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Jan 31, 2015 17:40
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It's a little more interesting when you overlay vinyl sales and total album sales. People aren't buying music, period. Ok, maybe it's not. BigFactory fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jan 31, 2015 |
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Jan 31, 2015 17:41
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What's this, a properly scaled graph with accurate and labeled y axis and no fancy logarithmic scale or offsets? Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention to how audiophiles Although i'm curious to see a current dataset including 13 and 14 and a legend with precise category definitions or how the data was aggregated.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:28
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RoadCrewWorker posted:What's this, a properly scaled graph with accurate and labeled y axis and no fancy logarithmic scale or offsets? Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention to how audiophiles Oh yeah, I didn't see it ended at 2012. There's definitely going to be a teeny uptick in the vinyl side for 13 and 14, like that first graph shows.
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Jan 31, 2015 19:56
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RoadCrewWorker posted:What's this, a properly scaled graph with accurate and labeled y axis and no fancy logarithmic scale or offsets? Someone clearly hasn't been paying attention to how audiophiles Me too. Recent data I don't know where to find, but there's good info up to 2009 here: http://www.businessinsider.com/these-charts-explain-the-real-death-of-the-music-industry-2011-2 Vinyl's not going to get legs again, it's just a boutique market now.
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Jan 31, 2015 20:19
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88h88 posted:Do any audiophiles use things like RTA? It's kinda standard in my PA kit but I've never seen anything like it in an audiophile environment which is weird considering they're supposedly looking for perfection in audio quality and that's a decent investment in doing so. Forget RTA, what about RT60 / RT30? Phase alignment and positioning for an even dispersion and summation at a designated listening position? Hell, do most people actually choose a box with a dispersion pattern remotely suited to their room, and then look at wavelets to determine what axial room modes to treat? Or perhaps STIPA for intelligibility if accuracy really is your bag? There are literally endless important measurements that happen in any good quality modern bar/club/arena installation, but don't seem to get a look in on audiophile stuff. The guys over at DIYAudio forums and a few others at least seem to push REW and ask people for measurements and photos to offer advice on what to do to improve the end result.
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Feb 1, 2015 09:58
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An example of how audiophiles (Head-Fi in particular) tend to miss the big picture in their endless repetition of audiophile memes. They keep harping on about how the 600 ohm version of the DT 880 headphones sounds so much better than the "lesser" 250 ohm and 32 ohm versions, since it's touted as targeted more towards audiophiles with separate headphone amps. All kinds of superlative praise is heaped on that version, claims of more bass, smoother treble, more midrange clarity, the whole shebang. But what happened when someone actually blind tested between the 250 ohm and 600 ohm versions? Completely indistinguishable! And on measurements, they show less difference in frequency response etc. than something like the AKG K701 and 702, which are literally 100% identical apart than the color. There's nothing more satisfying than when people get a good dose of objective reality.
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Feb 1, 2015 16:44
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KozmoNaut posted:There's nothing more satisfying than when people get a good dose of objective reality.
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Feb 1, 2015 17:22
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If you looking for useful info or reviews other than on cheapo gear on Head-Fi, you are at the wrong place.
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Feb 1, 2015 18:28
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Palladium posted:If you looking for useful info or reviews other than on cheapo gear on Head-Fi, you are at the wrong place. Joker's review threads are awesome.
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Feb 1, 2015 21:02
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I was talking to my mate tonight and he wants to buy a Valve amp, decent quality. He wants to pair it with a pair of KEF R300's and a Pro-Ject Xperience turntable. He asked my advice but even though i've been into stereo for years, know very little about Valve amps. What would you recommend?
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Feb 1, 2015 21:37
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KozmoNaut posted:But what happened when someone actually blind tested between the 250 ohm and 600 ohm versions? Completely indistinguishable! And on measurements, they show less difference in frequency response etc. than something like the AKG K701 and 702, which are literally 100% identical apart than the color. ABX is dumb and won't work, because music is art and science can't quantify art. It can also be thrown off by having parts of the system set up wrong, where the distortion can overwhelm the part you are trying to hear, eg cables being plugged in the wrong way or CDs being played live without an anti-jitter treatment. I'd also be very interested to know the set-up they chose; were each set equally burned in with (at least) 200 hours of white noise?
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Feb 2, 2015 02:27
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Khablam posted:ABX is dumb and won't work, because music is art and science can't quantify art. It can also be thrown off by having parts of the system set up wrong, where the distortion can overwhelm the part you are trying to hear, eg cables being plugged in the wrong way or CDs being played live without an anti-jitter treatment. It doesn't say directly in the POST OF GREAT REVELATION, but I'm fairly sure that he posted something earlier in the thread about hundreds of hours of burn-in or something to that effect. So yeah, of course he performed the proper burn-in. He's a Head-Fi user, fer chrissakes  And sort of related, I have had a revelation of my own, after listening to my dad's band practicing (he's a drummer). Those "piercing highs" and "almost too strong treble" of the DT-880s? That is actually how cymbals sound in real life, at least when you're listening to actual drums close up, and not from the 200th row at a stadium concert. Piercing, clear and bright. I can totally see why some people hate these headphones, they're extremely neutral and very close to completely flat. They've made some of my favorite music sound like it was recorded in a bedroom, very "dry" sound (lacking reverb and bottom end etc.) with no fullness in the drums and so on. But that's because those tracks were actually recorded in small studios with deliberately scaled-down production values. On other more well-produced tracks, stuff like the snap of a snare drum is just perfectly 'snappy', exactly the way I like it. Every drum has a bit of bass to its sound, even the snare. I want to hear that. I want to hear every breath, every fingernail on the strings, every resonance in the guitar body, every little bit of rosin on the bow string. I'm probably weird like that, I don't want my music to sound "fun" or "party-like" or "booming bass, bro", I want it to sound exactly like what is on the recording, warts and all. And that's enough borderline-audiophile bullshit from me. I just love these headphones. They're not for everyone, but they're definitely for me. And I've only burned them in for ~5-6 hours so far 
KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 09:58
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https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/02/pono-player-review-a-tall-refreshing-drink-of-snake-oil/ Ars' review of the Pono.
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Feb 2, 2015 10:46
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Khablam posted:ABX is dumb and won't work, because music is art and science can't quantify art. It can also be thrown off by having parts of the system set up wrong, where the distortion can overwhelm the part you are trying to hear, eg cables being plugged in the wrong way or CDs being played live without an anti-jitter treatment. Wow do you even know anything about audio? Cables must be burned in using PINK NOISE. Using white noise just gets you cables that are burned in on the high end but muddy and indistinct on the lows. ...I now feel like I should put together a 'cable burninator' and sell it for $600. I'll sell a burninator that does it in half the time for $1500. 
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Feb 2, 2015 12:50
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88h88 posted:Wow do you even know anything about audio? Cables must be burned in using PINK NOISE. Using white noise just gets you cables that are burned in on the high end but muddy and indistinct on the lows. Bespoke artisanal frequency spectrum profiles.
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Feb 2, 2015 13:18
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88h88 posted:Wow do you even know anything about audio? Cables must be burned in using PINK NOISE. Using white noise just gets you cables that are burned in on the high end but muddy and indistinct on the lows. You're way behind the times: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/cablecooker.htm http://www.haglabs.com/collections/break-in-devices
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Feb 2, 2015 14:02
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Mine will actually burn the cables though, to show that they're pumping hardcore current down them. Your cables ain't poo poo if they're not hot to the point of glowing (firing a million volts down them widens the signal path lowering the s/n ratio giving the music a far wider path to travel down adding a more accurate soundstage etc etc etc blah blah blah...)
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Feb 2, 2015 14:40
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KozmoNaut posted:You're way behind the times: Holy poo poo, there really is a sucker born every minute.
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Feb 2, 2015 14:53
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88h88 posted:Mine will actually burn the cables though, to show that they're pumping hardcore current down them. Your cables ain't poo poo if they're not hot to the point of glowing (firing a million volts down them widens the signal path lowering the s/n ratio giving the music a far wider path to travel down adding a more accurate soundstage etc etc etc blah blah blah...) High voltage won't do anything, apart from being a major safety hazard. To really warm up the sound, you need amperage, and lots of it. Normal 18AWG lamp cord is rated to carry 13A, and thicker cable will obviously be able to carry more. I figure you should start out with a "low burn" at 20A, just to get things going. Then increase gradually in steps of 5A until
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Feb 2, 2015 15:01
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KozmoNaut posted:And that's enough borderline-audiophile bullshit from me. I just love these headphones. They're not for everyone, but they're definitely for me. Yeah, the Beyerdynamic DT880 are seriously top notch headphones. A lot of headphones have garbage transient response, especially in the bass, but the DT880 are one of the few headphones that don't have this issue. Its so good that you can easily tackle that treble spike that some people find bothersome by EQing down the 5kHz - 10kHz region by a few decibels. Were the DT880 born as a studio headphone? Its funny how to bothered to put damping material into the DT880 while completely omit this with their audiophile T series.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:02
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KozmoNaut posted:High voltage won't do anything, apart from being a major safety hazard. And it has to be DC, because that actually makes electrons flow in one direction. AC would just make them oscillate in the same position which makes the soundstage static.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:04
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So who wants to make the kickstarter and get rich?
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Feb 2, 2015 15:08
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Chafe posted:Were the DT880 born as a studio headphone? Its funny how to bothered to put damping material into the DT880 while completely omit this with their audiophile T series. Beyerdynamic have always been prominent in the studio/recording industry, and a bunch of their consumer model have their roots in the pro audio segment, especially the 770s, 880s and 990s. The difference between the consumer and pro versions of those? The pros clamp a little harder on your head, and they come in slightly different colors. That's it. That Beyerdynamic is a pro audio company at heart is fairly evident. They still make products that look like this, in TYOOL 2015:  "Don't fix what isn't broken". Similarly, I have had a set of DT-231s for longer than I can honestly remember, but I do know that I bought them to use with a discman many years ago. Those headphones have been through just about every kind of abuse, but they just keep on trucking, despite running over the cable with my office chair, having them yanked off my head by the cable, that sort of thing. They still make them, probably 100% unchanged, and they're an amazing bargain for how great they sound. Lately, a DT-235 model has come along in the consumer section of the site, which is completely identical apart from slightly larger frequency range (2hz in the bass, 2kHz in the treble. On paper, at least), and it comes in white and black instead of drab green. Every replacement part has the exact same part number between the two. Similarly, there are the DT-234 and MMX2 headset versions. Again, the only differences seems to be drab green vs. black, a slightly wider frequency range and maybe higher sensitivity on the consumer model. Again the spare parts are completely identical. But because the DT-234 is sold for "professional intercom applications" and the MMX2 is sold for "gaming and multimedia", the latter is cheaper and comes with a USB audio interface. Product segmentation 
KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 15:23
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Probably the wrong thread to ask, but I currently use a pair of DT990s - is there a huge difference between them and the 880s? Edit: I use them for studio monitoring and mixing - usually at night when I can't crank up the HR824s. synthetik fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 15:24
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synthetik posted:Probably the wrong thread to ask, but I currently use a pair of DT990s - is there a huge difference between them and the 880s? I haven't heard the 990s, but supposedly they have a more "fun" or "lively" sound. Think "graphic EQ with the bass and treble slightly boosted", where the 880s are more "flat" or "neutral" in their sound. They're also priced identically on Beyerdynamic's site, which supports the idea that they're equally good headphones, but made for slightly different tastes.
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Feb 2, 2015 15:29
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synthetik posted:Probably the wrong thread to ask, but I currently use a pair of DT990s - is there a huge difference between them and the 880s? DT990 is your typical fun headphone with huge midbass and treble hump:  DT880 is a lot more even:  Decay measurements are better on the DT880 but the DT990 isn't horrible or anything (its really good). Its far better than, say, your typical Grado or AKG headphone that can sound sibilant and just plain nasty. Chafe fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 15:42
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I think I might be going crazy but I also think I hear differences between DACs. I know that there is a unique sum of sine waves for a given set of samples, but I guess the real difference is in the filtering stage?
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Feb 2, 2015 16:31
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Thanks! I might have too see if I can do a swap with someone, I have noticed differences in mastering between headphones and monitors, but I don't think I ever put two and two together.
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Feb 2, 2015 16:33
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^^^^ There's a big difference in sound between my Adam A5Xs and my DT-880s. Despite the much-vaunted high-performance ART-X tweeter in the Adams, there's a lot more treble in the Beyerdynamics. I wouldn't say it's "better" as such, but it's definitely more prominent. But of course, that sort of thing can be tuned with a bit of high shelf and tweeter level tweaking on the monitors. That's what those control are for, anyway.Chill Callahan posted:I think I might be going crazy but I also think I hear differences between DACs. I know that there is a unique sum of sine waves for a given set of samples, but I guess the real difference is in the filtering stage? Well, depending on how those DACs are implemented, there could be audible differences. For instance, some audiophiles insist on using NOS (non-oversampling) DACs or filterless DACs, which will definitely have some audible effects compared to a properly-implemented DAC. When you say "DAC", do you plug it into your existing stereo, or do you plugs your headphones directly into it? Different headphone outputs can have different output impedances, and that can actually have an audible effect if the output impedance is to high compared to the impedance of your headphones. Can you give a rundown of what you're using? KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 17:10
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I plug in different sources (DAC in my TV, phone, iPod, noisy soundcard in my computer, CD player, discrete DAC, etc.) to my amp powering a set of speakers and hear (what I think) subtle differences between all of them.
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Feb 2, 2015 17:50
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Do you have a friend you can bring over maybe to DBT, or would that be inconvenient? My gut is that it's more likely it's just a loudness difference in the output, but maybe that's because I'm a philistine with poor hearing who's been fooled by that.
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Feb 2, 2015 18:54
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It's likely not differences the DACs you're hearing but the probably the line-level output preamp in each of those devices that vary widely.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:05
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I have a VU meter and made sure that they were at approximately the same levels. Maybe I'll get a friend over and do a ABX test.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:25
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I'm going to tell you the strange story of a weird, cheap little dj mixer that had not one but two built in usb DACs. Well, it isn't all that exciting, it's just that I had my motherboard's Realtek AC97 going into that mixer as well and by switching default output devices in Windows, you could easily compare them. Same file playing at the same level, going to the same amp and speakers. And there was a huge difference. Whatever went through the mixer's DAC would have a bunch of high frequency content rolled off and would noticably have less stereo separation than what came out of the AC97 (which isn't a great chip to begin with). It really was pretty bad for being noticable on even a cheap set of 2.1 computer speakers. That's probably still partly line-level output preamp differences, but I'm thinking the high frequency roll off might have been related to a worse filter in the DACs. Can't think what other lowpass filter there would be in or before the preamp stage. Correct me if that's a bad assumption, though. Anyway, that was a case where most other external factors were excluded. You rarely get that close to a comparison as clean cut as that. e. That was a new mixer in 2009 I think, if it makes a difference at all. Flipperwaldt fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 19:30
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Flipperwaldt posted:I'm going to tell you the strange story of a weird, cheap little dj mixer that had not one but two built in usb DACs. Well, it isn't all that exciting, it's just that I had my motherboard's Realtek AC97 going into that mixer as well and by switching default output devices in Windows, you could easily compare them. Same file playing at the same level, going to the same amp and speakers. And there was a huge difference. Whatever went through the mixer's DAC would have a bunch of high frequency content rolled off and would noticably have less stereo separation than what came out of the AC97 (which isn't a great chip to begin with). It really was pretty bad for being noticable on even a cheap set of 2.1 computer speakers. Motherboard sound is nearly invariably garbage due to EMI and various other bullshit. 
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Feb 2, 2015 19:42
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Wasabi the J posted:Motherboard sound is nearly invariably garbage due to EMI and various other bullshit.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:44
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Flipperwaldt posted:And that made the usb DACs built into the mixer noticably worse how? What mixer is it? I have a Behringer Q802 USB, and it's a noisy piece of hot garbage.
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Feb 2, 2015 19:54
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KillHour posted:What mixer is it? I have a Behringer Q802 USB, and it's a piece of hot garbage. e. Want to say that I do know the difference between bad signal to noise level, which I'd expect, and frequency roll off or bad stereo separation. Flipperwaldt fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 19:58
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Chill Callahan posted:I plug in different sources (DAC in my TV, phone, iPod, noisy soundcard in my computer, CD player, discrete DAC, etc.) to my amp powering a set of speakers and hear (what I think) subtle differences between all of them. There will definitely be large difference in output levels. The Red Book (audio CD) standard stipulates a maximum of 2Vrms output at 0dBFS, most non-portable consumer electronics have adopted this standard. So two different CD players should theoretically output at the exact same level, but small variations do exist, obviously. For portable electronics, the landscape is a hell of a lot more complicated. Output levels can vary wildly, based available battery power, EU regulated maximum SPL and all kinds of other stuff. To give you a guideline, an iPhone will output 1Vrms at 0dBFS and the volume set to 100%. A lot of players can't even deliver that much. So it's very likely that you're simply hearing minute level differences. Even a 0.1dB difference can have an effect on whether you perceive the sound as better or worse. Chill Callahan posted:I have a VU meter and made sure that they were at approximately the same levels. Maybe I'll get a friend over and do a ABX test. You have to pretty darn precise with level matching, within 0.1dB. There could very well be a difference, especially if some of your hardware is old (pre-90s, pretty much) and/or super cheap. That said, even super cheap DACs are actually good enough that their limits lie beyond the limits of human hearing, and thus any difference is mostly academic.
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Feb 2, 2015 20:02
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