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Imagined posted:Since someone mentioned it ITT I started listening to the audiobook of 'In the Shadow of the Sword' and really like the writing style and narrator. Since the goon who mentioned it used a $10 word lacunae instead of "flaws", though, I didn't immediately realize that the book was controversial until I started reading about it. At the very least I think Holland convincingly makes the case that the birth of Islam is a murkier subject than commonly believed. Any more detailed claims are probably controversial
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Aug 6, 2019 19:26
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What got me suspicious were how many of the blurbs praising the book on its Amazon description were from right wing British tabloids, plus the Daily Beast, which is hardly where I'd go for recommendations on history books.
Imagined fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 19:31
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Most of Holland's work is uncritically repeating the words of ancient historians in an approachable, easy-to-read way. Like Rubicon and Persian Fire are probably the best introductions to the fall of the Roman republic and the Greek-Persian wars, but there's practically nothing new in them you won't find in dozens of other books. In the Shadow of the Sword is his only book I'm aware of that has seemingly controversial or novel scholarship. Now, that doesn't mean it's wrong, but he's definitely writing outside of his comfort zone for it, which raises at least one red flag.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:48
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I stumbled upon an interested quote that relates to some of the discussion of Greek identity in the Roman Empire people were having recently, taken from the tenth century De Administrando Imperio regarding a small Peloponnesian town on the Mani peninsula:Constantine VII posted:Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs (Melingoi and Ezeritai dwelling on the Taygetus) but from the older Romaioi, who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation. I'm not entirely sure how to interpret it, the curious can find the original Greek on page 224 of this edition. However my impression is that in this time, the residents of this region refer to those that are still pagan (or were until recently at least) as Greeks, while those who have converted to christianity have taken to calling themselves Roman. Or maybe it's the local slavs who call all Greek speakers Hellenes? I just thought it was an interesting bit of information on Byzantine identity.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:30
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My reading is that at some point, the locals called christian green romaioi, and pagan greeks hellenes. The names stuck even after the hellenes converted.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:34
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:I know this is history but the dead languages thread in SAL has ironically been dead for over a year. give up do something edifying like sending me your money
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Aug 6, 2019 22:10
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does anybody have reading suggestions on pre-industrial, proto-anarchist movements? The true levellers/diggers as one example?
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Aug 6, 2019 23:10
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Squalid posted:I stumbled upon an interested quote that relates to some of the discussion of Greek identity in the Roman Empire people were having recently, taken from the tenth century De Administrando Imperio regarding a small Peloponnesian town on the Mani peninsula: I ran across this recently too. Hellene was used to refer to pagans worshiping the Olympian gods. Part of Roman identity in this era was being Christian.
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Aug 7, 2019 05:16
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Imagined posted:Since someone mentioned it ITT I started listening to the audiobook of 'In the Shadow of the Sword' and really like the writing style and narrator. Since the goon who mentioned it used a $10 word lacunae instead of "flaws", though, I didn't immediately realize that the book was controversial until I started reading about it.  for this forum I can afford to throw them around 
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Aug 7, 2019 06:15
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:I know this is history but the dead languages thread in SAL has ironically been dead for over a year. If you want a better Latin textbook, try Lingua Latina. Legonium is also pretty cute, if you're talking about starting knowing zero Latin.
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Aug 7, 2019 15:42
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Ecce Romani for life Cornelia et Flavia sunt puellae quae in Italia habitat.
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Aug 7, 2019 16:51
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The one true way to learn Latin is from repeated scouring of Ars Amatoria and Remedia Amoris while a celibate dude threatens you with corporeal punishment.
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Aug 7, 2019 19:56
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Cornelia et Flavia sunt puellae quae in Italia habitant. 
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Aug 7, 2019 20:02
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CommonShore posted:The one true way to learn Latin is from repeated scouring of Ars Amatoria and Remedia Amoris while a celibate dude threatens you with corporeal punishment. kinky
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Aug 7, 2019 21:17
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Ecce Romani for life Fight me. Yes, I have opinions on Latin textbooks. CommonShore posted:The one true way to learn Latin is from repeated scouring of Ars Amatoria and Remedia Amoris while a celibate dude threatens you with corporeal punishment. Okay, I like you.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:37
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Ecce Romani for life ecce! in pictura est puella, nomine Flavia.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:42
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Ecce Romani for life A pale shadow to the real first family of Latin textbooks, Caecilius et al. 
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Aug 7, 2019 23:57
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Grumio ancillam delectat.
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Aug 8, 2019 00:27
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Goddam you ECCE SEXTE, CAUDAM MOVENT
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Aug 8, 2019 00:42
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Somehow even though I took only one year of Latin in 6th grade more than 20 years ago the whole Caecilius / Grumio / Quintus story really stuck with me. I looked it up for the first time this year, I had no idea it was so popular.
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Aug 8, 2019 02:48
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I think the only Quintus story I know from Latin comes from the Oxford Latin books my school used.
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Aug 8, 2019 16:30
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Goddam you If it's any consolation, all these textbooks seem to be much more fun than what I had (in 70s/80s Germany). And I still haven't finished this, although it's been lying on my couch for months. That one also has a few cases of mismatched numerus or genus...
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Aug 8, 2019 17:28
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Just learn all the famous Latin phrases and drop them all the time and everyone will assume you know Latin.
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Aug 9, 2019 15:47
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Dulce er decorum est pro forum probatio.
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Aug 9, 2019 15:54
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Cyrano4747 posted:Dulce er decorum est pro forum probatio. faescripto is what I'm seeing online for shitpost, which I think fits better.
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Aug 9, 2019 16:09
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Ave Lowtax, faescripturi te salutant
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Aug 9, 2019 16:14
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FreudianSlippers posted:Just learn all the famous Latin phrases and drop them all the time and everyone will assume you know Latin. You jest, but this is literally what Wheelock does and is intended to do. To try to keep this topic more in keeping with the thread: one of the really cool things about the ongoing "how to teach a language" is that learning the grammar isn't how it was done in the Classical Mediterranean world at all. That was apparently dialogue between a teacher and students. There are a few extant copies of Latin texts (aimed at Greek-speaking students) that essentially start, "I got out of bed and brushed my teeth. . . " My favorite quote (I may be misremembering) is from Cato the Elder, who said that if you want to learn Greek, get a wet nurse who speaks it.
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Aug 9, 2019 17:34
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FreudianSlippers posted:Just learn all the famous Latin phrases and drop them all the time and everyone will assume you know Latin. Or get a degree in Roman history and everyone will assume it. I still get friends I've known for like a decade asking me to translate Latin for them and I have to remind them I have never so much as opened a Latin textbook or taken a minute of class. E: People might be curious how this works. Basically you do your bachelor's in history. When you move on to grad school, there are two paths: classics and history. If you go for classics, every program I've seen requires you to be functional in Latin, Ancient Greek, and two of the four modern languages that classical scholarship is done in: English, French, Italian, or German. History, you don't need to know poo poo about languages. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 18:20
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Grand Fromage posted:Or get a degree in Roman history and everyone will assume it. That seems like it would limit your interaction with the primary texts somewhat, tho?
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Aug 9, 2019 18:26
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I'm listening to the history of Byzantium and i love the demes so much
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Aug 9, 2019 18:31
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CommonShore posted:I'm listening to the history of Byzantium and i love the demes so much Greens or Blues? Be careful what you say.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:33
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Zopotantor posted:Greens or Blues? Be careful what you say. As a whole, as a concept. Plus they remind me of Calico Storico.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:36
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CommonShore posted:I'm listening to the history of Byzantium and i love the demes so much So this is by someone not the History of Rome podcast guy (the Revolutions guy), nor is it by the Fall of Rome podcast guy?
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Aug 9, 2019 18:37
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The History of Byzantium podcast has been slow lately since the host is getting married and also doing his Istanbul documentary. In the mean time I've really been enjoying The History of the Papacy and Beyond the Big Screen (covers historical movies) by Stephen Guerra, The History of England which has a surprisingly large number of characters in common with Byzantium, The History of the Vikings podcast and the In Our Time: History show by the BBC.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:43
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Thanks for the reccs! This coincides well with me finally making it through the many year history of rome/byzantium backlog. Schadenboner posted:So this is by someone not the History of Rome podcast guy (the Revolutions guy), nor is it by the Fall of Rome podcast guy? Basically it’s a Mike Duncan (history of rome) fan who didn’t want the podcast to end so he continued it.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:47
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tildes posted:Basically it’s a Mike Duncan (history of rome) fan who didn’t want the podcast to end so he continued it. Yep, it's good. Schadenboner posted:That seems like it would limit your interaction with the primary texts somewhat, tho? Plenty of people just work with translations. There's no shortage of them. Even though it isn't a requirement, if I were in a situation where getting a Roman history PhD was a thing that would happen, I'd learn Latin and Greek. But that isn't going to happen so gently caress 'em.
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Aug 9, 2019 18:51
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OctaviusBeaver posted:The History of Byzantium podcast has been slow lately since the host is getting married and also doing his Istanbul documentary. In the mean time I've really been enjoying The History of the Papacy and Beyond the Big Screen (covers historical movies) by Stephen Guerra, The History of England which has a surprisingly large number of characters in common with Byzantium, The History of the Vikings podcast and the In Our Time: History show by the BBC. Someone should fan-edit these Pulp Fiction style. 123 Not It. E: Is there a good history podcast thread?
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Aug 9, 2019 18:59
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Schadenboner posted:So this is by someone not the History of Rome podcast guy (the Revolutions guy), nor is it by the Fall of Rome podcast guy? History of Byzantium is by Robin Pierson, a british guy who has put as much, if not more effort into his podcast as Mike Duncan did. He first started the podcast trying to follow Mike's format but he eventually developed and adapted to his own style. Episodes range from 20 min to 1h sometimes more depending on the subject. As stated in a earlier reply, the podcast has been slow in the last few months due to many projects such as his wedding and a documentary from his trip to Istanbul (Not Constantinople). I highly recommend.
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Aug 9, 2019 19:05
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And much like History of Rome, the first episodes are rough while he figures out how to podcast then it gets solid. He's already done more episodes than Duncan and is only up to the late 1000s. It has a lot more detail. Not a knock on Mike, the medieval period is much better documented than classical Rome so you can go into more depth from the primary sources.
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Aug 9, 2019 21:09
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Yeah to all of that. I'm on about ep 35 right now. Whenever he says "And the demes did (insert insane thing here)" I can't help but cheer. I just love the notion of insane sport fans becoming street gangs becoming organized criminals becoming politically significant factions becoming a militia occasionally tasked with imperial defense. I also love the fact that they regularly fall to murdering each other while they're doing actually important things.
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Aug 9, 2019 21:15
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