo poo, it's still fairly common outside of America) decades before propertarians started to co-opt the term. It's not a very good tactic from the propertarians, seeing how almost every anarchist I've met is motivated first and foremost anti-capitalist. A cute graph isn't changing that
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Oct 5, 2022 09:30
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I would suggest if we are looking for extra axes then whether, and how, people conceptualize the necessarily mediated nature of freedom would probably be one. Does personal and economic freedom mean you want to own slaves, or does it mean working out a system whereby we all get to do as much as possible and have the resources to do it?
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Oct 5, 2022 09:44
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Harold Fjord posted:"Statists" is what they are calling Communists. It's an attempt to capture anarchists, who they call left-libertarian, and bridge the so-called red/brown gap. I read something to the effect of "getting called a statist by a Libertarian is like getting called an adult-fucker by a pedophile."
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Oct 5, 2022 10:32
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Agents are GO! posted:I read something to the effect of "getting called a statist by a Libertarian is like getting called an adult-fucker by a Libertarian." Yeah I've read something like that too.
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Oct 5, 2022 10:53
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest if we are looking for extra axes then whether, and how, people conceptualize the necessarily mediated nature of freedom would probably be one. Yeah this. The basic reason you can't bridge the red Brown Gap is because there are other axes and one of them is how big of a piece of poo poo you are
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Oct 5, 2022 13:03
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Harold Fjord posted:Yeah this. The basic reason you can't bridge the red Brown Gap is because there are other axes and one of them is how big of a piece of poo poo you are Though it certainly helps certain narratives to pretend that you can.
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Oct 5, 2022 13:05
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OwlFancier posted:I would suggest if we are looking for extra axes then whether, and how, people conceptualize the necessarily mediated nature of freedom would probably be one. Or does freedom mean you can go into any establishment you want and the private business owner can't require you to wear a mask?
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Oct 5, 2022 16:00
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This pretty much sums up why I hate even using the terms left/right/liberal/conservative. It's what you just talked about but also, especially in the US, a way to identify 'bad people'. I never want to say that I hate any faction because people assume that I am a member of the opposite faction. I have nothing but contempt for liberals and conservatives and I consider it an insult to be lumped in with either. On another note, 'authoritarianism' to me is a bullshit term. Any political philosophy can impose their values on others - full stop. Full freedom is impossible and undesirable and any such scenario would quickly devolve from chaos to tyranny of the most powerful and organised. That's why the best villains are always Lawful Evil.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:29
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It makes sense in its original context of Adorno's F-factor and The Authoritarian Personality, where it originated. There it's referring to people there rather than political philosophies and the whole point he was trying to investigate is common factors independent of conventional (at that point in the 1940s) 'left/right' politics that may lead to someone becoming a nazi, fascist, falangist, absolute monarchist, theocrat, or any other type that appeals to rigid hierarchy and authority.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:42
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Guavanaut posted:It makes sense in its original context of Adorno's F-factor and The Authoritarian Personality, where it originated. There it's referring to people there rather than political philosophies and the whole point he was trying to investigate is common factors independent of conventional (at that point in the 1940s) 'left/right' politics that may lead to someone becoming a nazi, fascist, falangist, absolute monarchist, theocrat, or any other type that appeals to rigid hierarchy and authority. That makes sense; I'm not familiar with that work. Now it's just become like fascist/socialist/communist where it's an attack word divorced from any actual meaning. These days, it's to be used to describe anyone or anything that makes one have to do something one would rather not or prevents one from doing something that one would like to do.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:48
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Yeah, from his perspective as a German-Jewish exile writing in the late 40s it pretty much meant "snazzy logos, uniforms, racial hierarchies, rigidity, ghettoes, martialism, and ultimately genocide" rather than "please wear a mask indoors", with an effort to explain why people, even those who would otherwise place themselves on the left, found more shared purpose in that than in their own beliefs. The opposite of that authoritarianism isn't libertarianism (especially not the snake flag patch and AR-15 libertarianism), it would be more like humanism, is a person psychologically more agreeable to "people have all different ideas and must deal with each other pragmatically" or "it's more fun and effective to stove their heads in."
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Oct 5, 2022 17:11
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JustJeff88 posted:That makes sense; I'm not familiar with that work. Now it's just become like fascist/socialist/communist where it's an attack word divorced from any actual meaning. These days, it's to be used to describe anyone or anything that makes one have to do something one would rather not or prevents one from doing something that one would like to do. Our language (in this case English, but it's similarly lazy here in northern Europe) isn't very good with political labels, period. People are lazy, only subscribe to certain scholars or schools of thought, and so on and so forth, and all labels are used in a hodge-podge of confusion where no one (or at least very rarely) bothers to cite definitions for what they're talking about. Authoritarianism does provide a useful short-hand in certain political science contexts, but it doesn't preclude other forms of hierarchical societies from existing under different labels (e.g. I would say that feudalism is very much a "might makes right" society philosophically, but it doesn't necessarily fit into a fascist frame-work as either historically existed). And similarly contemporary Russian propaganda labels everything that's essentially perceived as against the interests of a small cadre of Russian ruling elites as "fascist", in a bizarre parody of Soviet usage of the word as a slander for anti-Soviets or capitalists in general. Socialist is a four-letter-word in post-WW2 discourse. Etc. It's fundamentally senseless and bizarre that "right" and "left" are seen as sufficient or even meaningful short-hands encompassing coherent policy goals. Of course a cynical person would point out that obfuscating language and simplifying terminology serves ruling interests, but we wouldn't invoke mister Orwell in polite company, now would we Guavanaut posted:The opposite of that authoritarianism isn't libertarianism (especially not the snake flag patch and AR-15 libertarianism), https://i.imgur.com/9XUHUlP.mp4
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Oct 5, 2022 19:49
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VitalSigns posted:Does freedom mean that business owners have the right to exclude anyone they want from their property and have whites-only businesses if they want? Whichever allows me, a white male property owner, do whatever I want whenever I want, and constrains everyone else doing anything I dislike, ever. Libertarianism in the modern context is nothing more than a tissue-paper pseudo-ideology masking naked greed and self-interest, among many other moral failures.
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Oct 5, 2022 21:53
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It's funny how well the pandemic threw this into stark relief. They want Whites only lunch counters and movie theaters again so they hide behind property rights and insist that a private property owner is a little lord and freedom is when lords can run their property however they like and discriminate against whoever they like for any reason they like as long as they own the land. They have office jobs and want to feel superior to the working class so they hide behind property rights again and insist a business owner can dictate working conditions at will and if the lowest employees don't want to be abused their only choice is to quit and work somewhere else for another little tyrant who is probably the same as the last guy. Then suddenly a worldwide crisis occurs and it made rational (and financial) sense for employers and businesses to make them do something they didn't want to do (wear a mask and/or get vaccinated) and boy did they start yelling about their freedom and property rights weren't important to the principle anymore.
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Oct 5, 2022 23:00
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Rappaport posted:Our language (in this case English, but it's similarly lazy here in northern Europe) isn't very good with political labels, period. People are lazy, only subscribe to certain scholars or schools of thought, and so on and so forth, and all labels are used in a hodge-podge of confusion where no one (or at least very rarely) bothers to cite definitions for what they're talking about. Authoritarianism does provide a useful short-hand in certain political science contexts, but it doesn't preclude other forms of hierarchical societies from existing under different labels (e.g. I would say that feudalism is very much a "might makes right" society philosophically, but it doesn't necessarily fit into a fascist frame-work as either historically existed). And similarly contemporary Russian propaganda labels everything that's essentially perceived as against the interests of a small cadre of Russian ruling elites as "fascist", in a bizarre parody of Soviet usage of the word as a slander for anti-Soviets or capitalists in general. Socialist is a four-letter-word in post-WW2 discourse. Etc. It's fundamentally senseless and bizarre that "right" and "left" are seen as sufficient or even meaningful short-hands encompassing coherent policy goals. French is no better except in the sense that France actually has 'leftist' political parties. Meanwhile, they re-elect the corporate drone rather than the actual fascist. I am really getting tired also of how everyone ignores the mother of Fascism, Italy (which also just elected a fascist) and the fact that fascism is an anti-communist corporate philsophy. It's always Germany/Hitler/anti-immigrant, but the corporate aspects never get brought up. Mussolini's Italy had corporate CEOs in their parliament, for gently caress's sake. I guess keeping people boiling about immigration is okay, but fascism is bad and we don't want it linked to corporations (which are also bad, but don't tell anyone)
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Oct 6, 2022 00:17
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 https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1577703697299435520?t=xe3Ddv_aQOclC8lyzt0clA&s=19
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Oct 6, 2022 02:03
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Not a fresh take. Ann Coulter was doing the whole "women vote for Democrats, so I'd happily give up my right to vote if it would ensure Republicans win" schtick in the 2000s. I guess it's a little different that libertarians are just admitting they're ordinary conservatives who want to ban abortion
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Oct 6, 2022 03:49
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That was kinda what the 1/6 gambit was about. People being willing to invalidate the voting process indefinitely to make sure the guy they like gets put in charge. Kind of a contradiction in terms. People like being able to vote because it's the best way they can hope to have some kind of control on the world around them, so this is just people saying that if they just personally had more control on the world around them, they'd give up the lesser means of control. No poo poo. JustJeff88 posted:I am really getting tired also of how everyone ignores the mother of Fascism, Italy (which also just elected a fascist) and the fact that fascism is an anti-communist corporate philsophy. It's always Germany/Hitler/anti-immigrant, but the corporate aspects never get brought up. Mussolini's Italy had corporate CEOs in their parliament, for gently caress's sake. I guess keeping people boiling about immigration is okay, but fascism is bad and we don't want it linked to corporations (which are also bad, but don't tell anyone) I think that's mainly because Mussolini on the international stage was always second fiddle to Hitler (third fiddle if you pay attention to Japan, which to be honest, many Americans and Europeans didn't), whereas Nazi Germany was the much more powerful and influential state, and I think most mask-off fascism groups tend to pay more tribute and draw connection to Hitler than they do to Mussolini. Germany had a lot more of what people promise for greatness as opposed to a guy who couldn't even keep a train schedule.
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Oct 6, 2022 04:35
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https://twitter.com/Carnage4Life/status/1601993598886903808?t=24Td6GCEjIY1cUuHNthQ8w&s=19 it's been funny to see conservatives/libertarians/etc. flail around looking for an excuse for why the dreaded "socialism" that can never work anywhere on earth, apparently has no problem working in 30+ countries in europe. this one seems to be the most recent excuse the brain trust came up with
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Dec 12, 2022 00:19
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Mr Interweb posted:https://twitter.com/Carnage4Life/status/1601993598886903808?t=24Td6GCEjIY1cUuHNthQ8w&s=19 Is Dare here just reporting this horseshit or outright lionising it? He looks like the type of corporate stooge that would either a) genuinely swallow this poo poo or b) knows that it's bollocks but uses it as propaganda for private sector profits/to keep american workers dependant upon their jobs for health coverage. Also, it's really not funny because a lot of people believe this, and it's working... there's a reason that the US is the only industrialised nation without universal health care and the only one with a huge portion of the population that would rather go without themselves rather than pay for someone else's healthcare.
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Dec 12, 2022 00:25
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Mr Interweb posted:https://twitter.com/Carnage4Life/status/1601993598886903808?t=24Td6GCEjIY1cUuHNthQ8w&s=19 It's a shame that the World Communism Government is forcing all of these American companies to accept less than fair terms on market deals abroad Also lmao at claiming that it's American hard work and not factories in SE Asia with literal suicide-prevention nets
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Dec 12, 2022 00:29
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gently caress that grinds my gears "The only reason all these other places have happier, healthier people is because we're freedoming so hard, and in fact we need to freedom even harder, and make them freedom too." the sheer evangelism of misery
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Dec 12, 2022 01:20
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At least they're moving on from the endless cycle of We can't have government provided healthcare because that's socialism -> Socialism seems to be working pretty well in Europe -> That's not socialism, they are market economies -> Ok so can we have healthcare then? -> No, that's socialism...
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Dec 12, 2022 11:08
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Cakebaker posted:At least they're moving on from the endless cycle of Well, one has to vary one's tactics or even the idiots who think that capitalism is in their best interest might catch on. Anything that can be done must be done to avoid regulations that might hurt profits and to encourage the privatisation of anything that is profitable. If it's not profitable then leave it in the public sector, but make sure that the rich and corporations don't have to pay tax for it.
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Dec 12, 2022 20:15
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QuarkJets posted:Also lmao at claiming that it's American hard work and not factories in SE Asia with literal suicide-prevention nets theshim posted:"The only reason all these other places have happier, healthier people is because we're freedoming so hard, and in fact we need to freedom even harder, and make them freedom too."
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Dec 12, 2022 20:20
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The complaint that European governments can only negotiate low drug prices because Pfizer can subsidize this by jacking up prices on Americans who have no defense is an interesting one. So then our government should end that subsidy by negotiating prices too right? NO!!!!!
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Dec 12, 2022 20:38
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VitalSigns posted:The complaint that European governments can only negotiate low drug prices because Pfizer can subsidize this by jacking up prices on Americans who have no defense is an interesting one. That was a claim made in D&D in a thread about this not too long ago. It's also a pretty common one among chud single-payer deniers.
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Dec 12, 2022 21:11
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Mr Interweb posted:it's been funny to see conservatives/libertarians/etc. flail around looking for an excuse for why the dreaded "socialism" that can never work anywhere on earth, apparently has no problem working in 30+ countries in europe. this one seems to be the most recent excuse the brain trust came up with Which I thought was pretty instructive, since it shows that once fearmongering about "socialized medicine" isn't effective, these people are reduced to making racist arguments about how we could have better health care (plus a better environment, etc.) if it weren't for those damned [insert anyone who isn't considered white here]. Enver Zogha fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 12, 2022 |
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Dec 12, 2022 21:50
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Jaxyon posted:That was a claim made in D&D in a thread about this not too long ago. It's also a pretty common one among chud single-payer deniers. I think it's largely true that the U.S. getting gouged on medicine prices subsidizes medical research for everyone else to a degree, but it's a really lovely, inefficient, and slow way of doing that. If the U.S. wants to subsidize worldwide medical research by pushing the boundaries for its own citizens, the government could do that with research programs. Those wouldn't need to come with perverse incentives and the glacial trickle out of IP medicine.
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Dec 12, 2022 22:00
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It’s not really wrong as an argument but maybe lay blame on those in power as opposed to victims of generations of abuse. “if it weren't for those damned… racist rear end neoconfederates who would rather shut down a public school rather than integrate….” Is more accurate.
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Dec 12, 2022 22:06
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:I think it's largely true that the U.S. getting gouged on medicine prices subsidizes medical research for everyone else to a degree, but it's a really lovely, inefficient, and slow way of doing that. If the U.S. wants to subsidize worldwide medical research by pushing the boundaries for its own citizens, the government could do that with research programs. Those wouldn't need to come with perverse incentives and the glacial trickle out of IP medicine. The government pretty much does do that. A lot, and I mean a lot, of actual medical research is heavily funded by the US government, including grants to university researchers, but then rights of ownership and all profits get privatized.
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Dec 12, 2022 22:09
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disposablewords posted:The government pretty much does do that. A lot, and I mean a lot, of actual medical research is heavily funded by the US government, including grants to university researchers, but then rights of ownership and all profits get privatized. Yep, but you'll notice that hardly anyone cries 'socialism!' on that, now do they? Other people getting health care on my tax dollar (even if I get the same care, and they also pay tax) is dirty socialism, but companies making billions off of my taxes that went to public research is just the market doing its magic.
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Dec 13, 2022 00:57
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:I think it's largely true that the U.S. getting gouged on medicine prices subsidizes medical research for everyone else to a degree, but it's a really lovely, inefficient, and slow way of doing that. If the U.S. wants to subsidize worldwide medical research by pushing the boundaries for its own citizens, the government could do that with research programs. Those wouldn't need to come with perverse incentives and the glacial trickle out of IP medicine. Direct public funding is actually how most pharmaceutical research in the US already works, US Tax Dollars Funded Every New Pharmaceutical in the Last Decade (meaning approved by the FDA in the years 2010-2019). Corporations foot marketing and distribution costs and reap all of the profit but aren't so much paying for the discovery of new treatments themselves
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Dec 13, 2022 06:35
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It's incredibly true that poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
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Dec 13, 2022 07:18
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JustJeff88 posted:Yep, but you'll notice that hardly anyone cries 'socialism!' on that, now do they? Other people getting health care on my tax dollar (even if I get the same care, and they also pay tax) is dirty socialism, but companies making billions off of my taxes that went to public research is just the market doing its magic. TRUE LIBERTY AND FREEDOM: I get your money AN AFFRONT TO HUMAN DIGNITY AND WESTERN CIVILISATION ITSELF: you get my money
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Dec 14, 2022 12:00
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This person is the quintessential modern libertarian, freedom for me but not for thee: https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1602783875335331840?t=k8CwVkg9TJTtzICsAaPA9A&s=19 https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1601588693130969089?t=i9E2JDHX-2Y_3He7wlRkPQ&s=19
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Dec 14, 2022 12:36
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Many girls and women might genuinely not know what would happen thanks to defunded education and religious crap
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Dec 14, 2022 23:40
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