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Rich people giving away their wealth after a lifetime of concentrating it into fewer and fewer hands isn't a solution to wealth concentration, especially when the few rich people doing it still end up richer than ever, literally concentrating it faster than they are giving it away.
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Aug 15, 2023 23:56
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TheMuffinMan posted:i have a feeling you aren't seeing things as they are.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:07
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VitalSigns posted:Rich people giving away their wealth after a lifetime of concentrating it into fewer and fewer hands isn't a solution to wealth concentration, especially when the few rich people doing it still end up richer than ever, literally concentrating it faster than they are giving it away. go read the whole article (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2023 00:08
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TheMuffinMan posted:i have a feeling you aren't seeing things as they are. I'm sorry, sir, but your caveats... ...they're-ah too big for ah dah door to ah dah room.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:09
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TheMuffinMan posted:i have a feeling you aren't seeing things as they are. That's demonstrably not true. Rent is completely absurd and out of control in many areas. Even if you're taking home $20 an hour, that's about $3,200 a month. Rent on a one bedroom apartment in my area is in excess of $2,000 a month. That's before utilities, which have also increased massively in recent years. Then you've got food, car payments, gas, health insurance, and other miscellaneous expenses. Ideally you'd be socking away some of it for retirement as well. There's almost nothing left actually enjoy at that point. And that's folks who are taking home $20/hour. Not being paid $20/hour. Minimum wage is well below that. And that also misses that a lot of people at or under that earning point have no choice but to take part time work, which means they may not even get a full 40 hours a week from one job, and then have to balance two jobs, which is even more gas, more wear and tear, more stress, etc.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:09
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theshim posted:The word "comfortable" is doing some real heavy lifting in there, buddy so you need more than a roof, a bed, a fridge, a bathroom, a computer, a smartphone, and a car? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2023 00:09
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Everyone can't work 40 hours a week there aren't enough jobs for that, by design. We saw what happened when the labor market got too tight last year, the bourgeoisie freaked out about wage increases and demanded central bank policy to raise interest rates and increase unemployment to discipline labor.
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Aug 16, 2023 |
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Aug 16, 2023 00:23
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VitalSigns posted:Everyone can't work 40 hours a week there aren't enough jobs for that, by design. We saw what happened when the labor market got too tight last year, the bourgeoisie freaked out about wage increases and demanded central bank policy to raise interest rates and increase unemployment to discipline labor. i think there are enough jobs for that actually. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2023 00:30
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TheMuffinMan posted:so you need more than a roof, a bed, a fridge, a bathroom, a computer, a smartphone, and a car? A whole list of necessities and one luxury - a computer, which if you are work-from-home becomes a necessity as well. Yeah, that sure is great comfort and not running at a lot of people's absolute minimum required in modern society to stay sheltered, presentable, perpetually in contact, and able to reach the job that lets you keep running at the minimum.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:32
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disposablewords posted:A whole list of necessities and one luxury - a computer, which if you are work-from-home becomes a necessity as well. Yeah, that sure is great comfort and not running at a lot of people's absolute minimum required in modern society to stay sheltered, presentable, perpetually in contact, and able to reach the job that lets you keep running at the minimum. i live in southern california and i could live off of minimum wage easily.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:33
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TheMuffinMan posted:i think there are enough jobs for that actually. What do you think the unemployment rate measures?
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Aug 16, 2023 00:35
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Cali's minimum wage is $15.50 and most places are well lower than that. Federal is $7.25 and plenty of states run with that. Your anecdote is not country-wide reality.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:36
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TheMuffinMan posted:i live in southern california and i could live off of minimum wage easily. Well if you could do it, surely it's true for the rest of the country. Wrap it up fellas, this guy's figured out American economic policy. This isn't the most serious thread but even still, you're giving some of the actual libertarians we make fun of a run for rose-colored optimism.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:36
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forkboy84 posted:On the other hand have you considered every other example in the history of capitalism of advancing technology not being used to more fairly compensate workers but instead being used to reward shareholders with greater value?
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Aug 16, 2023 00:37
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disposablewords posted:Cali's minimum wage is $15.50 and most places are well lower than that. Federal is $7.25 and plenty of states run with that. Your anecdote is not country-wide reality. the cost of living is also much higher in california than the lowest cost of living states
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Aug 16, 2023 00:42
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Well if you could do it, surely it's true for the rest of the country. Wrap it up fellas, this guy's figured out American economic policy. uhm i could still live off of minimum wage 40 hours a week
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Aug 16, 2023 00:44
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Ahahahaha they think every job gets full time! Including the ones riding hardest on minimum wage as much as possible! Oh, that's precious! "I can do it, why can't you" isn't a proof, it's a bland assertion with nothing to back it up. Large numbers of other people are expressing serious economic problems, but you solve it all by, uh... being a solo person living minimally off of their own income with zero dependents or health issues? Yeah, no, it just means you aren't bringing anything remotely connected to reality to the table.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:49
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disposablewords posted:Ahahahaha they think every job gets full time! Including the ones riding hardest on minimum wage as much as possible! Oh, that's precious! oh drat yeah a partner would make getting a mortgage much easier. also there is Medi-Cal in california.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:51
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I said dependent, not partner. Also, getting medical doesn't support your point better. It supports everyone else's. You're getting a major expense knocked off that, again, large swathes of the country are facing, in exchange for taxes that are actually a lot cheaper than having to pay your own medical bills or an insurance company. Like, wow, you're just proudly proclaiming that your easy-mode settings are what make you more financially savvy and thrifty.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:53
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I, a middle aged white guy, have no issues getting money and not dying. Therefore society has no problems.
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Aug 16, 2023 00:53
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disposablewords posted:I said dependent, not partner. Also, getting medical doesn't support your point better. It supports everyone else's. You're getting a major expense knocked off that, again, large swathes of the country are facing, in exchange for taxes that are actually a lot cheaper than having to pay your own medical bills or an insurance company. Like, wow, you're just proudly proclaiming that your easy-mode settings are what make you more financially savvy and thrifty. can't you just apply for medicaid
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Aug 16, 2023 00:56
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My success is down to a good work ethic, foregoing some simple luxuries, and a small parental loan. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2023 00:58
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TheMuffinMan posted:can't you just apply for medicaid  You are just precious. But to play along, you know a lot of states refused medicaid expansions in the wake of the ACA, are doing their best to lard them down with work requirements and other forms of means-testing/gatekeeping, and indeed threaten to cut what little aid there is, right? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2023 00:59
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Captain_Maclaine posted:
you know medical issues are a funny thing. they tend to happen to people who can afford to pay them
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Aug 16, 2023 01:01
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I don't see a UBI happening in a robot AI future. The social system would be too unstable. Millions of people subsisting on a basic income asking why the few on top live in impossible luxury because they inherited a robot factory from dad and aren't any more deserving than anyone else. There'd be too much unrest, you can't let them vote because they'd vote for redistribution. Best case they'd come up with fake jobs for us to work to 'earn' our basic income that would keep us too exhausted to agitate, not enough jobs for everyone of course, so the fear of being unemployed and homeless helps keep us in line too. And undermines sympathy for our fellow man (anyone who works 40 hours a week can afford a roof, the homeless are lazy) Worst case the ultrarich decide we're more trouble than we're worth, wipe us out as inferior specimens and do eugenics among themselves.
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Aug 16, 2023 01:01
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VitalSigns posted:I don't see a UBI happening in a robot AI future. The social system would be too unstable. Millions of people subsisting on a basic income asking why the few on top live in impossible luxury because they inherited a robot factory from dad and aren't any more deserving than anyone else. There'd be too much unrest, you can't let them vote because they'd vote for redistribution. what is this luxury you speak of? you're just a human being right. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2023 01:04
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also video games could be a source of wealth. that way everyone gets a chance to be rich. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2023 01:06
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VitalSigns posted:They are selflessly giving away all their wealth yet are richer than when they started giving away all their wealth. So weird... Almost like their charities are kicking back money to them.
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Aug 16, 2023 01:12
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Hate to spoil the fun but this feels like a troll. Nobody left on this aging dead comedy forum is young enough not to know that unemployment or medical bankruptcy, empirical facts which the government publishes statistics on, exist.
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Aug 16, 2023 01:14
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Yeah, true. Sorry for getting drawn in on it. gently caress's sake, I need an anger outlet other than stupid assholes online. Anyway. The UBI/AI future discussion reminds me of a dude back in college who was all in on the idea of transhumanism via genetic enhancement. He was certain that nobody would or could keep it relatively contained. That even if such enhancement was possible there wouldn't be some super-rich enhanced overclass because it would breed out into the general population. Which. Okay, he wasn't stupid, per se, but he was definitely an idealist of the "reads techno-utopian blogs" sort more than someone aware of, like... the rich. And what fuckers they demonstrably are. Or even the more practical matter of how long it'd take for genetic enhancements to spread via reproduction from an elite cohort to the world, and how that kind of opportunity could be used against people. It's just another kind of technology that wouldn't fix this, or if it did it'd be at a rate even your standard Concerned Centrist would think was a mite slow.
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Aug 16, 2023 01:35
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TheMuffinMan posted:uhm i could still live off of minimum wage 40 hours a week No, no you cannot. I broke down the math upthread. Making substantially more than minimum wage has you paying something like 2/3 of your income as rent. Making just minimum wage would put you at paying basically 100% of your income for a roof over your head, and maybe enough money to keep the lights on. This is especially true in SoCal.
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Aug 16, 2023 01:49
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TheMuffinMan posted:you know medical issues are a funny thing. they tend to happen to people who can afford to pay them Let me ask you this then: how often do produce clerks have to chase you away from the cantaloupes?
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Aug 16, 2023 02:41
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TheMuffinMan posted:you know medical issues are a funny thing. they tend to happen to people who can afford to pay them it's true, demand is elastic and if you give out free healthcare then my economics curves say everyone will take infinity healthcares
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Aug 16, 2023 03:59
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Lottery of Babylon posted:it's true, demand is elastic and if you give out free healthcare then my economics curves say everyone will take infinity healthcares Yep, that's why in every country where it is still free to go to the GP or the hospital when you are sick, literally every single person lives in a medical clinic or hospital. I'm posting from the hospital right now. I'm having a second gall bladder put in, they're going to take it back out next week and put it in someone else. How many lungs do you think is too many? I've got 5, but I'm thinking of adding a 6th. EDIT: I mean if getting septicemia didn't result in a choice between bankrupty or death, everyone would be getting it all the time, for fun.
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Aug 16, 2023 05:35
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I took three free hospital rooms so I could rent the other two out on airbnb. This is what separates the galts from the gnats
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Aug 16, 2023 05:50
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VitalSigns posted:Worst case the ultrarich decide we're more trouble than we're worth, wipe us out as inferior specimens and do eugenics among themselves. I'm sure we've discussed it in this thread or some other similarly themed one, but Altered Carbon (I've only seen the TV show, don't hurt me  ) had a pretty good basic premise for this. The ultra-rich live forever, so there's not even the necessity of the "parental loan" thing, a single person can just amass a personal fortune for centuries, and enjoy life raping slaves on space stations, or have slaves fight each other to death in their impossibly tall sky mansions. In the show the life-extending technology is used, albeit in a far more nightmarish fashion, on the working plebs too, but nothing says that in our future dystopia the rich would have to share. Would there even be a need to wipe out the ephemeral poor, when lording over them as literal immortal god-kings were a possibility? Famines and diseases would keep the numbers in check, anyway.And! If the immortality drugs and treatments weren't state secrets, just cost a fortune it took someone 2 or 3 regular human life spans to accrue in a "good" job, well, anyone could become a god king, you just need work ethics, right?
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Aug 16, 2023 09:07
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In a world with perfect AI replacing all jobs, there are no poor because the rich let them all starve to death long ago.
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Aug 16, 2023 10:32
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Or we unite and use AI to replace the rich. What does a king or CEO really do that can't be AI'd away?
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Aug 16, 2023 10:57
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Now I'm picturing SHODAN deciding, in all her glory, not to make hideous flesh creatures but instead turn into Scrooge McDuck and take over the world's financial systems. Is that the plot to a Deus Ex game?
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Aug 16, 2023 11:13
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VitalSigns posted:Best case they'd come up with fake jobs for us to work to 'earn' our basic income that would keep us too exhausted to agitate, not enough jobs for everyone of course, so the fear of being unemployed and homeless helps keep us in line too. And undermines sympathy for our fellow man (anyone who works 40 hours a week can afford a roof, the homeless are lazy) So, current state, right?
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Aug 16, 2023 12:46
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