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More like Yawning Portal, eh fellas?
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Jan 5, 2017 19:48
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Kaysette posted:More like Yawning Portal, eh fellas? That's literally the name of it, so yes. It's an odd choice - the Yawning Portal is famous for being an entrance to Undermountain, not a bunch of other disconnected adventures. There's a better place for that in D&D history - the plane-traveling World Serpent Inn. But that's in Cormyr, not the areas they covered in the SCAG. I kind of wonder if they were planning an Undermountain product and got cold feet. Additionally those are some funny choices. There's 1e, 3e, and 5e adventures. No 2e, OD&D, D&D, or 4e adventures. Well, unless they mean the entire book of 4e's Against the Giants, not the 1e original. Or if they're not doing the whole why didn't they just say which parts? Edit: also what did they do to poor Durnan, he got a bad dye job and he looks like a hipster. Arivia fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 19:59
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I ran my first game the other day and it was a lot of fun. Definitely give out 6-8 extra HP though as someone suggested in this thread. It ended up being the difference between a really fun session and a TPK.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:06
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Seconding the TotM vs. Minis notions. The main game I DM is done in TotM, with maybe some rough geographic layout sketches to give people an idea of the lay of the land. I take care to be descriptive of people's locations and I warn someone if they're going to be passing through an attack-of-opportunity area (assuming they were capable of seeing it, or aware of a creature's location when they moved). One of the group players loves using minis and while I wasn't initially hot on the idea, I asked him to let me roll with TotM while I learned the ropes, which he agreed to, and he's told me he's perfectly happy at this point not using minis. My 7 year old son took a liking to the game recently, so I brought him to a few Adventurer League games at the LGS. They use minis and gridmats exclusively for everything. The amount of metagaming and rules manipulating when you have grids out turned me off on it, personally. I understand where people want to be able to maximize tools and space for advantage, but it just feels so... sterile. Having the players describe trying to cast above a monster or right under its feet, or to a spot behind it so as not to clip their comrades feels so much richer than "I place my 1-inch pixelated circle exactly here to corner-clip these two monsters and completely avoid any players." It doesn't help that there's a Fighter, polearm master with mobility feat in the party who absolutely abuses the 10ft reach/attack of opportunity mechanics and free disengages he gets with that combo. He's also the 65 year old fat grog who eats 1500 calories of salads and sandwiches at a table and has 6 more magic items than anyone else at the table, yet will constantly argue that whatever rewards we got would be better for him and he'd trade off some trinket he owns for it. One for the catpiss thread eventually...
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Jan 5, 2017 23:23
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Hi my bf got the three 5e starter books for christmas and Ive slowly been reading through them. Cant wait to try a campaign with these rules since they seem pretty fun! 
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Jan 5, 2017 23:40
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Control Volume posted:Hi my bf got the three 5e starter books for christmas and Ive slowly been reading through them. Cant wait to try a campaign with these rules since they seem pretty fun! Have fun and don't be afraid to change or make up rules on the fly as the system really needs that skill in order to work fluidly.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:46
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Yeah thats usually my style anyways, Paranoia is one of my favorite systems just for that reason
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Jan 5, 2017 23:48
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In my group we kinda swap fluidly between tabletop grid and totm based on how "serious" the combat encounter is meant to be or even the mood of the evening.
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Jan 5, 2017 23:49
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koreban posted:It doesn't help that there's a Fighter, polearm master with mobility feat in the party who absolutely abuses the 10ft reach/attack of opportunity mechanics and free disengages he gets with that combo. Can you explain exactly how to abuse those rules? I'd love to optimise a polearm fighter for an upcoming game that's gonna use a grid. Doing OP poo poo that pushes the rules will be an expectation with this particular group.
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Jan 6, 2017 00:54
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Reminder that being forced out of range does not provoke an opportunity attack.
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Jan 6, 2017 01:52
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mango sentinel posted:Reminder that being forced out of range does not provoke an opportunity attack. How about compelled movement from fear spells?
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Jan 6, 2017 02:49
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jng2058 posted:Lots of great advice! Man, this is perfect. Exactly what I needed. I really appreciate the write up. I'm keeping this bookmarked for reference. Thanks a ton!
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Jan 6, 2017 02:52
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AlphaDog posted:Can you explain exactly how to abuse those rules? I'd love to optimise a polearm fighter for an upcoming game that's gonna use a grid. Doing OP poo poo that pushes the rules will be an expectation with this particular group. 10ft reach means anything that tries exiting your reach you get to attack (as a reaction? i forget), mobile gives you +10ft movement and: When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not. So I'd assume something like: -use partial movement to get into range -attack -run away with rest of movement, not provoking an attack of opportunity Add multiple attacks per turn and that gets real fun with guerrilla tactics on packs of enemies.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:00
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Novum posted:How about compelled movement from fear spells? Yes, unless something else grants them immunity to OOO such as they move via teleportation.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:00
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AlphaDog posted:Can you explain exactly how to abuse those rules? I'd love to optimise a polearm fighter for an upcoming game that's gonna use a grid. Doing OP poo poo that pushes the rules will be an expectation with this particular group. He's got something like 40 feet of movement, so he'll move through the grid until he's 10ft from one or two creatures. He's got a magical Glaive that he had silvered on both ends which he uses to one-two the creatures with his polearm master attacks. Then he moves out of range, usually by one square, and generally in the direction of the party. Then, once the creature's initiatives come up, they move one square closer and get an extra bop from his attack of opportunity strike (which is not a reaction) and with Sentinel, the creatures just stop there, so they never reach melee range with the party unless they take extra movement to go way around his melee range. With him never provoking attacks of opportunity from creatures, he just flips around the battlefield locking down creatures from ever entering melee and dishing out piles of damage. He took the champion martial archetype so his crit range is 18-20 or something silly like that. It comes up a bunch when he's making 3-4 attacks of opportunity a turn on top of his 2+bonus bop with the butt of his glaive. With a human variant race you, too could be this cool at level 4. By level 8 you could be at 18-19str. It's cool and powerful and makes all the "martials suck so bad this edition" arguments null, but on grid it's *so* gamey and exploitable. Takes a lot of the threat out of minion fights, allowing everyone else to focus on opposing casters and ranged damage. We're playing SKT out of the book, so it's not like the DM will just change all opponents to be carrying pikes or halberds. Adventure League is silly like that.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:01
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koreban posted:He's got something like 40 feet of movement, so he'll move through the grid until he's 10ft from one or two creatures. He's got a magical Glaive that he had silvered on both ends which he uses to one-two the creatures with his polearm master attacks. Then he moves out of range, usually by one square, and generally in the direction of the party. Then, once the creature's initiatives come up, they move one square closer and get an extra bop from his attack of opportunity strike (which is not a reaction) and with Sentinel, the creatures just stop there, so they never reach melee range with the party unless they take extra movement to go way around his melee range. I must be missing something because entering range of him doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity and he can only make one attack of opportunity per turn. Edit: and sentinel only invokes if they leave his range of their own free will, as with all OOO. It also doesn't stop movement. Barudak fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 03:04
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Novum posted:How about compelled movement from fear spells? To expand on this, if the enemy uses their own movement (or an action, reaction, etc.) to flee, whether forced or not, they provoke. If an effect moves an enemy without using their own movement, they don't. Examples: Fear and Dissonant Whispers provoke OAs, knock back from eldrich blast doesn't.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:09
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Yeah, Im phone posting and not near my books but I'm pretty sure thats not how OA or Sentinel works. Edit: in response to Koreban and not the 2 posters above me.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:10
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Barudak posted:I must be missing something because entering range of him doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity and he can only make one attack of opportunity per turn. Polearm master (second point): While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter the reach you have with that weapon. Sentinel (first point): When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn."
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Jan 6, 2017 03:14
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Barudak posted:I must be missing something because entering range of him doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity and he can only make one attack of opportunity per turn. Doesn't Polearm Master allow you to make AOO when they enter your reach? I'm not seeing anything that lets him make more than one per turn, but the rest of it seems to work correctly.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:14
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koreban posted:Polearm master (second point): Ah its the polearm bit. Regardless, that trick can only work on one enemy at a time since you only get one opportunity attack a turn. Also, do you not fight anything with ranged attacks whatsoever? Like, even starter goblins have ranged bows and they can switch weapons during their movement or attack, presumably regardless of if they got hit by sentinel.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:19
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You never get more than one OA per round because making an OA uses your reaction. You can't use another reaction until after the start of your next turn. Mobility prevents a creature from making an OA on you if you attacked it this turn - as soon as your turn's over, it can do so again. You can only get the second attack from polearm master when you take an attack action (ie, not an opportunity attack). The polearm master attack uses your bonus action. It works once per round, and only on your turn. This guy could move in, attack, get a bonus attack from polearm master, move out, then stop one enemy with a Sentinel OA, but I can't see how he could use the polearm master bonus attack on that OA, let alone on the 3+ OAs he's supposed to be making every round. I'm not seeing anything that prevents him getting mobbed or that prevents all but one bad guy rushing past him. If I've missed something I'd love to hear about it though. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 03:35
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Want to be even more OP? Just cast fireball.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:37
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Barudak posted:Ah its the polearm bit. Regardless, that trick can only work on one enemy at a time since you only get one opportunity attack a turn. Well, here's where RAW comes in. The ability doesn't say "use your reaction to make an opportunity attack". You're right about the polearm master attack, and I accounted for the two attacks a fighter gets by level 5, plus one bop from polearm master. e: yeah, I wasn't totally clear in the post, he only took one polearm bonus attack, but he swung for his two attacks, plus 3-4 opportunity attacks. Again, RAW, which adventurer league runs on. The opportunity attack description on p.195 states that if a creature leaves your melee, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack. Polearm master doesn't specify using your reaction to make the attack. koreban fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 03:39
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koreban posted:Well, here's where RAW comes in. The ability doesn't say "use your reaction to make an opportunity attack". It doesn't matter because an opportunity attack, inherently, uses your reaction. It's one of the few terms in the game that are defined in such a way they don't need to repeat it in natural language every time it occurs for it to work the same way. Further, "provoke" in the context of an opportunity attack in 53 actually doesn't mean you use the opportunity attack, only that you can. Here, straight from the rules: "To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature." Basically, he can sort of maybe kite one foe, but only if that foe has no ranged attack since again it can just swap weapons at will when deciding to attack him.
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Jan 6, 2017 03:53
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tl;dr Action economy matters. also RTFM.
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Jan 6, 2017 04:35
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Who's the DM in this situation? They gotta shut that down, as he is clearly violating the rules. Primarily the ultimate rule of everyone should be having a good time.
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Jan 6, 2017 04:35
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that's right, make sure the one guy who's an effective martial is immediately prevented from doing that.
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Jan 6, 2017 04:40
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I'm back with my books here. The relevant parts:PHB page 190 posted:Reactions PHB page 195 posted:You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack interrupts the provoking creature’s movement, occurring right before the creature leaves your reach. Without polearm master, every creature entering your reach provokes an OA. That doesn't mean you can make more than one, because opportunity attacks require you to use your reaction. PHB page 168 posted:While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach. Polearm master changes when an OA is provoked. It says nothing that would override "to make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction". "You can do this whenever you like" isn't RAI or RAW. mastershakeman posted:that's right, make sure the one guy who's an effective martial is immediately prevented from doing that. Yeah, "A fighters OAs don't consume their reaction" would be a great houserule, but it's loving bizarre when someone's trying to say that it's what's in the book but only in this one specific corner case. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 04:41
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That was the GM's ruling. The feat didn't say that the opportunity attack required you to use your reaction. Virtually every other action that can be taken as a reaction has that specific language in the text of the ability. It's poor writing and classic RAW/RAI conundrum, but that's how it goes. Also SKT is full of barbarian tribes and giants that come equipped with greatclubs or greataxes so sentinel fighter guy is the front line extraordinaire, while the ranger, warlock, wizard and tempest cleric sweep up the ranged game. I'm the nature cleric/polearm master who bops things that get close to me, but otherwise just hide and heal and create water for the wizard to freeze so things slip and fall, when I'm not the sole healer for the group.
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Jan 6, 2017 04:44
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It's been rightly pointed out that the big counter to this is ranged attacks. Take, for example, this guy having a magic item that says "you have an endless amount of opportunity attacks and your reaction is never used by them". That lets him do exactly this. So what? The enemies get stopped cold and pull out bows and stay away from him on subsequent turns. Big deal
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Jan 6, 2017 04:46
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AlphaDog posted:I'm back with my books here. The relevant parts: If only the PHB listed page 190 in the index for opportunity attack. I'll bring it up next Tuesday, but it's been going for a while now, so I think he's going to just let it ride for now. Either way, it's a good gimmick for a build.
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Jan 6, 2017 04:46
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koreban posted:If only the PHB listed page 190 in the index for opportunity attack. I'll bring it up next Tuesday, but it's been going for a while now, so I think he's going to just let it ride for now. Yeah, the cross-referencing leaves something to be desired, but both "opportunity attack" and "reactions" in the index point you to their separate, relevant sections. It sounds like the problem of "already knowing D&D" and then importing an idea from whatever previous edition without understanding how this one differs. Something (or many things) like this have come up for me with every edition change since my first one, which was BECMI > AD&D. For example, 3 years after 3rd ed released I played a game with a group who were still rolling 1d10 for initiative, and subtracting any bonuses because in D&D initiative's 1d10 and low roll goes first. Regardless of why, there's no way I'd make it fly with the group I'm going to play with. I showed it to the DM anyway, because you never know. Rocketing around the battlefield stopping everyone in their tracks is exactly what I want out of a fighter. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 05:03
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Oh, yeah. It was goofy and cool and I figured people here were overly harsh on fighters as a result. I still think they are overly harsh on martial style, even without that single gimmick. Either way, I'd probably let it slide in my own game because I'm not locked into printed encounters and profiles and would adapt my enemies' tactics to account for it.
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Jan 6, 2017 05:24
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On the range attack note, I don't have SKT, but every giant I can find and every humanoid enemy in Phandelver has a ranged attack of some kind. Like, giants especially have a ranged attack that on an attack-per-attack basis deals more damage than their great-club swing. If you're all cool with the way their ability is working, that's fine because its your table, but fundamentally it shouldn't be breaking the encounter system at all. It's a niche thing that, in RAW in 5e, is at best a small benefit. Which, honestly, is a statement that covers waaaay too much of martial characters toolsets.
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Jan 6, 2017 05:26
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"Poking these guys with sticks too frequently is OP and is breaking the game." *shapeshifts into ancient dragon*
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Jan 6, 2017 05:42
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AlphaDog posted:It sounds like the problem of "already knowing D&D" and then importing an idea from whatever previous edition without understanding how this one differs. Something (or many things) like this have come up for me with every edition change since my first one, which was BECMI > AD&D. For example, 3 years after 3rd ed released I played a game with a group who were still rolling 1d10 for initiative, and subtracting any bonuses because in D&D initiative's 1d10 and low roll goes first. I think it'd be an interesting experiment to survey 5e players to ask them if there are rules in 5e for catching on fire, and how much damage it deals. And then check how many say yes, and 1d6 damage per round. Because those are actually 3rd Edition rules.
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Jan 6, 2017 06:00
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I looked up what the heck RAW meant and I cant imagine being the sort of player to rules-lawyer a D&D game lmao
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Jan 6, 2017 17:02
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Control Volume posted:I looked up what the heck RAW meant and I cant imagine being the sort of player to rules-lawyer a D&D game lmao You're surprised that someone would rules lawyer about something they're going to spend 3-4 hours a week, over 4-5 months playing? Happens all the time.
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Jan 6, 2017 17:45
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Control Volume posted:I looked up what the heck RAW meant and I cant imagine being the sort of player to rules-lawyer a D&D game lmao RAW is not necessarily about rules-lawyering. RAW and RAI are simply two different methods of interpreting what a rule actually means. Very few rules, whether from games or actual laws, are so clear that their meaning is always perfectly known to everybody involved.
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Jan 6, 2017 18:06
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