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General Olloth posted:Like, are you not allowed to end on a ladder midway up a building now given the interpretation of not being allowed to end a charge there? Literally everyone in the last tournament I was in was playing it this way lol You should play 30k instead. Its ladder support is out of this world.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:32
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Corrode posted:It really didn't take that long, and is one of those things where people who didn't get it blew it out of all proportion. It was annoying to do say, 10 wounds to a 20 wound unit and still have all 10 guys alive, but a) it didn't work as perfectly as that most of the time and b) it was not actually very complex to do. I remember there being some fuckery involving super low cover saves and FnP but its been so long.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:35
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A previous FAQ also said that it's perfectly fine to end half way up a ruin with wobbly model rule. It's actually still there, in the Stepping into a New Edition FAQ: Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot completely end its move on a floor of ruins when attempting to scale the walls? A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome guidelines in the core rules to identify with your opponent where your model’s actual location is.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:36
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MasterSlowPoke posted:A previous FAQ also said that it's perfectly fine to end half way up a ruin with wobbly model rule. It's actually still there, in the Stepping into a New Edition FAQ: Alright so it's OK for moves but not for charge moves 
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Apr 18, 2018 20:37
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TTerrible posted:It's better balanced because it's better balanced. Thousand Sons Space Wolves Inferno 
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Apr 18, 2018 20:38
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Safety Factor posted:Talons of the Emperor I do not recognise Inferno.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:39
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General Olloth posted:Alright so it's OK for moves but not for charge moves I guess they don't conflict if you take the one from the Rulebook FAQ to be a general rule, and the one from this FAQ that applies only to Infantry. So Infantry can charge up walls, but you can't generally charge up walls.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:40
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MasterSlowPoke posted:I guess they don't conflict if you take the one from the Rulebook FAQ to be a general rule, and the one from this FAQ that applies only to Infantry. So Infantry can charge up walls, but you can't generally charge up walls. In that case you can also FLY charge up walls because you ignore terrain if you FLY? They need a FAQ for the FAQ now. EDIT: Is there anything in the game that doesn't have MONSTER, VEHICLE, INFANTRY, or BIKE? Like technically the core rules cover all this by not allowing non-flying non-infantry to move up to the top floor anyway? What is the FAQ clarifying here?
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Apr 18, 2018 20:42
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MasterSlowPoke posted:I guess they don't conflict if you take the one from the Rulebook FAQ to be a general rule, and the one from this FAQ that applies only to Infantry. So Infantry can charge up walls, but you can't generally charge up walls. But those other units can't charge onto the second floor of a ruin anyways
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Apr 18, 2018 20:43
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Strobe posted:Crisis Spam trip report: Still catching up, so if thid has been said already, I apologise. You can't Drop Zone Clear coming in from homing beacon. DZC Specifically states when arriving from Manta Strike. Or were your suits outside of 9 coming in from Manta? If so carry on! Kilazar fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 20:44
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If 2k points is standard for my local 40k play, would 30k games on average be smaller? I'm intrigued by the game, but not really sure if I want to do a deep dive. Either way it wouldn't be for a while.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:45
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TheBigAristotle posted:If 2k points is standard for my local 40k play, would 30k games on average be smaller? 2k to 2.5k for 30k.You can do very low model count armies if you want.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:46
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Booley posted:But those other units can't charge onto the second floor of a ruin anyways There's also a dumb question about if a razorback with an overcharged plasma gets removed on a 1. They print dumb questions sometimes. quote:EDIT: Is there anything in the game that doesn't have MONSTER, VEHICLE, INFANTRY, or BIKE? Like technically the core rules cover all this by not allowing non-flying non-infantry to move up to the top floor anyway? What is the FAQ clarifying here?
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Apr 18, 2018 20:47
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General Olloth posted:EDIT: Is there anything in the game that doesn't have MONSTER, VEHICLE, INFANTRY, or BIKE? Like technically the core rules cover all this by not allowing non-flying non-infantry to move up to the top floor anyway? What is the FAQ clarifying here? <10 wound Tau battlesuits (e.g. Commander, Crisis, Broadside), though not Stealth Suits, have none of those tags, leaving them in a weird limbo when it comes to some terrain rules. Drones don't have those tags either, for that matter. e: f,b
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Apr 18, 2018 20:51
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General Olloth posted:Alright so it's OK for moves but not for charge moves It's not as " " as you think, really--charge moves are always all-or-nothing; if you can't make it, you don't move at all. So yeah, you can end a regular move mid-climb, but you can't fight while climbing.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:52
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TheChirurgeon posted:It's not as " Alright so say I've climbed the ladder and my model is basically at the top but not ON the top of the building. Then a unit on top of the building assaults my guys on the wall. Tada now I'm fighting while climbing. It's because the terrain rules intention was clearly "gently caress it, the whole thing is a ladder" but the person clarifying assaults said nah.Flavivirus posted:<10 wound Tau battlesuits (e.g. Commander, Crisis, Broadside), though not Stealth Suits, have none of those tags, leaving them in a weird limbo when it comes to some terrain rules. Drones don't have those tags either, for that matter. All that stuff has FLY though which is allowed to ignore terrain and go wherever it wants. (Unless you explicitly houserule totally impassable terrain as suggested as a potential option in the custom terrain section)
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Apr 18, 2018 20:55
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I distinctly remember having a game where I wondered if chariots were technically allowed to climb ruins.
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Apr 18, 2018 20:56
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Der Waffle Mous posted:I distinctly remember having a game where I wondered if chariots were technically allowed to climb ruins. Hmm yeah I guess not if they aren't INFANTRY or FLY. EDIT: Horses can't end charges on walls. Sorry, FW guardsmen!
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Apr 18, 2018 20:57
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MasterSlowPoke posted:There's also a dumb question about if a razorback with an overcharged plasma gets removed on a 1. They print dumb questions sometimes. BEASTS as well, for Wraiths and the Dark Eldar ones. General Olloth posted:Alright so say I've climbed the ladder and my model is basically at the top but not ON the top of the building. Then a unit on top of the building assaults my guys on the wall. You keep bringing up ladders as if that's meaningful but they're not actually a thing in the rules. It's very simple: Non-infantry without FLY cannot end their move on anything but the ground floor of a ruin. Infantry can move through walls and floors. They can't end their move within them. There's no specific rules for moving up or down a ruin. The basic move rules allow you to move in any direction, and include provision for moving vertically so you can climb scenery. Most people still houserule this as 3" up and down a ruin because that's how it was in previous editions, but that's not actually a rule. The FAQ answer that MSP referred to doesn't let you hang in the air. Again, it's wobbly model as it's supposed to be used - you have enough move to get your base onto the ruin, but placing the model there would cause it to fall off (let's say you moved 6", and you had to move 2.5" horizontally and 3" vertically, so that when you reached the first floor your remaining .5" of a move is enough to be on the ruin but will mean your poo poo drops and breaks if you try and place it there). That doesn't mean you can warp up and get bonus move, or place a model where it couldn't normally be placed. Der Waffle Mous posted:I remember there being some fuckery involving super low cover saves and FnP but its been so long. Nob Bikes had a 4+ cover save all the time for being Ork Warbikes, and a Painboy gave them FNP as well. They were very durable, and the wound allocation made them a bit more so than normal; the real gripe with them was e.g. someone firing a bunch of heavy bolters and a krak missile at them, where the Ork player would allocate out the wounds so that both krak missiles hit one dude and killed him, and then the HB shots did a wound or two each to different models (which he would then avoid allocating to again unless forced). Living Image fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 21:27
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I like that change in the few FAQ. It's going to help me hold onto objectives from combat units in my back field. Look man, people can be as upset as they want that they can't just roll through with their smashy boys to wreck poo poo, but it loving sucks being on the receiving end of that when a unit outflanks or deepstrikes and just wrecks your poo poo. No matter how I position my stuff, it doesn't matter once CC units arrive. Here's an example from my last game, where my dunecrawler, techpriest and skitarii were all charged, even though there was no room for the wulfen to attack my Skitarii.  I like that they specified that you can't assault if there's no space now. It means positioning is more important than ever, and assaulters will have to think twice before rushing in.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:28
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Corrode posted:BEASTS as well, for Wraiths and the Dark Eldar ones. The getting started in 8th FAQ that MSP is actually pretty specific. When scaling a wall (moving up or down), if you cannot end your move on a floor, you use wobbly model.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:31
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TTerrible posted:You should play 30k instead. Its ladder support is out of this world. I don't know why you play such a crude, dumbed-down game when the rule books for 2nd edition and rogue trader are still out there.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:32
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Zuul the Cat posted:I like that change in the few FAQ. It's going to help me hold onto objectives from combat units in my back field. And it sucks to be an assault army where you can't charge the enemy at all because they're sitting on the second floor.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:33
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Zuul the Cat posted:
It also means you cant assault up without fly. Which is dumb as gently caress for obvious reasons. Also, in that photo, if you told me I couldn't assault because there was no room, I'd declare wobbly model and tell you I'm sitting on the wall that slopes up. Boon fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 21:33
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Booley posted:The getting started in 8th FAQ that MSP is actually pretty specific. When scaling a wall (moving up or down), if you cannot end your move on a floor, you use wobbly model. What part of "stable position" means "inside a wall wherever I like" to you? Wobbly model is nowhere near as broad as that, go and read it again. It talks specifically about having to balance a model and it falling over, not about just ignoring terrain altogether.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:36
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Zuul the Cat posted:I like that they specified that you can't assault if there's no space now. It means positioning is more important than ever, and assaulters will have to think twice before rushing in.  Shooting was already strong and it just got stronger.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:38
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This is why I wish there was some method to directly attack ruins if there’s a bunch of guys sitting on top immune to charges. Like, units in base to base with the ruin can put their attacks into it, or roll a D6 for every model and do mortal wounds on a 5+ as the ruins get their foundations knocked to poo poo. It’s a ruin, by its ruined nature it probably isn’t a very stable platform!
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Apr 18, 2018 21:42
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Floppychop posted:Right, because assault has always been way too strong and needs to be toned down *Incredible Hulk sad walking away music plays as Slamguinus and Captain Smashfucker walk into the setting sun, their possessions in bindles over their shoulders*
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Apr 18, 2018 21:42
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Kilazar posted:Still catching up, so if thid has been said already, I apologise. I am (irritatingly) well aware of this. The Commander used the Homing Beacon to ensure a charge that ended up being not necessary, the Crisis Suits used a traditional Manta Strike.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:43
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Badablack posted:This is why I wish there was some method to directly attack ruins if there’s a bunch of guys sitting on top immune to charges. Like, units in base to base with the ruin can put their attacks into it, or roll a D6 for every model and do mortal wounds on a 5+ as the ruins get their foundations knocked to poo poo. It’s a ruin, by its ruined nature it probably isn’t a very stable platform! Finally, a use for krak grenades!
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Apr 18, 2018 21:44
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Floppychop posted:Right, because assault has always been way too strong and needs to be toned down Combat units are very good this edition. Pure combat armies mostly aren't. That seems fine?
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Apr 18, 2018 21:44
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Badablack posted:This is why I wish there was some method to directly attack ruins if there’s a bunch of guys sitting on top immune to charges. Like, units in base to base with the ruin can put their attacks into it, or roll a D6 for every model and do mortal wounds on a 5+ as the ruins get their foundations knocked to poo poo. It’s a ruin, by its ruined nature it probably isn’t a very stable platform! Tell the person on the ruins that since everything is LOS that only the couple of models at the front can fire since the rest can't shoot through the floor at the unit down below.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:45
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DancingShade posted:Tell the person on the ruins that since everything is LOS that only the couple of models at the front can fire since the rest can't shoot through the floor at the unit down below. That's already true though.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:46
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Corrode posted:What part of "stable position" means "inside a wall wherever I like" to you? Wobbly model is nowhere near as broad as that, go and read it again. It talks specifically about having to balance a model and it falling over, not about just ignoring terrain altogether. What part of "when scaling a wall and cannot end on a floor" implies to you that you can't end a move partway up a wall? If you can't do that sector mechanicus terrain is functionally unusable for units without fly, since it's 5" high. Chapter Approved says that to go up/down sector mechanicus terrain you must use a ladder, wall, or girder. With a normal 6" move, you need to spend 1 turn moving all your models to surround a girder (you can't do this if your unit is more than maybe 6 models). On the next turn, you move them all down to the bottom. On the third turn, you can start moving places. If you have a 10 man unit you need to wait another turn for the second half of your unit to move down. A typical advance move won't help. If you can, as that FAQ implies, end a move partway down a wall/girder/ladder, then it takes a total of 2 turns to move a unit off the structure, and they're already started moving places when they get down. A typical advance move will get your unit off the structure entirely.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:48
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Booley posted:What part of "when scaling a wall and cannot end on a floor" implies to you that you can't end a move partway up a wall? Step off my Ferratonic Incinerator, dog.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:51
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Well this thread took a wrong turn this evening. Back to Ad Mech love-in, what's the best loadout for a Dominus?
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Apr 18, 2018 21:52
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I mean, outside of balance arguments this seems like it makes perfect sense; if you can't in some way defy gravity it's kind of silly to be able to just swing a knife at someone a floor above you. I mean you might as well not have vertical positions in that case. It's not like it's impossible to assault them without fly anyways; all you need to do is kill a model with something else (as few armies are all-shoot or all-punch) and you immediately have a space for someone to jump up and stab in.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:53
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Booley posted:And it sucks to be an assault army where you can't charge the enemy at all because they're sitting on the second floor. I agree, but be real. That's not the scenario. It's not like this rule is going to make assault armies completely unviable. It's only if there's no room to place one of your models, and it's not like every single unit I have is on the second story of buildings or higher. Only infantry can go up. It just means you'll need to get more tactical when making those charges by clearing out some of the infantry first, then charging. Fire at the unit to clear some out, then charge. Or, charge the other stuff that is on the ground. Lungboy posted:Well this thread took a wrong turn this evening. Back to Ad Mech love-in, what's the best loadout for a Dominus? I like the Volkite Blaster because of the ability to do mortal wounds. But if you take multiple, take one Eradication Beamer. Macrostubbers are my stock choice just because the phosphor serpenta is more points and hasn't really ever done anything for me. I've used different relics. Anzion's Psuedogenetor is great for if you're going to get charged. It's like cawls Mechadendrite Hive, but just adds D6 extra attacks. The Autocadeuceus of Arkhan Land is really great for healing extra wounds, so take this if you have a lot of multi-wound stuff or are going to use your techpriest as backfield support. These are the only two relics i've usually taken. What forgeworld are you running? Zuul the Cat fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 21:54
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Lungboy posted:Well this thread took a wrong turn this evening. Back to Ad Mech love-in, what's the best loadout for a Dominus? I like Eradication Ray, Phosphor Serpenta
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Apr 18, 2018 21:56
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Booley posted:What part of "when scaling a wall and cannot end on a floor" implies to you that you can't end a move partway up a wall? Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot completely end its move on a floor of ruins when attempting to scale the walls? A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome guidelines in the core rules to identify with your opponent where your model’s actual location is. Wobbly Model: "Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your painted model damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position..." The answer is 100% about what happens if your model can finish on a floor but not safely to stop it falling off. There's nothing about that that contradicts the general rules, which don't allow you to end your move within a wall or floor. Scaling a wall and placing it on nothing at all isn't "delicately balancing", it's levitating. That doesn't make the Sector Mechanicus stuff "unusable." Your unit will have a hard time getting off it and moving away, but at the same time opposing units are going to have a hard time reaching you. That seems fine? That's a trade-off you make for deploying them there - they're probably going to stay there unless you plan well in advance, but they are well protected.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:57
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