|
Maxwell Lord posted:Padme is the ultimate naive, well-meaning liberal. She genuinely believes the system works, or when it doesn't that it can be fixed. She does what she can but it wears her down in the end. Which makes sense; she's a rich girl born into aristocracy and its associated privileges. The system works pretty well for her. It makes me wish Anakin was characterized less as "whiny teen who's mad the Jedi don't let him do stuff," and more overtly "pissed about how he was raised as a slave in a system where the Republic is complicit via political negligence." I mean, by some measure that aspect is in there, but his stated political ethos is, "someone should make the Senate agree." It's about the system being ineffectual, not about the system actively benefitting from exploitation. Palpatine shouldn't be a Hitler analog, is what I'm saying: he should be Lenin.
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 01:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 05:14 |
|
|
rear end Catchcum posted:But the stuff about Padme being a queen at 13 requires critical thinking that I dont think the author did. There is no reason for it, it doesn't make any sense, and there's no good reason that it would happen. It's just a cool set piece: A tranquil kingdom ruled by a child. You're asking how a 13 years old girl could be an elected leader, when that question answers itself: Padme was elected. She was simply more popular than the other candidates. And her victory was obviously not because of her charisma. She's a book-smart kid genius - too young to have actual experience, but so well-read that it didn't matter Half the characters in Phantom Menace are child prodigies forced into roles they aren't actually prepared for. It's, like, the major point of the film (and of Star Wars in general): the indoctrination of children. What happens when kids grow up wanting to be Luke and Leia - considering them flawless paragons of virtue? What if they actually obtained that power? They'd be like Padme and Anakin. This isn't really difficult to figure out. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jan 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:02
|
|
|
You'd think Padme would get Anakin some counseling after he murdered a bunch of people if she cared about him so much. Which is why this is the result: Obi-Wan Kenobi: I have seen a security hologram... of him... killing Younglings. Padme: No! Not Anakin! He couldn't... ." Padme, he admitted to killing a bunch of Sandpeople children not several years before. This shouldn't be that surprising.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:11
|
|
|
Yep. Jedi children are real to her in a way that Sand People children aren't.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:13
|
|
|
How did a 70yo overweight cheeto pussy-grabbing tv show host get elected? The plot of this reality is so unrealistic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:14
|
|
|
Teek posted:You'd think Padme would get Anakin some counseling after he murdered a bunch of people if she cared about him so much. Which is why this is the result: basically everyone minus palpatine in the prequels is guilty of denying what's right in front of them, padme's not special in that regard and y'know anakin did try to get counseling but just got pablum about how attachments are bad
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:15
|
|
|
Killing a tribe of Tusken Whole Milk Raiders and killing Jedi Younglings isn't the same buuuuuut there were kids in that camp. So yeah, that's some bad writing George.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:15
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:Killing a tribe of Tusken Whole Milk Raiders and killing Jedi Younglings isn't the same buuuuuut there were kids in that camp. So yeah, that's some bad writing George. 'people are racist' is not bad writing, it is accurate writing
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:17
|
|
|
I guess I should also add that at this point, Padmé herself is expecting to bear one of those Jedi children. This time around, the slaughter is something that could happen to her own child.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:20
|
|
|
Sure but Padme never stood out as particularly racist in the PT. Unless you consider all that poo poo before the Gungan truce on Naboo as her being racist.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:20
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:Sure but Padme never stood out as particularly racist in the PT. Unless you consider all that poo poo before the Gungan truce on Naboo as her being racist. why wouldn't you consider that her being racist
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:22
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:Sure but Padme never stood out as particularly racist in the PT. Unless you consider all that poo poo before the Gungan truce on Naboo as her being racist. She's not an out-and-out racist who actively looks down on other kinds of people. If you asked her, she would say all the correct things about how all sentients are equal and deserve respect and so on. Unfortunately, there are other, more insidious kinds of racism. For example, basically no one in the US gives a poo poo about about the millions of people who have been hurt by our wars in the Middle East. That sort of thing is distant and we don't have to live through it, so it doesn't feel truly real.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:27
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:why wouldn't you consider that her being racist She didn't do anything in the events of TPM that gave me that impression. Maybe I didn't understand exactly what kind of relationship the Naboo had with the Gungans prior to them uniting agaisnt the Trade Federation occupation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:30
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:She didn't do anything in the events of TPM that gave me that impression. Maybe I didn't understand exactly what kind of relationship the Naboo had with the Gungans prior to them uniting agaisnt the Trade Federation occupation. What she had to do to get the Gungans to help gives you a clear idea of the relationship the Naboo had with the Gungans before that moment.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:33
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:She didn't do anything in the events of TPM that gave me that impression. Maybe I didn't understand exactly what kind of relationship the Naboo had with the Gungans prior to them uniting agaisnt the Trade Federation occupation. The Naboo people invaded and colonized the Gungan planet, naming it after themselves. Decades or centuries later, Padme consciously panders to the Gungans in order to assimilate them into the liberal multiculture of the Republic (aka The Empire). She's pretty racist.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:37
|
|
|
General Dog posted:I've warmed on AoTC a good bit, but while the overall arc of the prequels is good, there are some central plot threads specific to the episode that don't resolve very clearly. Namely, how did the plot to assassinate Padme tie into everything else? Was the intent always to lead the Jedi to the clone army, or was that just a happy coincidence? If the Jedi were supposed to find the Clone Army, why was Kamino erased from the Jedi Archive? What is the point in knowing who ordered the Clone Army if it's someone we never knew and is never expanded upon? There are some direct references in AOTC to Chinatown. The endless rabbit holes, meaningless asides, constant red herrings is a trope in noir. For a more recent example, see Inherent Vice. The plot of the movie is deliberately opaque to the point of being a farce. AOTC is more or less reaching for that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:40
|
|
|
homullus posted:What she had to do to get the Gungans to help gives you a clear idea of the relationship the Naboo had with the Gungans before that moment. She appeases Boss Nass by reminding him of their peaceful cohabitation and then begs them for help.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:42
|
|
|
ungulateman posted:Star Wars Episode IX: Except It Was Just A Prank, Bro Episode IX: As a GOOF edit: SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Naboo people invaded and colonized the Gungan planet, naming it after themselves. Decades or centuries later, Padme consciously panders to the Gungans in order to assimilate them into the liberal multiculture of the Republic (aka The Empire). She's pretty racist. That's not racist, it's speciesist. Nobody calls you a racist for locking your dog outside. kiimo fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jan 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:43
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:She appeases Boss Nass by reminding him of their peaceful cohabitation and then begs them for help. Have you ever heard a colonial politician speak to an indigenous group before? It's all "we're in this together progress is slow but sure with the power of friendship so anyways that's why we need more of your land and resources again last time I swear" stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 02:57
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:You're asking how a 13 years old girl could be an elected leader, when that question answers itself: Padme was elected. She was simply more popular than the other candidates. The reaction "I don't think the author thought critically about this" really just means "I don't want to think critically about this." But the disgust at how stupid all of this is is part of the appropriate reaction to it. Like there's no way George Lucas was going to direct a great love story between two young actors. Han and Leia only worked because Harrison Ford was willing and able to call his bullshit from time to time. Again, my go to example is Yoda fighting with a Lightsaber. The idea is fundamentally ridiculous. It doesn't matter how badass it is because the more badass they make it the more it becomes blatant self-parody.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:04
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:She appeases Boss Nass by reminding him of their peaceful cohabitation and then begs them for help. Would she have to do that if they already had a good relationship, one based on equity and respect? "We haven't been murdering you, and so as queen I beg you on my knees for your help" isn't the thing you say when you have been getting along.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:06
|
|
|
And part of the irony is, this naive 13 year old girl pulls off something that the Naboo have never managed because she's the only one who ever honestly tried. She's a lot easier to understand in the era of Trump.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:08
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:I'm glad that you haven't seen any truly bad movies.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:09
|
|
|
The Naboo didn't have a violent relationship with the Gungans during the time period of TPM or in the past. They didn't have bff relations with each other or whatever prior to the Trade Fed invasion but it wasn't like the two societies were fighting each other over territory on Naboo. Did some comic book or EU story come out that says contrary or what?
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:17
|
|
|
They aren't on speaking terms with each other. They co-exist through segregation. How much more do you need to know?
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:19
|
|
|
Sorry dudes, I wasn't ready to call Padme a full on space racist and give George the great writer award and wanted to chat about it. I'll concede she's a bad character either way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:26
|
|
|
Weird thoughts, especially on a day that (at least in my country) celebrates Western colonial powers genociding the indigenous population and then complaining that they aren't happy about, you know, being genocided
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:27
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:The Naboo didn't have a violent relationship with the Gungans during the time period of TPM or in the past. They didn't have bff relations with each other or whatever prior to the Trade Fed invasion but it wasn't like the two societies were fighting each other over territory on Naboo. And if they weren't fighting for territory, why do no Naboo live in Gunganville, and why is the only Gungan on the surface an exile? They have a very clear demarcation and it isn't a friendly line. You don't exile people to places that are friendly and welcoming.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:28
|
|
|
ungulateman posted:Weird thoughts, especially on a day that (at least in my country) celebrates Western colonial powers genociding the indigenous population and then complaining that they aren't happy about, you know, being genocided I definitely didn't engage in this discussion because of that or whatever else you're insinuating.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:30
|
|
|
The point isn't that Amidala is a space racist. The actually relevant power dynamic is that their society has been blockaded by the Trade Federation to compel the Naboo to sign a treaty which will give the Trade Federation legal control over the planet and it's resources in the eyes of the Republic. The Republic barely knows or acknowledges that the Gugans exist, so the treaty would be on their behalf as well. Amidala recognizes that she has no real right to sign on behalf of the Gugans as well as the fact that both cultures should reject the "negotiations." She's quite heroic in TPM. Then, as a great post awhile back details, every aspect of her heroism is systematically killed off in Attack of the Clones by the patriarchal romantic myth until she is reduced to "motherhood." e: This is one way of looking at why Anakin has visions of her dying in childbirth. The environment shown around Anakin and Amidala in the Republic is very patriarchal (we see that it is different when they visit Naboo). But the effect is so bad that Anakin is afraid that once she is a mother, it will smother the person he loves completely. And he ends up contributing to that instead, in terribly direct ways, through his desperate attempts to escape that fate. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Jan 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:30
|
|
|
homullus posted:And if they weren't fighting for territory, why do no Naboo live in Gunganville, and why is the only Gungan on the surface an exile? They have a very clear demarcation and it isn't a friendly line. You don't exile people to places that are friendly and welcoming. True enough! But I do think people can not get along with their neighbors for whatever reason without actually hating them or doing so because of their race or feeling like they're below them. Anyway, what does the canon say about Naboo after the Clone Wars? Are the Gungans and Naboo still pals or what?
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:36
|
|
|
AndyElusive posted:True enough! But I do think people can not get along with their neighbors for whatever reason without actually hating them or doing so because of their race or feeling like they're below them. I'll be that guy who reads the Wiki so you don't have to, but I'll only look at Legends if there's no answer in the normal canon because gently caress having to read the deutrocanonical Star Wars wiki for an answer unless I have to. (I love that there is one of those for Star Trek as well).
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:42
|
|
|
Okay, so basically the Gugans who are the indigenous people of the planet. The colonists who became the Naboo showed up and "tensions" arose between the Gugans and Naboo. There's probably some story about what in the Legends canon. The two cultures segregated from that time until Padme shows up and actually talks to one of them with some authority. The Naboo and Gugans still seem to be pals even in the days of the Empire and its culture still seems to be fundamentally shaped by Amidala, but the planet's place in the New Republic is profoundly shaped by its place as Palpatine's home world. Naboo culture (implicitly the human culture and not the two cultures of the planet) is idolized by the First Order as that of the homeland of the Emperor.
Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jan 26, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 03:49
|
|
|
kiimo posted:Episode IX: As a GOOF Hahah holy poo poo man. After a day of trump this is too much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 05:01
|
|
|
Teek posted:For what it's worth I really wish this line of thinking wasn't so prevalent. e: Boy this was two pages too late whoops
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 05:20
|
|
|
The key to how even Padme and the Naboo are and stay space racist in the prequels is Jar Jar Binks. Binks is a) Anakin and Padme's native buddy, b) their imaginary friend, and c) a space racist caricature. Even though they make peace and have a happy ceremony and Gungans get a representative in the Senate, the Naboo don't get to know the Gungans more closely and ask them to choose their wisest, cleverest, most ambitious, or most qualified leader. They just picked literally the only Gugan they knew, who conveniently happened to be an easily manipulated rube.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 05:45
|
|
|
Jar Jar Bink starts TPM having been exiled from his people onto the world above By AOTC, he's been made senator, effectively exiling him from his whole drat planet onto Coruscant.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 06:08
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Jar Jar Bink starts TPM having been exiled from his people onto the world above Yeah, they also get the guy the Gungans are just as happy to get rid of.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 07:11
|
|
|
Padme tricks the gungans into making a suicidal attack on the professional droid army by bowing to their leader, begging from her knees for his aid. Boss Nass likes that for the first time probably ever, one of the Naboo has acted as if they aren't superior to the gungans. He agrees to help. She smirks at how clever she's been.
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 11:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 05:14 |
|
|
General Dog posted:I've warmed on AoTC a good bit, but while the overall arc of the prequels is good, there are some central plot threads specific to the episode that don't resolve very clearly. Namely, how did the plot to assassinate Padme tie into everything else? Was the intent always to lead the Jedi to the clone army, or was that just a happy coincidence? If the Jedi were supposed to find the Clone Army, why was Kamino erased from the Jedi Archive? What is the point in knowing who ordered the Clone Army if it's someone we never knew and is never expanded upon?
|
|
#
?
Jan 26, 2017 12:26
|
|
